Gen Chaovalit Appointed As Supreme Commander Of People's Army Of Thailand

[Siripon]

As Highly Caffeinated has nominated me the Defense Council for Thaksin, I will endeavor to answer his/her questions.

1) Did Thaksin engage in corruption during his time in office?

There certainly were a lot of shady business dealings going on- but many of them can be attributed to Newin Chidchob, who later switched to the Dems. But then, business like this has always been the norm in Thailand and was even attributed to the "Asian Tiger" phenomenon by the international community (called "Asian Capitalism) up until the 1997 financial crisis. But was he ever convicted of corruption? The most the courts ever convicted of was the land case involving his wife... and as we have seen from recent events, land appropriations by high profile members of the Thai community are by no means unusual (although convictions based on them seem to be.)

2) Did Thaksin engage in criminal behavior during his time as PM?

Refer to my above answer, unless you are referring to the rape of the Democrats at every election

3) Did Thaksin abuse his authority in order to further enrich himself?

Refer to my first answer.

4) Did Thaksin initiate an anti-drug campaign that resulted in thousands of extrajudicial deaths?

Did he initiate the anti-drug campaign? Or was he merely facilitating the behavior and agendas of hardliners within the military? This does not excuse the role he had to play in the events- but it might be worth noting that the campaign was endorsed by the Buddhists (including the Santi Asoke sect, who are now central to the PAD but were once strong supporters of Thaksin) and received a very high degree of support amongst the Thai community as a whole. Perhaps what we are now seeing is an attempt by the Thai elites to shed themselves of guilt for their complicity in the matters and to externalize them onto Thaksin himself?

5) Did the party that Thaksin represented engage in massive electoral fraud during his time in office?

So the (until I find a direct source I'll say "allegedly") Constitutional Court found- although similar and widely substantiated claims against the Democrats have been dismissed.

6) Did Thaksin use his money and power to silence voices of his opposition and the media during his time in office?

I think you'll find that the Bangkok Post and the Nation were just as negative about him prior to his being sacked as they are now. Well, perhaps not quite. But since the coup, Thailand's place on the International Press Freedoms table has gone backward, not forward, with hundreds of radio stations shut down, censorship and self-censorship in the press, the results of polls being edited, the military influence over state media and telecommunications networks and the politicization of the Monarchy through the Lese Majeste laws.

7) Did Thaksin misrepresent his assets when assuming a role in government?

Did he? Last I read he was acquitted of that prior to the coup.

8) In the last year or two has Thaksin made any public calls for revolution?

Peaceful revolution. Kinda like the Green revolution, Saffron revolution and Orange revolutions of the past. Do you oppose those as well?

9) If they were to assume control of government, would the PTP whitewash Thaksin of any criminal activity he may have engaged in?

I would hope that he receives equal justice.

10) Have red shirt organizations used violence to prevent opposition politicians from speaking in Northern/Northeastern cities?

Have some sensitivity. They are referred to as "Thaksin's dogs" by the PM's spokesman, lampooned as "uneducated and corrupt" in the national press, had their democratically elected PM and constitution taken away, are terrorized by the military and have their radio stations shut down, and you tut-tut them for not giving the Democrats a "fair go?" Level the playing field across the board, and they will play ball.

11) Have red shirt leaders threatened violence to judges, politicians, or any other citizens?

Hang on, who's the ones with the military backing them?

12) If elections were held next month, would every politician of every party be able to freely campaign everywhere in Thailand without fear of violence or personal harm?

See question 10. There are a lot of sore wounds in the country at the moment. This country literally stands on the brink of civil war- and if there is going to be any peaceful solution, it will need to be mediated by a third party and ideally enforced by an international peacekeeping force. No, I'm not joking.

1.Most of the damage done to the state was done by Thaksin changing laws to financially benefit his companies.

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Thaksin's insistence on provincial governors meeting targets( like his sales targets for AIS) meant names were put on lists without verification, an anonymous note from someone wishing ill for a business rival could be suffice- people were executed without trial and Thaksin in inflammatory speeches prior to the campaign condoned killings with harsh language.

