Northshore - What Is Happening

[NSBistro]

I have followed ThaiVisa for many years, but have never posted before as I have never been so angry before.

I live in Northshore. For a long time there has been a lot of infighting between various factions. The manager, Paul, a nice man who runs a wonderful building, has been supported by one faction and hated by another. Something to do with sale and rental of condos. I do not get involved in all this squabbling. I just want to live in peace and enjoy my nice condo.

In mid December we had an owners meeting, with proxies being bought and sold. A new committee was elected and was of the faction that hated Paul. Nevertheless a motion to dismiss Paul with 30 days notice (in line with his contract) was defeated with about 70% against.

3 Weeks after the owners meeting, the committee dismissed Paul without notice or compensation. He was literally chucked out. He now has a legal claim against the owners for breach of contract. I heard he is suing for millions of baht and that we will have to pay.

The last straw came yesterday when a fellow owner told me he had a buyer back out of a deal to buy his condo. The agent said the buyer heard about the trouble and was willing to give up his 50,000 baht down payment. The agent suggested to the seller that he drop the asking price by 20-25%.

If any of the new committee behaved badly. If any of them are reading this please stop it. Let us enjoy the good life and protect our investment.

[jackdawson]

note to self; continue to NOT buy property in thailand

[jackdawson]

note to self; continue to NOT buy property in thailand

[FarangBuddha]

Condominium purchase and ownership can be problematic in well regulated environments like the USA (where you get a couple inches of disclosure documents when you make a purchase offer). I could never imagine buying such a major purchase in Thailand where there is little to no disclosure when making buying a condo unit.

[DonTron]

tax free rental returns in the 12-16% range....

Note to self, KEEP bying properties in Thailand

[jackdawson]

^

sure we believe u

btw, how long have u been selling real estate

[syd barrett]

In Northshore the cost of apartments ranges from 6 million to 38 million. {THB} But I have a drinking buddy who rents for 22,500 pcm.

Which option makes financial sense?

[gmac]

tax free rental returns in the 12-16% range....

Note to self, KEEP bying properties in Thailand

12-16% return.....

Note to self, DON'T rent from Don Tron

[sharecropper]

tax free rental returns in the 12-16% range....

Note to self, KEEP bying properties in Thailand

12-16% return.....

Note to self, DON'T rent from Don Tron

Not to self: DON'T let anyone else negotiate my real estate deals for me if Don Tron can get 12-16% on the buy price in a lousy rental market like Pattaya!

[Abrak]

I am not an expert in Thai Law but the way you describe matters doesnt seem in keeping with the 2008 Condo Act.

As far as I know the Management Committee is not in a position to terminate the JP Manager.

The Manager's term of office is ended in one of the following cases :

15.1 Death

15.2 Being adjudged as a bankrupt person

15.3 Being ordered by the court to be incompetent or quasi-incompetent person

15.4 Expiry of the current term

15.5 Resignation

15.6 Being withdrawn from the position by resolution of a General Meeting

Given they cant dismiss him, I am slightly unsure how he is suing for unfair dismissal (unless the committee claim one of the above and it turns out to be untrue.)

I also believe that the management committee can be held personally liable for damages caused to co-owners by the management committee without proper authorisation.

I would however check with either the Chairman of the management committee (and/or the minutes from the last General Meeting at the Land Department) on what grounds the Manager was dismissed and by whom. It is possible the vote didnt go as you imagined. I would also check whether the Manager had a valid work permit.

As a basic concept in a Condominium, the appointment and dismissal of the Manager (under normal circumstances) can only be made by the co-owners.

Assuming he isnt dead, bankrupt or legally incompetent he is still the Manager.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Abrak

[jb4446]

I am not an expert in Thai Law but the way you describe matters doesnt seem in keeping with the 2008 Condo Act.

As far as I know the Management Committee is not in a position to terminate the JP Manager.

The Manager's term of office is ended in one of the following cases :

15.1 Death

15.2 Being adjudged as a bankrupt person

15.3 Being ordered by the court to be incompetent or quasi-incompetent person

15.4 Expiry of the current term

15.5 Resignation

15.6 Being withdrawn from the position by resolution of a General Meeting

Given they cant dismiss him, I am slightly unsure how he is suing for unfair dismissal (unless the committee claim one of the above and it turns out to be untrue.)

I also believe that the management committee can be held personally liable for damages caused to co-owners by the management committee without proper authorisation.

I would however check with either the Chairman of the management committee (and/or the minutes from the last General Meeting at the Land Department) on what grounds the Manager was dismissed and by whom. It is possible the vote didnt go as you imagined. I would also check whether the Manager had a valid work permit.

As a basic concept in a Condominium, the appointment and dismissal of the Manager (under normal circumstances) can only be made by the co-owners.

Assuming he isnt dead, bankrupt or legally incompetent he is still the Manager.

The Manager's term of office is ended in one of the following cases :

15.1 Death....That can be arranged

[Naam]

In Northshore the cost of apartments ranges from 6 million to 38 million. {THB} But I have a drinking buddy who rents for 22,500 pcm.

