Lamphun Deaths

[cmdream]

So terribly sad for those poor people and their families. Not pre judging but if the culprit (s) are caught they should go to prison for life.

On a more general note. You often see larger vehicles treating motorcyclists with utter contempt on this road. The mad dash to get to work must cause so many accidents per year. These kids are just trying to make a living and they have to run the gauntlet of this major road every day. Something needs to be done to protect them.

You are on to something, lets lay the blame where it belongs on the so called Traffic Police ! I have been on the road here for 5 years and never have seen a traffic stop for an infraction. The only enforcement I have seen is the easy pickings for no safety helmets.

How many times have you seen a red and yellow traffic police car on Ring Road or any other road? I know there are many out there hiding! How about a letter campaign to the Chief ? Get the police cars out there and start handing out citations for infractions. When other drivers see that they are doing their job to control the madness it will help correct the situation. I know stupid idea, let the flaming begin.

[femi fan]

It's not as easy as just calling for more police and government action. There are cultural dimensions to this, as well as financial ones.

Most families can't afford a car, but they can afford a motorbike, and being families they are often on the bike together.

Thai culture, to me, seems to be based on the premise that life should be lived as easily and comfortably as possible, sabai, saduak. Most if not all decisions in life are made according to what is simply easier. And waiting for a red light rather than just driving through it if they can get through may seem a silly thing to do. Pedestrian crossings with traffic lights in chiang mai are beginning to work quite well these days, but even so, once the pedestrians have crossed, then it's time to carry on driving regardless of what colour the light is still.

Helmets get in the way of comfort, mess up the hairstyle, and are too hot in a hot country. Many who do wear them are only doing so to avoid a fine since they neglect to do the strap up.

Thai culture and driving deadly machines don't mix so well perhaps. All us farangs, used to much stricter rules back home where culture is based on suffocating rules and regulations and laws for everything, are long used to following the law rather than what is personally easy for us, and so it's all too easy to just say they should do what we do.

In addition, the whole driving experience is markedly different here where there are just so many two-wheeled vehicles in contrast to european or american roads for example. But in those countries they have more money, and second hand cars are cheap unlike in thailand.

For me, trying to live life as easily comfortably as possible is one of the traits i like about thais and their way of living life (in contrast to the stifling law- and rule-bound britain), but everything has its downside, and the modern world with packed roads has collided with a longer deeply-ingrained thai way of approaching life. Just only one generation ago in chiang mai i'd imagine with so many less cars on the road it was relatively safe driving a motorbike. Now, with the fast-growing economy, thai culture frequently seems at odds with the modern western way of doing things.

We want more safety on the roads, but not if it means changing thailand into a britain or a US or any country where citizens are swamped by rules and laws that govern almost every aspect of their lives. Freedom and security are opposites.

[cmdream]

I agree with most of what you say femi, I am not talking about Homeland Security for Thailand. The issue at hand is road safety,

just the presence of patrol cars on the road will have an impact on the crazies and under educated out there. We adjust to the driving habits here, or die. Getting hit from behind by some idiot is my biggest fear. We see them everyday running red lights

weaving in and out across lanes and speeding down small sois. As you say in years past anything goes, today with the amount of vehicles on the roads some form of control is mandated. Police car presence and some enforcement is necessary.

[realthaideal]

I'm with Femi's well-put reply as well. I was starting to think along these lines too as I read everyone elses' replies. I will first make clear that the tragedy of the OP is exactly that. I am sad and sorry for those that were lost in a careless act of stupidity.

That said, every time we start to bring about the notion that there is a better more positive way to have things handled here, we are fantasizing about all the best parts of our Western headset without dragging along the negative aspects as well. To value life as a one-time-around thing, to worry about the seriousness of driving ala 'a car is a weapon,' to adhere to all rules that are on the books, to take precautionary steps when driving and also to protect the lives of little ones in/on the vehicles, this all requires a very different way of looking at life, what's mine and what's yours. It necessitates alot of seriousness that is only gonna equal a western mindset. If that comes about, we get the mixed blessing of rules and regulated safety in an uptight society.... like the country I left to be here.

I really don't think you can tinker with the system much and not expect to change (ie lose!) the very things we love about this country as well.

[cmdream]

I'm with Femi's well-put reply as well. I was starting to think along these lines too as I read everyone elses' replies. I will first make clear that the tragedy of the OP is exactly that. I am sad and sorry for those that were lost in a careless act of stupidity.