5 Yes, but they would still have won the election

6.Yes, every Thai TV station had programmes critical of Thaksin removed, every newspaper was threatened with withdrawal of adverts from both AIS and state organisations if they published critical articles. Don't think about the English language papers, that's only a tiny part of his pressure.

7. He lied, how can anyone honestly forget they have transferred millions of baht to their servants and then go repeatedly to the bank with the servants to withdraw the money- for what? Stock manipulation springs to mind.

2 or 3 of the judges in that case admitted they did not use legal criteria to judge it.

8. Sure, Songkran last year he urged the Thai people to rise up and seize the provincial halls. He also agreed with Panlop's army a few days ago.

9 -?

10. 100% haven't you seen the Love Chiang Mai 51 in action?

[bacchanal]

Thaksin was as corrupt as any past leader of Thailand has been

No, he wasn't.

Thailand's Auditor-General Khunying Jaruwan stated that corruption of every sort exists at unprecedented levels under the present administration.

- The Nation / Nov 14, 2004

His corruption was in the multi-Billions compared to multi-millions of the past. Which isn't to excuse the past corrupt leaders, but it helps to keep it in perspective and to highlight that no prior leader was in the same league with him. "Unprecendented" as someone in the know, Khunying Jaruwan, described it. To equate his corruption with the past and off-handed say he was no different from the past is to soften (apologize, if you will) his corruption.

To point out your mispeak also helps to keep things factual and accurate.

Edited February 9, 2010 by bacchanal

[bacchanal]

Dancing in the rain is a little more than symbolism for the red shirts.

It f**king pours down every time there is a major red shirt rally, no matter what season it is, often for hours on end.

See? Even God is trying to get them to wise up.

[rixalex]

His corruption was in the multi-Billions compared to multi-millions of the past. To equate his corruption with the past and off-handed say he was no different from the past is to soften (apologize, if you will) his corruption.

Quite so.

Almost all Thai leaders have been corrupt in some way, just that Thaksin really excelled at it. That's not a compliment by the way.

[johncitizen]

Go ahead. Attribute it all to one person, if you are really that gullible- the rest of those involved would love you to do so.

[ballpoint]

Go ahead. Attribute it all to one person, if you are really that gullible- the rest of those involved would love you to do so.

We're not attributing it all to one person. I'd say the vast majority of anti Thaksin posters on here would love to see someone with teeth going after all corrupt politicians, military, police, private businessmen and anyone else who deserves it. (But who is to say who deserves it? Who is to say at what level it begins?) I would like to see every baht being accounted for, every criminal trial taken to a fair conclusion and every one abusing his position for personal gain suitably punished.

Indeed, it is because of this sense of fair play, that I am so anti Thaksin. Okay, we may disagree over the means used to remove him. We may disagree over the current assets trial, but much of the evidence presented in that trial can by no means be called contrived by those against him, and much of that evidence thoroughly damns the man's self enriching practices while being PM. We may disagree over his effectiveness as PM - I'd still like to see what long lasting steps he took to improve the education and lives of those in Isaan. Why did he buy out the same old corrupt politicians there rather than start with fresh new TRT people? His effectiveness was largely propaganda. Not to say he didn't do anything good during his six years in charge, but he could have done much better, and surely would have if his desire to improve the lot of the poor was sincere. But why should it be? The same old faces the poorly educated poor always vote for were in his pocket. He didn't need to change anything. He rode the wave of global economic good times. He thought he could do what he wanted. He broke the law and should be punished for it. It doesn't matter to his case that others have not been punished, although I'd like to see it happen. It doesn't matter to his case that he may have done some good as PM. He broke the law. He abused the trust the people put in him. To put it in another Australian analogy, Alan Bond did much good for Perth, particularly Fremantle, almost single handedly being responsible for its renaissance when he brought the Americas cup to Australia. A number of years later he was convicted following a dodgy money transfer to prop up his company. Do you think the court considered releasing him because of the good he'd done? Should justice work that way? Interestingly, Alan Bond did his time and is now back on the Australian "200 most richest list", a scenario that Thaksin probably could well have followed had he admitted his crimes and taken responsibility for his actions. Instead he sits in Dubai, blaming everyone but himself, and plotting ways to stir up trouble in Thailand. This "Peoples Army" business just being the latest. (Phew, got it back on topic at the end there).

