Sondhi

[rixalex]

Well this thread is quiet, I thought it would be full of the thaier than thai yellow shirted farangs writing at length about how it is all Thaksins fault and that Sondhi is in fact a genius of the highest calibre, a freedom fighter and a lone crusader against corruption.

Along the same sort of lines in a recent thread on a Human Rights Abuses report concerning the current government, a poster predicted that before long the thread would be full of yellow-shirted, Abhisit apologists defending his record. It never happened. Why? Well because that poster's assumption, and yours, that anyone who speaks out against Thaksin must therefore be a yellow shirt / PAD member / Democrat Party supporter, is simply a figment of your distorted imagination.

sadly that is the way this forum is, people need to pigeon hole others.

Why would you be sad about it when you yourself were doing it?

[eggomaniac]

Ricardo,

I agree with you that Forum rules about 'modifying' Posts make point by point discussion very difficult.

Like you say, it WOULD be better if a Reply could interject, in a different color, with out modifying.

Maybe there could be a button where a Poster gives permission to do this.

I apologise for surmising you are a Yellow supporter. Supporting either the Reds or the Yellows is like choosing a Vega or Pinto as your favorite car. They are both worse than rent a wrecks.

As a partial apology, I thought you said Sondhi started the Yellow movement to fight corruption, which IS the Yellow movements belief. You did, though, say his actions uncovered corruption. Maybe it did, but, in my 'opinion', his actions pushed other examples of corruption, his, under the carpet.

Here are some questions around one of my main points of curiosity concerning Sondhi and his reasons for starting PAD.

What ever happened to the investigation into the B40,000,000,000 in questionable loans that Viroj, Sondhi's banker, promoted to Top banker by Thaksin?

Are these still being looked at or did airport closures the sacking of 3 elected PM's and 'banning' of 111 elecetd members sweep that discussion off the table.

Was it even Thaksin who initiated the investigation or an independant banking auditor? My understanding was that Sondhi was still crony buddies at the time these huge financial issues broke; Sondhi calling Thaksin the "greatest Prime Minister Thailand ever had."

Was the B2,000,000,000 in loan forgiveness to Sondhi, which his crony pal at the time, Thaksin, engineered as an act of corruption, being revisited around that time?

If not, is that 2 billion forever to be 'forgotten'??? [if somone chimes in with it ONLY 1 billion, that would be funny. Also, it was over 1 Billion with more in the works.]

I mean now that Sondhi got rid of all the corrupt politicians, why can't this scurlious action by Thaksin, Sondhi and Viroj be given a second look?

What is Viroj doing now? probably not jail, can I take a 'wild' guess? some cushy upper level banking position, you think?

----------------------------------------

B40,000,000,000 isn't small change folks. Thats $1,200,000,000,000 1.2 TRILLION.

Where did that money go? What happened to investigation? What happened to the investigators?

let me take a 'wild' guess. hmm maybe not

Well this thread is quiet, I thought it would be full of the thaier than thai yellow shirted farangs writing at length about how it is all Thaksins fault and that Sondhi is in fact a genius of the highest calibre, a freedom fighter and a lone crusader against corruption.

A crook is a crook, and Sondhi is no saint, after all he used to be one of Thaksin's good friends & allies. But like many others, he gradually saw through the 'people's hero', stopped supporting him, and then began exposing corruption by Thaksin/TRT.

He was only ever one of several leaders of the PAD, so is definitely not a lone crusader, why would anybody ever think that he was ? His original motivation certainly included trying to get back, at someone who he had initially regarded as a friend, but it still had the positive effect of exposing a lot of corruption.

If only the UDD or PTP were to follow this example, rather than being a cheering-team for one particular ex-PM, then they might be more effective in encouraging democracy & freedom. But perhaps there are reasons why exposing corruption is low on their priority-list ?

Ricrardo, why did Sondhi NOT feel disposed to expose the corruption BY Thaksin that Sondhi directly benefited from? I ALREADY know Thaksin was and is a crook and dangerous to the future of Thailand, so I don't NEED 10 pages 'education' about him.

However, I could use some enlightenment on whether Wikipedia is accurate concerning the facts? that, when Thaksin gained Office, he raised the banker of his crony pal, buddy, Sondhi's banker to the Top banking position in the country, whereby they promptly FORGAVE Sondhi over a billion in debts. [That's $40,000,000 in real money folks.] Can you address this Topic, or start one of your own if you want to diatribe what we already know about Thaksin?

