Buddha Shiva Vishnu?

[eggomaniac]

Can somebody name this deity?

It is at the foot of Monkey Mountain - Wat Vichain near Chian Yai in Nakhon si Thammarat.

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Also, does anybody know the real artifact trail of Ho Phra Isuan and Ho Phra Narai, along with the NST Museum.

I had read that there was replica linga in HPI and the real one was in the museum. They said HPN had very old statue of Vishnu. However the plaque in front of HPN states their is a replica statue, o one found in Phang-Nga, and that the real one is in the museum.

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VISNU IS THE HIGHEST GOD OF HINDU. THE SHRINE WAS ESSENTIALLY BUILD TO DEDICATE TO VISNU AS HIS RESIDENCE AND USED FOR HINDU CEREMONY. NOW VISNU INSIDE THE SHRINE ARE REPLICA THE BIG ONE FOUND AT PANG-NGA PROVINCE AND THE **** FIGURES AT THE ARCHAEOLICAL SITES IN NAKHON SI THAMMARAT.

กรมศิลปากร

หอพระนารายณ์เป็นโบาราณสถานในศาสนาพราหมณ์ลัทธิไวษณพนิกาย สร้างขึ้น

เพื่อใช้ประกอบพิธีกรรมทางศาสนา เทวรูปพระนารายณ์องค์เดิมที่พบในหอนี้

กำหนดอายุประมาณพุทธศตวรรษที่ ๑๐-๑๑ ปัจจุบันอยู่พิพิธภัณฑสถานแห่งชาติ

นครศรีธรรมราช เทวรูปองค์ัปัจจุบัน จำลองมาจากเทวรูปพระนารายณ์ พบที่

อ.ปะกง จ.พังงา

Translation:

Department of Fine Arts

The Narayana Shrine is an ancient site of the Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism, built for use in religious ceremonies. The original Narayana statue that was in this shrine was made during the 10-11th centuries B.E. and is now held in the Nakhon Si Thammarat National Museum. The current Narayana statue is a replica of one found at Pakong District, Phang-nga Province.

Edited February 12, 2010 by eggomaniac

[sabaijai]

The figure is Avalokitesvara. In this pose he is also known as Lokanath, ie world protector, or Lokesvara (lord of the world).

[eggomaniac]

The figure is Avalokitesvara. In this pose he is also known as Lokanath, ie world protector, or Lokesvara (lord of the world).

The Link you provided shows female dieties and refers to a female.

"Although mainstream Theravada does not worship any of the Mahayana bodhisattvas, Avalokiteśvara is popularly worshiped in Burma, where she is called Lokanat, and Thailand, where she is called Lokesvara."

The statue in question looks male to me?

[sabaijai]

First paragraph:

Avalokiteśvara (Sanskrit: अवलोकितेश्वर , Bengali: অবলোকিতেশ্বর, lit. "Lord who looks down", Chinese: 觀世音) is a bodhisattva who embodies the compassion of all Buddhas. He is one of the more widely revered bodhisattvas in mainstream Mahayana Buddhism. In China and its sphere of cultural influence, Avalokiteśvara is often depicted in a female form known as Guan Yin. (However, in Taoist mythology, Guan Yin has other origination stories which are unrelated to Avalokiteśvara.).

And further on:

In Theravada, Lokeśvara, "the lord, ruler or sovereign beholder of the world", name of a Buddha; probably a development of the idea of Brahmā, Vishnu or Śiva as lokanātha, "lord of worlds". In Indo-China especially it refers to Avalokiteśvara, whose image or face, in masculine form, is frequently seen, e.g., at Angkor.

[eggomaniac]

The figure is Avalokitesvara. In this pose he is also known as Lokanath, ie world protector, or Lokesvara (lord of the world).

Sabaijai, this is not an an ancient placement. It was installed within the last2 years. This Lokanath is a Hindu deity, right? Do the Buddhist temples depict Hindu gods?

Good old Google has lots of pictures of Buddha with 7 snakes over his head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucalinda

There are also lots with him seated and his right hand up. 'fearlessnes'

http://www.buddha-images.com/abhaya-mudra.asp

[LazyYogi]

The figure is Avalokitesvara. In this pose he is also known as Lokanath, ie world protector, or Lokesvara (lord of the world).

Sabaijai, this is not an an ancient placement. It was installed within the last2 years. This Lokanath is a Hindu deity, right? Do the Buddhist temples depict Hindu gods?