Edited February 9, 2010 by ballpoint

[jackspratt]

Wiki dat <deleted>: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_...ion,_April_2006

Oh, and concerning the snap election

1. Doing so in a political crisis is a perfectly legitimate way of demonstrating that you have the peoples mandate. Which is kinda the aim of the game in a democracy. We have a similar mechanism in Australia, called a double dissolution.

.............................

If you are going to quote how things are done is Australia, please feel free to state the facts.

A double dissolution (of both the lower and entire upper house) can only be called when the government fails to have it's proposed law(s) passed (in the upper house) in 2 sittings of the parliament - hardly a political crisis.

If the government wishes to confirm its mandate, it can call an election at any time, at which time the lower house and half the senate (upper house) must stand for re-election. Nothing to do with a double dissolution.

Of course, Australia has had a number of coalition governments, with the Nationals joining with the Libs.

If the Nats (for whatever reason) decided to abandon the Libs while in government, and swap to Labor, it would be perfectly legitimate for a Labor/Nat coalition government to be formed, or for the largest party to govern as a minority government if there was no coalition.

[animatic]

SMALL PARTIES CHANGING SIDES IS SUCH A STANDARD THING IN MANY PARLIAMENTARY COALITION GOVERNMENTS THAT IT NO LONGER GETS MUCH COMMENT.

But get so endlessly here, by the losing side complaining about it.

The grapes are mighty sour in these redlands.

[jdinasia]

Wiki dat <deleted>: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_...ion,_April_2006

Oh, and concerning the snap election

1. Doing so in a political crisis is a perfectly legitimate way of demonstrating that you have the peoples mandate. Which is kinda the aim of the game in a democracy. We have a similar mechanism in Australia, called a double dissolution.

.............................

If you are going to quote how things are done is Australia, please feel free to state the facts.

A double dissolution (of both the lower and entire upper house) can only be called when the government fails to have it's proposed law(s) passed (in the upper house) in 2 sittings of the parliament - hardly a political crisis.

If the government wishes to confirm its mandate, it can call an election at any time, at which time the lower house and half the senate (upper house) must stand for re-election. Nothing to do with a double dissolution.

Of course, Australia has had a number of coalition governments, with the Nationals joining with the Libs.

If the Nats (for whatever reason) decided to abandon the Libs while in government, and swap to Labor, it would be perfectly legitimate for a Labor/Nat coalition government to be formed, or for the largest party to govern as a minority government if there was no coalition.

Thanks for that ... I just can't be bothered to look up Austrailian parliamentary procedures

[animatic]

it is the contrary that is in existence today.... that reds are trying their darnest to force their own one sided agenda on to the general public.... but fortunately, the majority of the students and the general public are not buying such devious scheme....

-------

even general chaovalit himself came out and made statement for thai reporters that he has no part in whatever movement that whoever was trying to organize for the benefits of whomever....

Nakachalet makes one particular point.

Where are the Uni Students for the Red side. Even pre uni students.

In ALL successful past public uprisings, Uni Students were in the forefront ALWAYS.

Yet there seem to be NONE on red lands side? There were many that look like thugs

last Songkran, but not students. Interestingly enough.

Why might that be? Oh too middle class you say? Co-opted by the elite you say?

Or just nothing to hang their hats on that they give a rats patootie about in your platform?

Or maybe they are so internet informed, and on top of the issues they see through this charade

and vote with their butts, by in staying in their seats.

Heck even Chavolit says he isn't involved in any wildness planned from above.

And with no the students you don't get change... not much of a grass roots movement then.

[scorecard]

Go ahead. Attribute it all to one person, if you are really that gullible- the rest of those involved would love you to do so.

Sure many people in this country, past and present have been involved in corruption and in many cases for very very large amounts of money.

But because MANY people have been involved over a long period doesn't mean it's OK.

Every person you gets into corruption (steals money from the common wealth of the country) know that there is risk involved. Every person who steals knows that there is a chance that you just might be the person who gets caught.

You take the risk, the axe falls on you (for whatever reason), you take the punishment. It's a very simple formula. not difficult at all to comprehend.