Do YOU really think it's impossible to think they are BOTH scoundrels? In my opinion, it's NOT a case of one of them being Mr. Right and the other being Mrs. Wrong!

Hearing YOUR leader talk about corruption makes me turn purple.

If you stick handle the above point in Wiki, by actually addressing the Issue, then maybe somebody could clarify how the same banker, according to Wiki, got under investigation for Bhat 40,000,000,000 in murky loans and then fired. Is this all just Red propoganda planted in Wiki, huh? <<< This deflection of accounting appears to be Sondhi's original intentions. He didn't care if he threw Thaksin, an airport or two, and Thailand under the bus to change the topic of conversation.

Now that he is rich, again, has he ever made moves to repay whoever it was who lost all that money to HIM? or is that his reward for being a national hero?

I don't even think it was Thaksin who started looking all of the above corrupt money dealings, but Sondhi sure made sure attention was taken off those things, didn't he?

Just confirm or deny these historic events, please. i do NOT need 10 pages about Thaksin to cover up these allegations. I don't like Thaksin, EITHER.

-------------

You know what, Thailand is heading for 'more' troubles than it has already seen, in a very troubled past.

If the Yellows stay encamped, it is more of the same; if the Reds win the day it will just be a different kind of MESS.

Where to begin ?

Wish I could insert replies to each of your many points, using another colour to show which were my own comments, and which were yours, but forum-rules don't allow that, even if it might be clearer that way.

And next time you respond to something I post, please don't modify my post by underlining certain sections, this is against forum-rules. I don't make the rules, but I do try to follow them, as I don't wish to have a 'holiday' or get banned.

1. I have no idea (but can make a guess) why Sondhi didn't raise corrupt events which involved himself, ask him, not me ! I don't speak for him, indeed agreed with the gist of the OP and Tonywebster, when I said "Sondhi is no saint".

2. I'm not offering 10 pages of comment, especially about Thaksin, am I ? Where did I say that ?

3. I personally would regard Wikipedia as a not-terribly-reliable source, given its ease of ammendment, and discussing Wikipedia would indeed be off-topic, so I won't, Thanks !

4. I don't wish to, and have not, posted a diatribe about Thaksin, so why do you say I should ?

5. I do agree that it's perfectly possible that they're both scoundrels, nowhere in my post did I say that one was Mr Right & the other Mrs Wrong, please re-read my post and I think you'll understand that. IMO one is a bigger scoundrel, and one a smaller one, who still shows-up for his court-cases.

6. Nether Thaksin nor Sondhi is "my leader", I haven't said they are, why do you allege that ?

7. I could care less what colour you are, or may turn to. But don't go having a heart-attack or stroke, please !

8. Is Sondhi all that rich again now ? If so, he should consider clearing his old debts, and Thaksin might consider that he now owes the poor people at Temasek a bit too, for having bought his business at-the-peak !

9. I don't particularly agree with your claim that Sondhi is "a national hero". I'd view him more as one of the leaders of a useful pressure-group which, especially in its early days, did the nation a service by exposing corruption in the government.

10. I'm not trying cover up any allegations, and wouldn't.

Can't a chap agree with Tonywebster that Sondhi is not perfect, and is not a lone crusader against corruption, without you jumping all over me ? Thank Heavens that I didn't also comment on his "genius of the highest calibre" or "freedom fighter" status !

Edited February 9, 2010 by eggomaniac

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Ah' well Mr.Thaksin didn't start to make Thai Politics,

but he got his hands badly bruised in trying to till the power

balance, into his favor, which failed badly!

Yes... When Thailand matures as a democracy, that power balance will have been tilled.

It will likely take better men than Thaksin or Sonthi to do it though.

Edited February 9, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Ricardo]

As a partial apology, I thought you said Sondhi started the Yellow movement to fight corruption, which IS the Yellow movements belief. You did, though, say his actions uncovered corruption. Maybe it did, but, in my 'opinion', his actions pushed other examples of corruption, his, under the carpet.

Thank you for your PM, and the above.

It often takes a (little) thief to catch a (bigger) thief. He was undoubtedly an early beneficiary of TRT political-favouritism, this was always known at the time, which is why I said that "Sondhi is no saint". This is indeed all ironic and a little amusing at times.

I try to look at the 'public good' which arose out of this, the exposure of corruption to the harsh light of day, the avoidance in some stumbling imperfect way, of what IMO might very easily have turned into a direct dictatorship.