Good old Google has lots of pictures of Buddha with 7 snakes over his head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucalinda

There are also lots with him seated and his right hand up. 'fearlessnes'

http://www.buddha-images.com/abhaya-mudra.asp

Look carefully and you'll notice a seated Buddha in the headdress of the statue in question. The Buddha has his hands in the meditative position, indicating that it is Buddha Amitabha. The Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara usually has an image of Buddha Amitabha in his headdress to indicate that he belongs to his Lotus Family.

Also, the statue is seated with one knee bent up in a "royal ease" posture, which is often used for bodhisattvas, but never used with buddhas.

He is also dressed as an Indian prince, further suggesting that he is a bodhisattva, not a buddha, despite the 7-headed naga.

[eggomaniac]

The figure is Avalokitesvara. In this pose he is also known as Lokanath, ie world protector, or Lokesvara (lord of the world).

Sabaijai, this is not an an ancient placement. It was installed within the last2 years. This Lokanath is a Hindu deity, right? Do the Buddhist temples depict Hindu gods?

Good old Google has lots of pictures of Buddha with 7 snakes over his head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucalinda

There are also lots with him seated and his right hand up. 'fearlessnes'

http://www.buddha-images.com/abhaya-mudra.asp

Look carefully and you'll notice a seated Buddha in the headdress of the statue in question. The Buddha has his hands in the meditative position, indicating that it is Buddha Amitabha. The Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara usually has an image of Buddha Amitabha in his headdress to indicate that he belongs to his Lotus Family.

Also, the statue is seated with one knee bent up in a "royal ease" posture, which is often used for bodhisattvas, but never used with buddhas.

He is also dressed as an Indian prince, further suggesting that he is a bodhisattva, not a buddha, despite the 7-headed naga.

Great! Now I am beginning to think that this might be a very old statue, an antiquity, that was moved down from one of the buildings in the monastery on top of Monkey Mountain? [The 'mountian', is called Khoa Kaew Vichian, which means hill of the glass balls, village people. It is said that ancients saw 'glass ball's flying to and from the moon. Millions of years before that, as per the leading theory, the mountain range in that area was part of the big crater formed when a 'huge' comet entered the earth in the region of the Atlantic and pushed the crust of the earth out to form the moon, also forming the Pacific ocean. When that occured, according to theory, Thailand was the one of the Southern perimeters, near Australia and has migrated, on a plate, to its present position.]

I digress. Some of the buildings at the monastery look ancient. I think it is called Wat Vichian? I will ADD some pictures.

OH, what is the 4 armed monkey holding, a baby cobra or a lotus flower? I wish I took pictures of all the animals on the bottom. There is horse, pig, rat, cow and maybe a lion?

and OH again, Can you zoom in on the building, front and back, and translate the inscriptions? It shows and elephant and a monkey? praising a lady?

Edited February 13, 2010 by eggomaniac

[mohinga]

Nice pics. Not being an art-historian I wouldn't know if the image is original or a copy. I would bet that Sabaijai is correct in saying that it is a figure of Avalokitesvara. The area around Nakorn was part of the Srivijaya emire; and for several centuries Mahayana Buddhism was predominant there. Hence the bodhisattva image.

Just a guess, though.....

[bankei]

Do the Buddhist temples depict Hindu gods?

Yes, often the case in Thailand, Burma and Sri Lanka

[LazyYogi]

Personally, I don't think the statue is vary old. To me it looks to be a modern production that combines elements from a few different eras.

The animals on the bottom are the 12 animals of the Chinese zodiac.

EDIT: After thinking it over, I'm now of the opinion that the statue might actually be meant to be an image of Jatukam Ramathep.

Edited February 14, 2010 by LazyYogi

[eggomaniac]

Personally, I don't think the statue is vary old. To me it looks to be a modern production that combines elements from a few different eras.

The animals on the bottom are the 12 animals of the Chinese zodiac.

By not very old, do you mean 5 years, 50?

To me, this is strikingly beautiful statue and insteresting. I like that it is of a Hindu prince, at a Thai Buddhist monastery, with Chinese symbols.

In looking at hundreds of Buddha statues for sale on the internet, very few compare, in my opinion, with this one's visual effect. To me, it is comparable to August Rodin's 'The Thinker' and 'David' in outright 'presence'.

I have emails off to someone who lives close: hopefully they can ask the monks for some information on the source. You all have 'mostly' satisfied my interest in the depiction, or meaning, and thanks for that. Now I am driven to know its origins, for instance if there is a warehouse full of them somewhere, or if it is a 'one off' commissioned work.

EDIT: After thinking it over, I'm now of the opinion that the statue might actually be meant to be an image of Jatukam Ramathep.