Let's look at another angle. Many people have murdered other people and never been caught (all countries). So perhaps we should have a law that says "because some murderers have never been punished we will therefore (to be fair / to ensure there are no double standards) not punish any murderers at all".

Would you like to live in a country where the law works on this concept?

If the law did operate like this then that country would in fact be lawless and something like Somalia where there is no functioning police, people can murder and rape at will with no recourse to punishment, and the ruthless no morals / no values toughest thugs are the controllers of every aspect of life.

[animatic]

Doing up Thaksin for corruption makes others think twice about it,

if they can, because it holds up the mirror and says ;

'Now there ARE consequences for your actions, even if you are a big fish.

Beware... '

If prosecuting Thaksin makes ANYONE back off on graft and corruption a bit,

that is still progress in the right direction. Oh but the all do it...

well if the do it less because of this, that's still good.

Chavalit knows if he gets too close to this fire,

he will spend his dotage in a very uncomfortable position.

So he is distancing himself but still hoping he can reaps some retirement cash and glory.

Edited February 10, 2010 by animatic

[Steve2UK]

it is the contrary that is in existence today.... that reds are trying their darnest to force their own one sided agenda on to the general public.... but fortunately, the majority of the students and the general public are not buying such devious scheme....

-------

even general chaovalit himself came out and made statement for thai reporters that he has no part in whatever movement that whoever was trying to organize for the benefits of whomever....

Nakachalet makes one particular point.

Where are the Uni Students for the Red side. Even pre uni students.

In ALL successful past public uprisings, Uni Students were in the forefront ALWAYS.

Yet there seem to be NONE on red lands side? There were many that look like thugs

last Songkran, but not students. Interestingly enough.

Why might that be? Oh too middle class you say? Co-opted by the elite you say?

Or just nothing to hang their hats on that they give a rats patootie about in your platform?

Or maybe they are so internet informed, and on top of the issues they see through this charade

and vote with their butts, by in staying in their seats.

Heck even Chavolit says he isn't involved in any wildness planned from above.

And with no the students you don't get change... not much of a grass roots movement then.

"Statement of the Students’ Federation of Thailand on a Possible Coup

A reader forwarded us this statement of the Students’ Federation of Thailand — and we are posting it here for your information. As with other statements posted here, posting does not necessarily reflect the position of PPT.

*

1 February 2010

A Forewarn of “People’s War”

Due to the recent movement of the army, there exists a concern that it will eventually lead to a coup and a demolition of demonstration for democracy. Threats and intimidations, direct as well as indirect ones, towards people movement have dispersed widely among the army. These are nicely done through expressing political opinions to call for peace and defending the country but behind those words are a cruel message to the people not to build up any movements with the same old excuse about ‘national security’, even though the dispute and the unstable situation right now are all caused by the inappropriate role of the army by supporting the bureaucratic elites into the power. People movement who are fighting for democracy can absolutely not tolerate this.

Until today, the army still insists their old role to defend the ‘security’ of the bureaucratic elites more than that of democracy and the people. They even claim in harmony their readiness to protect the bureaucratic elites and demolish the people who call for democracy all over the country that can come to be an obstacle. These actions leave us interpret no other but that they have made themselves clear that they are ready to do everything even a coup.

To this situation, the Student Federation of Thailand holds a concern towards the country, the democracy, the people and even to the army themselves that if a coup really happens again, ‘people’s war’ or the resistance of the people all over the country who want democracy will occur for certain and it will be a war which continues until the very end until the army has to surrender.

Accord to this concern, we would like to call the army and declare our intention towards the current situation and in the future as following:

1. We would like to the army to concern about the consequences that will follow if there is a coup to demolish the people. The consequences will not be as convenient as the previous coups in the history. People whose moral and conscience are lifted have crossed beyond the point of ignorance like before and will therefore object until the absolute.

2. We, the Student Federation of Thailand, together with our student networks all over the country, have a clear stand to act against the coup and stand besides the people’s struggle for democracy, including the ‘red shirts’. If there is eventually a coup, we are ready to mobilize students and people who want democracy to fight with the coup until the end.

Forewarning to the People’s war

Democracy will eventually win!"

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.co...-possible-coup/

[jdinasia]

Steve ---

Is that available in English or Thai from any group actually associated with the Students’ Federation of Thailand or the group itself ?

