Sakdina - The Curse Of Modern Thailand

[Heng]

Jdinasia probably has the best grasp of the concepts involved so far on this thread.

The OP like a lot of folks around here probably has more issues with the substantial wealthy 'upper' middle class and likely has little or no contact with the real Sakdina here. The Sakdina exist but are a true minority. The people folks often despise likely have only been wealthy for a generation or two and simply are a move or two quicker or smarter than the folks they associate with, marry, etc.

[ProfessorFart]

How can he have a grasp of the concept when he doesn't even grasp the basic premise? He thinks its a caste system...LOL!

Sakdina does still exist in Thailand but it is now reclassified and rebranded as 'The Elite'. The mechanics are the same as they have ever been. You buy your way in and then you all look out for each other and protect each other's interests with lots of nice laws on your side, and lots of crap spouted to the population on your behalf.

It isn't purely a Thai thing mind you. Its a global thing. I can't think of any country where the Elite don't make self protecting laws and look out for each other.

[Garry9999]

It isn't purely a Thai thing mind you. Its a global thing. I can't think of any country where the Elite don't make self protecting laws and look out for each other.

You are right, but I think it is more prevalent in Thailand, at least compared to western countries.

[Heng]

How can he have a grasp of the concept when he doesn't even grasp the basic premise? He thinks its a caste system...LOL!

Sakdina does still exist in Thailand but it is now reclassified and rebranded as 'The Elite'. The mechanics are the same as they have ever been. You buy your way in and then you all look out for each other and protect each other's interests with lots of nice laws on your side, and lots of crap spouted to the population on your behalf.

It isn't purely a Thai thing mind you. Its a global thing. I can't think of any country where the Elite don't make self protecting laws and look out for each other.

Semantics. Just because it doesn't exactly fit a particular pigeon hole doesn't disqualify his entire post(s).

As for the "elite," I doubt you'll find more than a few dozen people who could ever agree as to what that even means. More often than not, again IMO, 'the elite' most folks refer to probably amounts to millions of middle and upper middle class locals who likely don't have any real connections or true 'ittiphon' type power whatsoever.

IMO threads of this type are usually just representative of the dissatisfaction a lot of folks have regarding their own lives, and the lives of those that they care for. It's reminiscent of the American negro of the 1970's blaming "the man" for keeping them 'down.' It's easier to point the finger at an external 'evil' than to look inward and analyze one's own failures and shortcomings.

[jdinasia]

JD. No they can't change caste in India. Please don't post such halfwitted crap. If you knew even a modicum about Asia you would know that is shit.

Seriously. This is a potentially fascinating topic but please don't fuc_k it up with your nonsense.

When you are in a position to set out what Sakdina is before dismissing all else then we have a starting point to the rest of your crap.

Thank you for the flame I invite you to do a bit of research, speak to a few educated Thai folks, look up things in India ... then get back with me

BTW .. on this topic wiki is NOT your friend

[ProfessorFart]

LOL! Another 'internet expert' trying to make out that all he does is discuss such matters with Educated Thais and Indians on a regular basis....

Seriously, show me a case of 'caste breaking' in India....

[jdinasia]

Actually I did have a long conversation about Sakdina with some educated Thais just today (and yesterday with one other educated Thai )

Like I said feel free to do some research and please skip the Wiki

[ProfessorFart]

Oddly enough so did I but I only mention that in passing. I don't need to namedrop to try and reinforce my iffy posts.

Now, how about addressing my basic point?

[surayu]

It looks very fishy....

[SpoliaOpima]

Jdinasia probably has the best grasp of the concepts involved so far on this thread.

The OP like a lot of folks around here probably has more issues with the substantial wealthy 'upper' middle class and likely has little or no contact with the real Sakdina here. The Sakdina exist but are a true minority. The people folks often despise likely have only been wealthy for a generation or two and simply are a move or two quicker or smarter than the folks they associate with, marry, etc.

True. Sakdina is a very specific, complex ranking system that was officially abolished in the late 19th century. The elites who have been shifting power back and forth since 1932 are primarily econonic interests, largely split between new money and old money.

That hasn't stopped a lot of people, including Thai academics, running around polemically claiming that 'sakdina' explains current polarisation. They are confusing sakdina with the patron-client social structure, which still very much exists and is exploited by all sides in the current political impasse.