If I am getting the names right, and this is very complicated to me, I think this Wiki Article has it, possibly, right back to being The Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, as 'some' believers consider him to be one and the same with Jatukham Rammathep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatukam_Ramathep

quote "Some legends hold that the name actually belongs to an incarnation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara, whose worship was known in the south due to the presence of Mahayana Buddhism there during earlier eras". Others believe, Jatukham Rammathep is a conjoining of "two princes of the Srivijaya kingdom of southern Thailand."

[sabaijai]

It is definitely Avalokitesvara, in the pose wherein locals typically refer to the image as Lokesvara (Thailand) or Lokanath (Myanmar). I have seen dozens of them around SE Asia, particularly in Myanmar and Thailand. There are plenty of new sculptures of this sort around, and this appears to be relatively new as well, judging from style and material (cement).

[Samuian]

Narayana - (Naara= water / Ayana=resting place/abode)

He who rest's on water, the ocean of infinity! (one of 245 Names of Vishnu)

Naranya is just one other of many names for vishnu - the bestower, of whose navel, while dreaming on the serpent bed Brahma - the Creator, sprang off from his navel and created the lokas (universes/worlds/various planes of existence!!

as buddha is, according to hindu scriptures the ninth avatar, there is no

contradiction in showing vishnu or other hindu gods (understood as Incarnation/Manifestation of the same)

Narayana is also identified as the original man, Purusha.

The Puranas present divergent views on Narayana. In the Kurma Purana he is identified with Brahman and Krishna-Vishnu, but in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana Narayana is considered different from Krishna and also considered part of Krishna.

In the Mahabharata Krishna is often referred to as Narayana.

Another interpretation of the word Narayana sees Nara meaning "human" and Ayana as "direction/goal". Hence Narayana refers to the "direction of a human" (or the one that helps a human to his/her goal, i.e. towards moksha).

The ten avatars of Vishnu: Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Krishna, Kalki, Buddha, Parshurama, Rama and Narasimha, Krishna

The Buddha in Hinduism is sometimes viewed as an Avatar of Vishnu. In the Puranic text Bhagavata Purana, he is the twenty-fourth of twenty-five avatars, prefiguring a forthcoming final incarnation. Similarly, a number of Hindu traditions portray Buddha as the most recent (ninth) of ten principal avatars, known as the Daśāvatāra (Ten Incarnations of God). The Buddhist Dasharatha Jataka (Jataka Atthakatha 461) represents Rama as a previous incarnation of the Buddha as a Bodhisattva and supreme Dharma King of great wisdom.

Buddha's teachings deny the authority of the Vedas and consequently Buddhism is generally viewed as a nāstika school (heterodox, literally "It is not so") from the perspective of orthodox Hinduism.

Quotes source: wikipedia

Naranya - also King Narai of Siam (1656-1688)

Personally I share the essential view of the following:

Other prominent modern proponents of Hinduism, such as Radhakrishnan and Vivekananda, consider the Buddha as a teacher of the same universal truth that underlies all religions of the world:

Vivekananda: May he who is the Brahman of the Hindus, the Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrians, the Buddha of Buddhists, the Jehovah of the Jews, the Father in Heavens of Christians, give strength to you to carry out your noble ideas!

Steven Collins sees such Hindu claims regarding Buddhism as part of an effort - itself a reaction to Christian proselytizing efforts in India - to show that "all religions are one", and that Hinduism is uniquely valuable because it alone recognizes this fact.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Samuian

[eggomaniac]

Narayana - (Naara= water / Ayana=resting place/abode)

Personally I share the essential view of the following:

Other prominent modern proponents of Hinduism, such as Radhakrishnan and Vivekananda, consider the Buddha as a teacher of the same universal truth that underlies all religions of the world:

Vivekananda: May he who is the Brahman of the Hindus, the Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrians, the Buddha of Buddhists, the Jehovah of the Jews, the Father in Heavens of Christians, give strength to you to carry out your noble ideas!

Steven Collins sees such Hindu claims regarding Buddhism as part of an effort - itself a reaction to Christian proselytizing efforts in India - to show that "all religions are one", and that Hinduism is uniquely valuable because it alone recognizes this fact.

While all of your notes about water and avatars and all that complicated stuff can be be seen as remotely related to this Topic[though it was above my head on how it helped identify the meaning of the statue, I would suggest the above ideas are fodder for a New Topic.

If you title it, something like, 'Hindus are alone in recognizing all religions are one', I could only suggest you read up on B'haism, first, to avoid an innacurate premise for debate.

The B'hais have the One World Religion concept corner of the market squarely reserved.