Which option makes financial sense?

it is not a matter of financial sense but an indication that your drinking buddy has no money to buy any property

[Pakboong]

tax free rental returns in the 12-16% range....

Note to self, KEEP bying properties in Thailand

Rental yields in Thailand have been under 8% for a while now and dropping like a big rock. You are either a brilliant business man or incredibly lucky.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia/Th...d/Rental-Yields

[123ace]

Pattaya is overbuilt with Grade B & C middle of the road type condo's. There is a distinct lack of truly high quality condo's for sale or rent.

[thaimate]

In Northshore the cost of apartments ranges from 6 million to 38 million. {THB} But I have a drinking buddy who rents for 22,500 pcm.

Which option makes financial sense?

it is not a matter of financial sense but an indication that your drinking buddy has no money to buy any property

Naam

for an inteligent man that is a silly remark ,i could buy my detached house for cash 3 times over and still have change for a nice big BMW however i do not under any circumstances want to ,i am free and can move any time i want ,wonderfull ,liberating feeling.

[Pakboong]

Pattaya is overbuilt with Grade B & C middle of the road type condo's. There is a distinct lack of truly high quality condo's for sale or rent.

So you are calling the developers idiots for building the wrong kinds of condos? Now, why would they do that given that is their business?

[Pattaya46]

In Northshore the cost of apartments ranges from 6 million to 38 million.

"ranged", not "ranges"

That's why you now find them for sale at 5 million ...

http://classifieds.thaivisa.com/real-estat...sale-40371.html

[syd barrett]

In Northshore the cost of apartments ranges from 6 million to 38 million.

"ranged", not "ranges"

That's why you now find them for sale at 5 million ...

http://classifieds.thaivisa.com/real-estat...sale-40371.html

Thanks for the feedback. I will arrange a viewing ASAP.

[Thailaw]

In Northshore the cost of apartments ranges from 6 million to 38 million. {THB} But I have a drinking buddy who rents for 22,500 pcm.

Which option makes financial sense?

If we assume that your friend's rented condo is at the lower end (but not the bottom) of the price range, say B10 million, the rent provides an annual return of 2.7 percent, ignoring (not net of) all costs of ownership. Even at the bottom (B6 million), the return to the landlord/owner is only 4.5% annual return. Not very attractive. If it were coupled with reasonable price appreciation, the total might be attractive, but I doubt that there is much/any of that in the current (or foreseeable) market. If you own it and don't want to live in it, then renting is better than sitting vacant, but that is the only justification, certainly not as an "investment".

[Asianrider]

Couple of years on the noticeboard there was always half a dozen units for sale, the last 3 - 4 months there have 25--30 for sale with owners trying to bale out of the building. Some of them don't have realistic prices what their units are worth. One agent recently had an open viewing on a front unit 117m view, great views but listed at 23,750,000 baht, yep that's right !!

Needless to say it didn't sell, and has now been reduced. At a co-owners meeting before Xmas police were called after fighting broke out !! One of Pattaya's 5star building lol.

[Abrak]

Pattaya is overbuilt with Grade B & C middle of the road type condo's. There is a distinct lack of truly high quality condo's for sale or rent.

So you are calling the developers idiots for building the wrong kinds of condos? Now, why would they do that given that is their business?

For a start there is a distinct lack of high quality people in Pattaya.

And really does anyone make a profit from building high quality condos (possibly TCCC). I mean Northshore seems quite successful but has anyone spotted Raimon actually declaring a profit at any point in the last 5 years. If you want to know how to build condos look at LPN.

[Penkoprod]

Couple of years on the noticeboard there was always half a dozen units for sale, the last 3 - 4 months there have 25--30 for sale with owners trying to bale out of the building. Some of them don't have realistic prices what their units are worth. One agent recently had an open viewing on a front unit 117m view, great views but listed at 23,750,000 baht, yep that's right !!

Needless to say it didn't sell, and has now been reduced. At a co-owners meeting before Xmas police were called after fighting broke out !! One of Pattaya's 5star building lol.

This will be "the quality tourists and residents" City Hall is trying to attract, then huh?

Penkoprod

[sharecropper]

Couple of years on the noticeboard there was always half a dozen units for sale, the last 3 - 4 months there have 25--30 for sale with owners trying to bale out of the building. Some of them don't have realistic prices what their units are worth. One agent recently had an open viewing on a front unit 117m view, great views but listed at 23,750,000 baht, yep that's right !!

Needless to say it didn't sell, and has now been reduced. At a co-owners meeting before Xmas police were called after fighting broke out !! One of Pattaya's 5star building lol.

Maybe they were fighting because they thought a selling price of in excess of 200,000 Baht psm was too LOW! Made the condo look less classy, or something.

[Tarqin]

I get confused is Northshore the one where they left the steel structure exposed for some 10 years after the last property crash?