[Douggie Style]

This is a very interesting thread as are all the posts...and a good background read to Thailand...was hoping for more posts....any more opinions on Sakdina out there??

Interestingly the system, in whatever influence it has, seems to break down in the Thai expat community...at least in Australia....although the symbolic aspects are still there...people of whatever level can suddenly find wealth and power through marriage or business and so on....I have met a few Thai in that category who don't seem to give a fig about the old ways.....which kind of suggests it really is just a culturally imposed peer system that only works in Thailand because of all the constant reinforcement....

[Garry9999]

This is a very interesting thread as are all the posts...and a good background read to Thailand...was hoping for more posts....any more opinions on Sakdina out there??

Interestingly the system, in whatever influence it has, seems to break down in the Thai expat community...at least in Australia....although the symbolic aspects are still there...people of whatever level can suddenly find wealth and power through marriage or business and so on....I have met a few Thai in that category who don't seem to give a fig about the old ways.....which kind of suggests it really is just a culturally imposed peer system that only works in Thailand because of all the constant reinforcement....

Ever noticed how rural Thais like to wear a lot of heavy gold jewelry at social and family functions. Wearing the jewelry is saying, look at me, I can afford gold, I'm not a peasant. It's an attempt to elevate social statue.

Where as Hi-So Thais and possibly expat Thais are more likely to wear light fashionable jewelry, because they don't feel the need to show their status.

[RogueExpat]

Thaksin was empowering the rural poor, which upset the elite, contributing to his downfall.

Thaksin was manipulating the rural poor to his own ends. Nothing more, nothing less.

[jdinasia]

Jdinasia probably has the best grasp of the concepts involved so far on this thread.

The OP like a lot of folks around here probably has more issues with the substantial wealthy 'upper' middle class and likely has little or no contact with the real Sakdina here. The Sakdina exist but are a true minority. The people folks often despise likely have only been wealthy for a generation or two and simply are a move or two quicker or smarter than the folks they associate with, marry, etc.

True. Sakdina is a very specific, complex ranking system that was officially abolished in the late 19th century. The elites who have been shifting power back and forth since 1932 are primarily econonic interests, largely split between new money and old money.

That hasn't stopped a lot of people, including Thai academics, running around polemically claiming that 'sakdina' explains current polarisation. They are confusing sakdina with the patron-client social structure, which still very much exists and is exploited by all sides in the current political impasse.

Point... Set .... Match

The only point I would argue is in Heng's use of "The Sakdina" .. and

only because under the Sakdina caste system everyone had a rank so everyone was "sakdina". I do understand his meaning though.

[Heng]

-The Heng

[Johpa]

Sakdina was not set up with the Chinese-Thais in mind. This ethnic group is now fully Thai and exercises power through money, networks and savvy (that's how they got the money).

The Thai Chinese got the money, along with the ruling elite of the time, the high sakdina individuals, because they were invited to become the new merchant class at the same time Thailand was moving away from a non-monetized economy to a monetized economy. The vast rural Thai peasantry, being of low sakdina, or more commonly recently freed slaves, was not immediately allowed to participate within the newly monetized economy, an economy they had no understanding of, and they continued to pay taxes indirectly through the old corvee labor system, or other favors to the local ruling elites, or by being paid below market values for their rice. As recently as 20 years ago it was very difficult for ethnic Tais up-country to have access to capital through the major banks which then only hired and loaned to Thai-Chinese.

This is not to say that the Thai Chinese are not industrious or not savvy. But they had a privileged economic position from the get go. And today, many Thai-Chinese still see themselves distinct from the ethnic Tais as do the ethnic Tais themselves. I find the OP's understanding of sakdina to be a tad weak, but if there is one politician who might epitomize sakdina, in a metaphorical sense of course as the system does not map onto the current landscape too well, is Sonthi more than Taksin. His backers are overwhelmingly the old sakdina guard and their long time partners the Bangkok Sino Thai elite. Sonthi is always putting down the rural folks as being below him and advocating a reduction in the importance of the rural vote.