Also, yes, no Christian would say all religions are the same, if indeed, as Mr. Collins and you claim, that all Hindus would? However 97 of 100 Christians would say there are very similar underlying similarities in the teachings of moral conduct, right and wrong, grace and sin [karma], and powerful 'other worldly' beings in all religions.

If you start a New Topic, instead of latching into this one about a statue, I may be inclined to diaologue; or I will consider a New Topic on these other 'Concepts'.

[eggomaniac]

It is definitely Avalokitesvara, in the pose wherein locals typically refer to the image as Lokesvara (Thailand) or Lokanath (Myanmar). I have seen dozens of them around SE Asia, particularly in Myanmar and Thailand. There are plenty of new sculptures of this sort around, and this appears to be relatively new as well, judging from style and material (cement).

For reasons I can't explain, this statue captured my imagination. While I did not have 'misconceptions' around it, I certainly had 'misimaginations' around it, if you can see the slight difference.

I thank you all for allowing me opportunity to form some 'fact based' conceptions.

It's made out of cement!? Wow that was a shocker. Does that mean there is a mold at a statue factory somewhere that they can do 'pours' to make other ones?

I have 'lingering' questions, based on what I have recently learned and based on the conclusion it depiction of Avalokitesvara, not Buddha.

I learned the right hand up is one of the common poses of Buddha, 'fearless one'.

Is it 'tradtional' for the 'prince' to also show this pose?

Also the canopy of 7 snakes is related to when Buddha was protected from the rain by Naga. Is it depiction that is also used for the 'prince'?

What is the historic connection with ancient Hinduism and Buddhism to Chinese astrology?

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From the lines of my questions, you might see I am 'beginning' to form a conception about the meaning of this statue. My present 'theory' is that a very talented sculptor fashioned a beautiful and striking image based on 'elements' of images already on the market.

Or it was clerically decided this comnination of details would deliver an overall important message.

There seems to some 'license' in Hinduism for this, out of which Sects have been created.

[sabaijai]

eggomaniac, I think you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself. The figure is not a 'prince,' ie Lokesvara is not a prince. He/she is a 'Buddha-to-be' or bodhisattva. Regalia links the figure with the royal lineage of the historical Gautama Buddha.

Hand gestures/mudras for Lokesvara can be the same as for the Buddha, hence the offering of protection pose of the right hand. The sculptor has added the naga pedestal, not usually seen with Lokesvara but as a Buddhist symbol, iconographically acceptable for a bodhisattva. There is nothing Hindu about this figure as far as I can see, other than the usual Indian antecedents for Buddhist art in general.

Avalokitesvara(Thai: พระโพธิสัตย์อวโลกิเตศวร) has an incredible variety of representations, art-wise, as this page shows:

http://www.mysteriousclub.com/discuz/redir...p;goto=lastpost

Yes the figure is mostly related to Mahayana Buddhism and was a popular image in the Srivijaya Empire.

The Jatukham Ramathep cult is another kettle of fish altogether. Some people have suggested it's related to Lokesvara but in fact the two images in Nakhon Si Thammarat are Hindu sculptures that were given to the city state by Sri Lanka in centuries past. Many local Thais mistakenly believe they represent two local princes. There is a long thread here already on the Jatukham Ramathep cult.

Looking at an enlargements of the figure just now, I'm thinkin I could have been hasty in saying it's made of cement. I still think it is but it might be some other material, even blackened bronze. Wet cement is very easy to sculpt, using a trowel and other tools.

[eggomaniac]

eggomaniac, I think you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself. The figure is not a 'prince,' ie Lokesvara is not a prince. He/she is a 'Buddha-to-be' or bodhisattva. Regalia links the figure with the royal lineage of the historical Gautama Buddha.

It was stated in Post #6 that he was dressed in princely attire and the pose of 'royal ease'. Then there was the information about the conjoining of two 'princes' to form Jatukham Ramathep.

That's what got the 'prince' idea in my head.

When you say the figure is of royal lineage, as well....

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At any rate I am very happy with my 'new' knowledge of the subject, mostly thanks to you. If he is not A prince, to me he is THE prince. works for me..

I have emails off to some folks who live in the area. Hopefully they will go ask the monks where they got him, when, who he is, what he is made of, what the little monkey is up to...

Oh,, there are several monkeys in the location of the statue, at the food of 'Monkey Mountain.'

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speaking of another 'kettle of fish', I might be the only farang who has seen the cave around the back of the mountain. I'm fiarly certain the figure in the cave, the smaller ones, are all involved with cremation ceremonies.