[hammered]

The problem Thailand has and the problem with this kind of rhetoric that assumes democracy lovers across the country will unite is that the politcal divide is as much regional as class based. There certainly would not be any countrywide uprising.

Still the rhetoric and propaganda from all sides and interested parties heat up. The Asia Sentinel article elsewhere is worth a read imho

Edited February 10, 2010 by cdnvic
excessive quoting removed

[jdinasia]

Hammered --- I think the newmandala article that was posted recently is well worth a read too.

[nakachalet]

chris, pearson--if you are the responsible author/writer of this topic,

would you kindly identify the primary thai source of your article....

there are several of us who are very interested in the original thai text and find out more about this student federation.... and the contributors of the writeup.... as written in your ariticle....

thx in advance for your assistance....

Edited February 10, 2010 by cdnvic
excessive quoting removed

[cdnvic]

Please do not modify or reply inside other quotes as it makes the page messy and difficult to read. One post that was beyond repair was removed as it was difficult to tell who was saying what. Further posts that do this will be deleted without notice.

[Steve2UK]

chris, pearson--if you are the responsible author/writer of this topic,

would you kindly identify the primary thai source of your article....

there are several of us who are very interested in the original thai text and find out more about this student federation.... and the contributors of the writeup.... as written in your ariticle....

thx in advance for your assistance....

I suspect Chris Pearson is just the website designer rather than responsible for any of the editorial content of PPT etc........

For those wanting more information, SFT's Facebook page includes an e-mail address for them: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=267496560122 . It doesn't (yet) include the quoted statement, though their statement on the 3rd anniversary of the 2006 coup is there in both Thai and English.

From what I see on a certain other Thailand-based expat forum that we're not allowed to name, PPT's English-language version is translated from the Thai version which can be viewed here: http://www.prachatai.com/journal/2010/02/27558

Bangkok Post reported on 3rd February that "[paraphrase] seven members of SFT submitted a letter to the US embassy in BKK calling on the US government to review its policy of supporting Thailand's military because the assistance provided was used to suppress Thai people calling for freedom and democracy." Link not allowed, but Google "Anuthee Detchthewaporn" - SFT chairman - to find the report (no mention in The Nation AFAIK).

[nakachalet]

steve2uk

thx....

stupid me.... der LOL

chris, pearson--if you are the responsible author/writer of this topic,

would you kindly identify the primary thai source of your article....

there are several of us who are very interested in the original thai text and find out more about this student federation.... and the contributors of the writeup.... as written in your ariticle....

thx in advance for your assistance....

I suspect Chris Pearson is just the website designer rather than responsible for any of the editorial content of PPT etc........

[bertram]

It doesn't (yet) include the quoted statement

That's interesting. So an official organizational website that posts "Here you'll get updated about the latest events and movements of our group" doesn't contain the alleged organizational statement, but the alleged organizational statement is posted on another website, not from any named official member of the organization, but "from a reader."

Edited February 11, 2010 by bertram

[nakachalet]

bertram dear

it is called multilayers orgination within another multilayers organization.... organized for another off shore multilayers organization....

It doesn't (yet) include the quoted statement

That's interesting. So an official organizational website that posts "Here you'll get updated about the latest events and movements of our group" doesn't contain the alleged organizational statement, but the alleged organizational statement is posted on another website, not from any named official member of the organization, but "from a reader."

[jdinasia]

chris, pearson--if you are the responsible author/writer of this topic,

would you kindly identify the primary thai source of your article....

there are several of us who are very interested in the original thai text and find out more about this student federation.... and the contributors of the writeup.... as written in your ariticle....

thx in advance for your assistance....

I suspect Chris Pearson is just the website designer rather than responsible for any of the editorial content of PPT etc........

For those wanting more information, SFT's Facebook page includes an e-mail address for them: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=267496560122 . It doesn't (yet) include the quoted statement, though their statement on the 3rd anniversary of the 2006 coup is there in both Thai and English.