If so I wouldn't be buying there for the long term. Quote from structural engineer I know 'even in Africa they would have torn it down and started again'.

[Pattaya46]

I get confused is Northshore the one

where they left the steel structure exposed for some 10 years after the last property crash?

Yes it is.

I you can afford it, better to buy in the 2nd tower, that is then 10 years younger than the main one.

But only big apartments and very expensive prices (at least when the built it).

[sharecropper]

Had they taken the 6 months to dismantle the original structure and piling, and then seeing what VT7 looks like so close to the beach, I wonder how many more condos they could have fitted on that piece of land and to what height.

But for them it was a toe-dip into the Pattaya market. Sadly, as so many others have learned, Pattaya is not a forgiving city when things go badly, on a personal or business level.

[Guderian]

I live in Northshore. For a long time there has been a lot of infighting between various factions.

What a surprise. I've lived in two different condos here, and have friends living in several others, and they all seem to have the same problem with various 'factions' bitching and moaning at each other. I'd say it's probably a fact of life in a large condo here. Some residents have plenty of money and want the place well-maintained. Others are less well-off and don't want to have to fork out for high maintenance fees, they're happy to see the place suffer benign neglect. A third group consists of people who own a condo but only use it for a holiday a few weeks of each year. They often seem to feel angry that they are asked to pay more and more to keep the place spick and span for what they see as largely the benefit of the full-time residents. Then you have the nationality issues - British, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, Americans (not to mention Thais) - either as co-owners or as committee members, will seldom see eye to eye. It's not really a recipe for peace and harmony, but how else to run a building?

[NormanW]

I live in Northshore. For a long time there has been a lot of infighting between various factions.

What a surprise. I've lived in two different condos here, and have friends living in several others, and they all seem to have the same problem with various 'factions' bitching and moaning at each other. I'd say it's probably a fact of life in a large condo here. Some residents have plenty of money and want the place well-maintained. Others are less well-off and don't want to have to fork out for high maintenance fees, they're happy to see the place suffer benign neglect. A third group consists of people who own a condo but only use it for a holiday a few weeks of each year. They often seem to feel angry that they are asked to pay more and more to keep the place spick and span for what they see as largely the benefit of the full-time residents. Then you have the nationality issues - British, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, Americans (not to mention Thais) - either as co-owners or as committee members, will seldom see eye to eye. It's not really a recipe for peace and harmony, but how else to run a building?

A good point, that's why I bought in a lot smaller building.

Even though, they will always be problems, it's just a matter of getting the best compromise so that the condo and its residents don't lose out and live peacefully.

Peace to all and be lucky in life.

NormanW.

[Abrak]

I live in Northshore. For a long time there has been a lot of infighting between various factions.

What a surprise. I've lived in two different condos here, and have friends living in several others, and they all seem to have the same problem with various 'factions' bitching and moaning at each other. I'd say it's probably a fact of life in a large condo here. Some residents have plenty of money and want the place well-maintained. Others are less well-off and don't want to have to fork out for high maintenance fees, they're happy to see the place suffer benign neglect. A third group consists of people who own a condo but only use it for a holiday a few weeks of each year. They often seem to feel angry that they are asked to pay more and more to keep the place spick and span for what they see as largely the benefit of the full-time residents. Then you have the nationality issues - British, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, Americans (not to mention Thais) - either as co-owners or as committee members, will seldom see eye to eye. It's not really a recipe for peace and harmony, but how else to run a building?

I think this is the biggest problem with condos in Thailand. If you look at them after ten years they look old and even if condo prices have gone up 30%, the older buildings prices havent moved. Lets say you are paying Bt40/sqm/month that is Bt8,000 for a 200sqm condo. That should be enough to get things by but with little left over. Lets say your condo is worth Bt50,000sqm and you increased common area fees by Bt5,000 (surplus money that can be spent maintaining the place). That equates I think to 0.6% of the value of the property per annum. It just seems virtually impossible to me that, that 0.6% investment wont add value and if you dont pay at least that over running costs the value of property will decline.

And really 1% would seem like a better minimum figure to invest in the common areas after costs. I would guess a 10 year dated building is worth about 30% less than new build which is approximately Bt80,000 decline per month. Probably at Bt40/sqm/month you are spending approximately nothing protecting your investment. Double fee and the relative decline should perhaps improve from Bt80,000 to maybe Bt50,000 4x the investment.

The really important point is that current maintenance costs benefit the people that use the building the most - reception, gardeners, guards. The new money is an investment for everyone in that it protects your asset value. I would never buy a condo in Thailand to live in because I wouldnt like to see it gradually become dilapidated by such inherent short sightedness.

[FarangBuddha]

Condos in Thailand are not like condos or co-ops in the West. They are designed and built for a use-life of 30 years (period of most leaseholds in Thailand). Therefore, not much put into maintaining them...they are designed to be "used-up" after 30 years and then be torn town and rebuilt (by the landowner).

Even if you "buy" a condo, you should consider it a leasehold type situation and not count on it appreciating in value over the long-term.