Also the establishment of the fact that, with prosecutions against both Thaksin and Sondhi, it is seen that nobody in the political arena is totally above the law.

I hope for a better future, I think Thailand is slowly moving that way, it will take many short steps and decades to get there.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Ricardo

[tonywebster]

Well this thread is quiet, I thought it would be full of the thaier than thai yellow shirted farangs writing at length about how it is all Thaksins fault and that Sondhi is in fact a genius of the highest calibre, a freedom fighter and a lone crusader against corruption.

Along the same sort of lines in a recent thread on a Human Rights Abuses report concerning the current government, a poster predicted that before long the thread would be full of yellow-shirted, Abhisit apologists defending his record. It never happened. Why? Well because that poster's assumption, and yours, that anyone who speaks out against Thaksin must therefore be a yellow shirt / PAD member / Democrat Party supporter, is simply a figment of your distorted imagination.

sadly that is the way this forum is, people need to pigeon hole others.

Why would you be sad about it when you yourself were doing it?

Really? is English you native tongue? I sometimes wonder.

[eggomaniac]

moderators

Merge?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Man-Jail-Son...ul-t358567.html

[geriatrickid]

whichever way you look at it, politics are a ridiculous waste of time. What you read/see in the media is probably only 1/10th of the real story, so who's to trust when they're all crooks?!?!?!

well a ridiculous waste of resources and freedoms, also, and not just in Thailand. The root cause of the dis-functioning and underachieving of democracies, everywhere, is the Party systems of politics.

They are like a modern day form of elitism where the PM, or president, becomes dictator for 4 years.

The 6 Nations of aboriginal North America have the oldest, 800 year, and most successful democracy, ever. Benjamin Franklin is said to have adopted some of their concepts in building the American form of democracy.

The mistake HE made, even though he is revered as genius, was NOT copying the whole design. THEN he would have been a genius!

If the Reds achieve their goal of repatriating Thaksin as President of a Republic, it will set back Thailand's chances of achieving it's great potential by at least one, probably two, decades. The long standing suppression of their voices will be replaced by the suppression of other 'elements', which will NEVER sit well with the whole of Thai Society.

It would lead to something Thailand has not seen for decades, stability: a stable garbage scow, NOT the the luxury liner that Thailand could be. I have talked to red shirts, yellow shirts, and, most importantly, white shirts, the Silent Majority, about my plan for stability, peace AND prosperity in Thailand. They all like it, but you what? It would spoil the 'fun' of gangland politics.

Huh? The Iroquois Confederacy as a democracy? It was 5 nations not 6 btw, and if anything it shared some similarities to Thailand. In particular, whatever was done by the separate nations, or the confederacy, was subject to review by the warriors. The warriors (the equivalent of the military class), had the right to call councils when they wanted and approve or disapprove public measures. And so careful were the civil authorities to pay deference to the warriors that general answers to questions of state policy were postponed until the opinions of the soldiers might be known. The Iroquois Confederacy practiced slavery. Today in Thailand we have a modern form where the poor are sold off to brothels or sent to low paying factory or servant jobs.

You make the statement that the reds intend to repatriate Thaksin as President. Where has any leader of the UDD made that statement? Your response is going to send alot of people scrambling to distance themselves from you because it just screams out, hey look at me, I have delusions of grandeur. "I have talked to red shirts, yellow shirts, and, most importantly, white shirts, the Silent Majority, about my plan for stability, peace AND prosperity in Thailand. They all like it, but you what? " Your plan and they all like it. Right. Have you considered the possibility that maybe they are just being polite or afraid of the raving foreigner and give a response sufficient to buy some time as they get as far away from you as fast as they possibly can?

You don't like party politics. Ok, that's swell. Unfortunately, parties are the product of people that share similar goals or that can agree on a platform. By working together, they are able to achieve some of their goals. You have not even explained how your system would work. All I see is the usual cop out that all politicians are crooks.

Know what? The politicians we elect are a reflection of our society. If we elect a group of crooks it is because we set the conditions to elect crooks. Take a look at what happens when politicians do the right thing and stand up; They are tossed out of office by constituents angry that the elected official didn't deliver some goodie to the riding/district. Considering how much privacy a politician gives up and the daily intrusions they must deal with, is it any wonder why we do not often get the best person for the position. What sane successful would I take a pay cut, give up his/her personal life, allow him/herself to be pestered 24/7 by losers, suffer death threats and have everything he or she does criticized?