[jdinasia]

hmmmmm

I would assume you are referring to being high Na and low Na ....

and I am guessing you mean Sondhi L. the guy from Manager and the PAD and not Sonthi B the General that headed the coup and is a Muslim from the S. As for Sondhi L's backers being "old sakdina guard" and "Bangkok Sino-Thai elite" ... LOL Well I am sure there are many that you might categorize that way (mostly erroneously). I would say that his backers do include some folks that would have qualifies as "High Na" in the past and certainly some Sino-Thai people. I would say far and away the real power behind that group was (note past tense) the emerging middle class that is starting to feel that it should have some of the power that its taxes represent.

But the guy driving the mercedes wouldn't typically be a high Na fellow any more than some country-come-to-city prostitute represents anything remotely related to the old Sakdina system

[ProfessorFart]

Game Set and Match I think you mean...

Have you even offered an explanation of what Sakdina is?

Has Heng?

I'm still waiting.

You really are coming over as a barstool fool.

I have asked you several times now to define just how Sakdina is a caste system.

Please reply without resorting to asking your mates to try and weigh in...

Edited February 13, 2010 by ProfessorFart

[jdinasia]

:-) You can keep waiting PF ... you enjoy your flames a bit too much for me to bother.

BTW -- other people seem to 'get it' and I have certainly not asked anyone to jump in on my behalf

[TheJoker12]

Politician H in Thailand does not go to jail because that would mean that Politician I would end up in jail too and then Politician J.

The system is based on keeping a precedent of rob the country blind for as long as you can before you get kicked out.

Thailand's problem seems to be that government is controlled purely by bureaucrats and not by industry/large companies/capitalism, therefore those in charge do not benefit by economic progress in the GDP but by robbing the country.

Thaksin = Enron. He sought to create an America style business dictates politics. See ya!

Edited February 13, 2010 by TheJoker12

[ProfessorFart]

Anyone have a degree in Asian History? Asian Studies in any respect? Any decent reading?

Having spoken to a girl who may have been a graduate doesn't count.

Nah. You're bar stool experts. You can bang on and on about your educated Thais all you want but until you actually understand the basis of the topic, then leave such matters be.

Edited February 13, 2010 by ProfessorFart

[jdinasia]

Hmmmm sorry PF but you are very clearly trolling and have all the way through this thread. So make personal remarks about me waking up a wife and I tell the facts around that and you call it 'meaningless credentials' .. earlier I mention talking to friends (educated Thais) and you say you did too. Then you attack it and call it 'namedropping; even though no names were mentioned.

But if you ask about South East Asian studies ... the answer is yes

[Heng]

The vast rural Thai peasantry, being of low sakdina, or more commonly recently freed slaves, was not immediately allowed to participate within the newly monetized economy, an economy they had no understanding of, and they continued to pay taxes indirectly through the old corvee labor system, or other favors to the local ruling elites, or by being paid below market values for their rice.

So how many hundreds of years do you think it'll take them to catch on? IMO it only takes growing up in a mom and pop style convenience store (and there are hundreds of thousands of non Thai Chinese Thais who have these) to learn all you need to know about basic business. Something is clearly missing, and IMO it's the same thing that keeps pygmies from competing in the NBA, and no, I don't mean education or a lack of basketball practice courts.

And today, many Thai-Chinese still see themselves distinct from the ethnic Tais as do the ethnic Tais themselves.

Yeah, so? What does being of a particular nationality even mean other than being a deciding factor of what color your passport is?

[soundman]

Numerous recent replies have been removed.

Please keep it on topic or refrain from posting.

[Heng]

Having such a mod note after one's post always feels like I've dozed off while in the barber's chair, but have woken with a tingly fresh shave. Wonder what I missed...

IMO the OP and likely many others have more issues with local folks with generational wealth than people who are Sakdina, who are overall a minority in that subset of the population.

[jdinasia]

"Who would have been high Na a long time ago...."

[Johpa]

Anyone have a degree in Asian History? Asian Studies in any respect? Any decent reading?

I have an undergraduate degree in anthropology, a degree whose course selection that would now be issued under the newer degree program offered in Southeast Asian studies. By the time I got a masters degree back in 1990 I had read the majority of published academic works in the social sciences wriiten on Thailand, ranging from Cornell to Manoa to Murdoch to the publishing of the Journal of the Siam Society. I have read a smaller number of works published after I left academia which tend to have a more post-modernist flavor of trans-this and trans-that. You can keep abreast of these newer publications by stopping by New Mandala from time to time.