From what I see on a certain other Thailand-based expat forum that we're not allowed to name, PPT's English-language version is translated from the Thai version which can be viewed here: http://www.prachatai.com/journal/2010/02/27558

Bangkok Post reported on 3rd February that "[paraphrase] seven members of SFT submitted a letter to the US embassy in BKK calling on the US government to review its policy of supporting Thailand's military because the assistance provided was used to suppress Thai people calling for freedom and democracy." Link not allowed, but Google "Anuthee Detchthewaporn" - SFT chairman - to find the report (no mention in The Nation AFAIK).

My issue with the SFT is we can't see much about it at all. Seven members may be all that they really have.

[wayfarer108]

Question for the red-shirt sympathisers and Thaksin apologists:

* Do you seriously believe that Thailand will remain a democracy if Thaksin manages to reinstall himself as 'leader'?

Er... remain?

I think you will find that Thaksin was the only PM ever to be elected twice. And I don't recall any election taking place since the Yellows started pissing in their own pool.

Col Thaksin is not the only PM to have been elected twice, there have been several. Check your history, or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website.

[Richard W]

And, let's not forget, we're talking about Australia, that great paragon of democracy where a legally elected PM may be kicked out by the UK Queen's representative (or was it the CIA?).

I understood that the Queen of Australia appointed her representative on the basis of Australian advice.

[Richard W]

Please do not modify or reply inside other quotes as it makes the page messy and difficult to read. One post that was beyond repair was removed as it was difficult to tell who was saying what. Further posts that do this will be deleted without notice.

It would help if the forum software were fixed so that long posts can be replied to point by point. (I have raised this on the support forum, to no avail.) Unfortunately, a more sophisticated defence against excessive quoting is needed.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Richard W

[animatic]

Update:

PM Abhisit: Thaksin's new 'people's army' will cause chaos in country; rules out talks with Gen Chavalit, leader of Thaksin force.

-- TNA 2010-02-04

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

i have it on very good authority that Abhisit is on the way out mainly as my sources say because he does not have friends in the right places to keep him in.

Wanna eloborate, what's you "good authority"?

your suggestion flies in the face of numerous poles etc.

The public support for the Abhisit / Korn team is growing continuously.

Scorecard, I must agree.

In hindsight this smith491 poster was not a bit prescient.

I wonder who he has comeback as?

Edited November 17, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

Many of them also harbour massive resentment a third readily identifiable group within Thailand, and that is the Farang/Ex-Pat community and rich looking western tourists...

Under those circumstances we could be held hostage or worse... and would afford the "People's Army" a considerable bargaining chip when dealing with the governments of the western world.

After all, every regional Immigration office holds our addresses on file, and tourist hotels are easily identifiable.

Wow! talk about some overt paranoia! If you really feel that is even a REMOTE possibility then I suggest you get on a plane and land somewhere safe. Fast!

Well it's 9 months later and they haven't come for me yet to use as leverage against western governments. I feel so inconsequential! Ok not really.

[animatic]

Basically this is sabre-rattling in the lead up to the 26 February court decision about confiscating Thaksin's fortune.

Well it does seem he did pull out his sabre and hack away.

Problem was it was a little too small, or dull, to cut the cord.

Some of the things in this thread are delicious to read in hindsight.

Especially with Chavalit's week of misquotes and mental misadventures.

And Thaksins assorted missives on historical happenings and attempts

to coattail ride on them.

Edited November 17, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

The red shirts are completely factionalized and disorganized,

and not the monotheistic democracy movement it pretends to be.

One hand doesn't know that the other is doing, and it shoots itself in the foot almost daily.

Sadly those who truly want more democratic say in Thjailand are co-opted by a supurious leadership

that is more interested in power and control than any democratic ideals.

Oh and are also cynical enough to embrace Thaksin for the profit center he represents.

john Q :

hardline or loyalist factions who would see power regained just as it was taken away from them,

Well finally you state the obvious.

This is a fight over POWER, not about the democratic ideals.

The multiple Thaksin mis-steps lost the Red Side it's power and control of the coffers

they want the power back, so must gin up PHILOSOPHICAL reasons

to create public dissention and disturbences. Charade upon deceit's.

Other wise they have to WAIT.. Oh god forfend,

till the regular election cycle comes about again.

No profit in that course. Wait...

To the streets, fight injustice, man the barricades!

How accurate was I... Too much for my comfort I fear.