[Bangyai]

Who is Sondhi's partner? Answer this and the whole picture is clear! Answer this........ you'll possibly..have to... leave .... country!

Indeed. I wonder how much truth there is behind this widespread bit of gossip. Looking at Sondhi he doesn't come across as a ladies man at all.

[eggomaniac]

whichever way you look at it, politics are a ridiculous waste of time. What you read/see in the media is probably only 1/10th of the real story, so who's to trust when they're all crooks?!?!?!

well a ridiculous waste of resources and freedoms, also, and not just in Thailand. The root cause of the dis-functioning and underachieving of democracies, everywhere, is the Party systems of politics.

They are like a modern day form of elitism where the PM, or president, becomes dictator for 4 years.

The 6 Nations of aboriginal North America have the oldest, 800 year, and most successful democracy, ever. Benjamin Franklin is said to have adopted some of their concepts in building the American form of democracy.

The mistake HE made, even though he is revered as genius, was NOT copying the whole design. THEN he would have been a genius!

If the Reds achieve their goal of repatriating Thaksin as President of a Republic, it will set back Thailand's chances of achieving it's great potential by at least one, probably two, decades. The long standing suppression of their voices will be replaced by the suppression of other 'elements', which will NEVER sit well with the whole of Thai Society.

It would lead to something Thailand has not seen for decades, stability: a stable garbage scow, NOT the the luxury liner that Thailand could be. I have talked to red shirts, yellow shirts, and, most importantly, white shirts, the Silent Majority, about my plan for stability, peace AND prosperity in Thailand. They all like it, but you what? It would spoil the 'fun' of gangland politics.

Huh? The Iroquois Confederacy as a democracy? It was 5 nations not 6 btw, and if anything it shared some similarities to Thailand. In particular, whatever was done by the separate nations, or the confederacy, was subject to review by the warriors. The warriors (the equivalent of the military class), had the right to call councils when they wanted and approve or disapprove public measures. And so careful were the civil authorities to pay deference to the warriors that general answers to questions of state policy were postponed until the opinions of the soldiers might be known. The Iroquois Confederacy practiced slavery. Today in Thailand we have a modern form where the poor are sold off to brothels or sent to low paying factory or servant jobs.

You make the statement that the reds intend to repatriate Thaksin as President. Where has any leader of the UDD made that statement? Your response is going to send alot of people scrambling to distance themselves from you because it just screams out, hey look at me, I have delusions of grandeur. "I have talked to red shirts, yellow shirts, and, most importantly, white shirts, the Silent Majority, about my plan for stability, peace AND prosperity in Thailand. They all like it, but you what? " Your plan and they all like it. Right. Have you considered the possibility that maybe they are just being polite or afraid of the raving foreigner and give a response sufficient to buy some time as they get as far away from you as fast as they possibly can?

You don't like party politics. Ok, that's swell. Unfortunately, parties are the product of people that share similar goals or that can agree on a platform. By working together, they are able to achieve some of their goals. You have not even explained how your system would work. All I see is the usual cop out that all politicians are crooks.

Know what? The politicians we elect are a reflection of our society. If we elect a group of crooks it is because we set the conditions to elect crooks. Take a look at what happens when politicians do the right thing and stand up; They are tossed out of office by constituents angry that the elected official didn't deliver some goodie to the riding/district. Considering how much privacy a politician gives up and the daily intrusions they must deal with, is it any wonder why we do not often get the best person for the position. What sane successful would I take a pay cut, give up his/her personal life, allow him/herself to be pestered 24/7 by losers, suffer death threats and have everything he or she does criticized?

It was 5 Nations until the 6th joined. That is why it is called The Six Nations. duh? BTW FYI

didn't explain my Plan - can't is the correct terminology forum rules and Thai laws prevent discussions on subjects that would have to be revisited if Thailand is to have any chance.

I don't mind predicting the next 100 years will like, or worse, than the last 80,, pity though..

OH and what UDD leader ever denied there are plans to reinstate Thaksin as head of the Government???

Have you followed this issue at all?

[enginerevision]

Well he did it again:

The PAD has its own New Politics Party (NPP) but Panthep said they did not discuss party matters with the prime minister and just conveyed NPP leader Sondhi Limthongkul's message of concern over safety of people if the government ran an early election

[Gary A]

I have a question. How many corrupt veteran politicians who are known thieves are in jail? Why is Thaksin the only one sentenced to jail? I guess it depends on what side you are on. Changing sides can be profitable.