The sakdina system was not similar to the caste system in India. It was similar to the feudal system in Europe, being a land based determinant of social status. Today capital has replaced land as the determinant of social status and this brings forth many new dynamics. Thus sakdina does not exist today apart from a metaphorical sense.

As far as readings, the best general history, IMHO, remains Wyatt's Thailand: A Short History, and Keyes' Thailand: Buddhist Kingdom as Modern Nation State. Slightly less academic but a good read is Pasuk and Bakers more recent book A History of Thailand. Check out the bibliographies in the back of these books for books and articles that focus on more specific issues and time periods.

[Groongthep]

The sakdina system was not similar to the caste system in India. It was similar to the feudal system in Europe, being a land based determinant of social status. Today capital has replaced land as the determinant of social status and this brings forth many new dynamics. Thus sakdina does not exist today apart from a metaphorical sense.

As far as readings, the best general history, IMHO, remains Wyatt's Thailand: A Short History, and Keyes' Thailand: Buddhist Kingdom as Modern Nation State. Slightly less academic but a good read is Pasuk and Bakers more recent book A History of Thailand. Check out the bibliographies in the back of these books for books and articles that focus on more specific issues and time periods.

Johpa is exactly correct. The sakdina system was a land based system where every member of society was ascribed a certain amount of "na" (as in rice fields) in accordance with their standing in society. Forum rules forbid us from discussing who obviously held the highest "na" but it included everyone. The system established a hierarchy throughout the kingdom and everyone was expected to know where they fit into that hierarchy. Some today explain the Thais' unabashed custom of asking people they have just met exactly how much money they make and their exact age as a remnant of this system. It is suggested that these questions are asked so that one can figure out just exactly where this new person fits into the hierarchy of today's society and hence how much respect they should be shown. Money is today's "na" although other factors such as the type of job one holds also play a part. College professors are usually held in higher regard in Thailand than they are in the west but skilled electricians who work with their hands are usually held in much higher regard in the west than they are in Thailand.

I have read all three of the books to which Johpa refers and highly recommend them all, especially Wyatt's Thailand a Short History. I particularly recommend this book because it encompasses much, is very readable and has a good description of what the sakdina is (was) and how it came about. If you want to read about the sakdina system in greater (maybe too much) detail I would recommend John L. Girling's "Thailand: Society and Politics".

Niels Mulder's Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life is also a classic and addresses sakdina as well.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Groongthep

[Garry9999]

Thanks Groongthep, most intelligent comment so far.

[Heng]

So how many hundreds of years do you think it'll take them to catch on? IMO it only takes growing up in a mom and pop style convenience store (and there are hundreds of thousands of non Thai Chinese Thais who have these) to learn all you need to know about basic business. Something is clearly missing, and IMO it's the same thing that keeps pygmies from competing in the NBA, and no, I don't mean education or a lack of basketball practice courts.

Heng, your underlying Nazi level fascist racism has never been seen so clearly demonstrated in public. You clearly feel, and this has been apparent in your posts here for years, that the Thais are genetically inferior people to your Chinese kin. I would imagine that this is why, in a some sectors of Sino-Thai Bangkok society that having their children marry a Thai is still frowned upon.

But to your non racist point, yes growing up in a small business tends to make one savvy in the ways of business as compared to growing up as the child of a farmer who is cash starved and has no access to credit. But to grow up in a business one is growing up in a world where cash credit is available, credit that was long denied by the Chinese bankers in Thailand to non-Chinese.

Yeah, label it and ignore it when you can't think of anything to say. Fortunately they don't believe in PC sugar coating here. If you're fat, skinny, or can't manage to buy something for a Baht, sell it for two and keep your business out of the red, spend less than you make, invest what's left, etc., well, someone is going to point it out to you.

I think a lot of foreigners can attest that merely increasing the availability of credit or direct cash flow to one's inlaws doesn't a capitalist make. People think differently, have tendencies towards longer or shorter event/planning horizons, it's silly to assume that recognizing such differences is somehow wrong or unfair to those people.