[rixalex]

I have a question. How many corrupt veteran politicians who are known thieves are in jail? Why is Thaksin the only one sentenced to jail? I guess it depends on what side you are on. Changing sides can be profitable.

Thaksin is indeed one of the few politicians sentenced, but just like all the others who have avoided sentencing, he too is successfully managing to avoid having to face justice. Sentencing someone doesn't really mean much if justice isn't able to follow through with dishing out punishment.

As to why Thaksin has been singled out whilst others ignored, i think that has everything to do with the fact that having been caught with his hands in the till, he refused to simply do what all the others have done and lay low out of the spotlight for a few years.

Now i have a question for you Gary. Rather than coming at this issue from the angle of "how come Thaksin gets sentenced but others don't", which makes it appear like you feel Thaksin is unfairly treated and that you favour letting him evading justice because others have, why not take the view that Thaksin being sentenced was a great step forward, and push now for not only him to accept his punishment like a man, but also for there to be more steps in prosecuting others like him?

[Gary A]

Wealth means power and wealthy powerful people are admired regardless of how they got wealthy. Powerful politicians and their sons are able to get away with murder here in the Kingdom. (Chalerm).

The first thing needed is for the Thai people to WANT to eliminate corruption. That won't happen until the courts are independent and can follow the money. At that point they can bring charges against those who are unreasonably wealthy. Thaksin bought the courts when he lied about his assets. He would never had become prime minister if he had not bought the courts. It is the balance of corruption that is in question. One side is as bad as the other. Neither side cares about the people.

[rixalex]

Wealth means power and wealthy powerful people are admired regardless of how they got wealthy. Powerful politicians and their sons are able to get away with murder here in the Kingdom. (Chalerm).

The first thing needed is for the Thai people to WANT to eliminate corruption. That won't happen until the courts are independent and can follow the money. At that point they can bring charges against those who are unreasonably wealthy. Thaksin bought the courts when he lied about his assets. He would never had become prime minister if he had not bought the courts. It is the balance of corruption that is in question. One side is as bad as the other. Neither side cares about the people.

I don't think you addressed my question.

Anyway, with regards your point that it needs Thai people to WANT to eliminate corruption first, for it to happen, i don't totally agree, although obviously it would help.

For me i think the first step is having the people right at the top of the food chain setting examples for everyone else. Take for example the police force. How can we really blame the local underpaid bobby for taking back-handers when he sees his bosses right the way to the top doing the same?

[kissdani]

Everyone in Thai politics knows Sonthi's murky past, The Nation and Thai papers exposed all his shady financial actions years ago.

But he wasn't the PM and he wasn't changing laws to benefit his clan and ensure he would remain untouchable.

It is no coincidence that the New Politics Party are similar to Palang Tham in the past, both emphasise ethics over size, and of course both have Jamlong.

As with Palang Tham, the New Politics Party will have minimal influence in the near future.

The battle was won, even if temporary, Thaksin fled, the Democrats have taken over, no need for Sonthi now.

I think you have confused Sondhi with General Sonthi Boonyaratglin. They are two different people.

There are different ways how to transcribe or spell the media moguls name in Roman/Latin letters. 'Sondhi' seems to be the most common choice, but 'Sonthi' is also in use now and then. The usage of the later can cause some confusion because of another public figure where the more common transliteration for the name is 'Sonthi', the general.

The hint and clue about which of them is the talk usually comes with the context, as it is the case in the entry above.

'Sondhi' or 'Sonthi' the name of both persons can be spelled both ways.

Google "Sonthi Limthongkul" and "Sondhi Boonyaratglin" with the quotation marks and you will see.

edit to add:

Siripon don't got the name wrong nor the persons mixed up and the one who is confused is Pakboong.

Edited May 7, 2010 by kissdani

[enginerevision]

I have a question. How many corrupt veteran politicians who are known thieves are in jail? Why is Thaksin the only one sentenced to jail? I guess it depends on what side you are on. Changing sides can be profitable.

Simply to say: He's the only man who did something very wrong, that was not liked with the other elites.

[Ijustwannateach]

Once again, and still, threads about Thai politics are currently against subforum policy (see the pinned topic). This has been going on long enough now that I am issuing warnings for violators. When the times have cooled down, this policy will be subject to review. Until that time, please follow subforum guidelines. Topic closed.