That said, every time we start to bring about the notion that there is a better more positive way to have things handled here, we are fantasizing about all the best parts of our Western headset without dragging along the negative aspects as well. To value life as a one-time-around thing, to worry about the seriousness of driving ala 'a car is a weapon,' to adhere to all rules that are on the books, to take precautionary steps when driving and also to protect the lives of little ones in/on the vehicles, this all requires a very different way of looking at life, what's mine and what's yours. It necessitates alot of seriousness that is only gonna equal a western mindset. If that comes about, we get the mixed blessing of rules and regulated safety in an uptight society.... like the country I left to be here.

I really don't think you can tinker with the system much and not expect to change (ie lose!) the very things we love about this country as well.

Your mindset is acknowledged, we are talking about carnage on the roads where people are killed and maimed, not a philosophical mindset. I agree with not trying to change the things that we enjoy living in this wonderful country. I just think a little action from those responsible for safety on the roads should do their job. It is a small expectation. They have the manpower and vehicles to do the job. I don't see this as a major change in their culture. They see their job as clean up after the fact, draw the white chalk lines and take pictures of the victims. It is a mindset of the traffic police that must change. No change in their culture just an adjustment in how they see their job ! It is a problem that needs attention and education. Chok dee to all of us that travel here.

[ferd54]

I live in Beijing now. Here one is quickly aware of the same patterns -- 'me first', cars flying around blind corners, cars racing along bikepaths, etc. It could easily result in the same carnage, except the govt has done its job in urban planning by:

* Providing comprehensive and efficient public transport

* Banning motorcycles

* Having traffic police on patrol

* Using a CCTV system at traffic lights and issuing tickets to violators that really bite

Before we get in to the Big Brother aspect of the government here, I concede that it does behave that way, yet in this case, a strong hand has helped save untold numbers of lives and greatly reduced the stress of living here.

However, I hear its pretty wild out on the open roads in rural areas.

All that poor families Thailand can afford is a motorcycle, so that's what they ride. If there was a light rail system linking Chiang Mai and the Lamphun Industrial Estate, for example, that traffic nightmare there might be alleviated. If the were police on patrol, such horrible accidents could be reduced, etc. etc. etc. You all know the story. I learned that "If" and "Should" are words that should be banned while talking about Thailand. They are totally pointless. It never changes, and never will in my opinion. The carnage I witnessed happened more than 10 years ago and the same thing is still happening today -- just with wider roads to get up even more speed.

What always amazed me is that Thai people witness the same thing or have had family members maimed and killed on the roads -- yet still drive in the same reckless way. That is just beyond me.

Sabai attitude, you say? Is road carnage sabai?

[femi fan]

What always amazed me is that Thai people witness the same thing or have had family members maimed and killed on the roads -- yet still drive in the same reckless way. That is just beyond me.

Sabai attitude, you say? Is road carnage sabai?

The answer to your question is obvious, and i used the word sabai to describe something else, ie that it runs to the heart of thai culture. Emotional rhetoric rarely leads to worthwhile solutions.

It's just not that easy to find the solutions. Extra rules and laws administered in a rule-bound society are likely to work, but not so well in countries like thailand which value pragmatism and ease-of-living.

But we need to be sure we are on the same playing field first. You say 'thai people' witness the same thing, yet still drive in the same reckless way, as if 'thai people' is some kind of homogenous mass that acts in concert all the time. As much as we may all agree there is some mad driving on the roads, there is plenty of driving that is not mad, and this reflects that the majority of drivers do not go around causing road carnage. There will always be a conveyor belt production line of young testosterone-fueled young men coming onto the roads.

One of the problems that presumably has lead to this carnage is exactly the western, developed, industrial model of lifestyle and society that has effectively been juxtaposed onto the thais in a very short space of time. We now have thais rushing to work, rushing to school, all subject to time.

I'm not excusing anything, but simple pat answers from western minds are not going to suddenly cure all.

[femi fan]

I live in Beijing now. Here one is quickly aware of the same patterns -- 'me first', cars flying around blind corners, cars racing along bikepaths, etc. It could easily result in the same carnage, except the govt has done its job in urban planning by:

* Providing comprehensive and efficient public transport

* Banning motorcycles

* Having traffic police on patrol

* Using a CCTV system at traffic lights and issuing tickets to violators that really bite

Banning motorbikes is outrageous, and only possible in a society where state control is omnipresent. It punishes the poorer members of society.

What's the pollution levels like? How much does the 'efficient' public transport system contribute towards pollution?

You need the whole picture to get the whole understanding.

[ferd54]

Banning motorbikes is outrageous, and only possible in a society where state control is omnipresent. It punishes the poorer members of society.

What's the pollution levels like? How much does the 'efficient' public transport system contribute towards pollution?

You need the whole picture to get the whole understanding.

The poorer member of society are well-served by the bus and subway system that reaches every corner of this city. The buses are all new, some are electric, and of course the subway is electric. One never waits more than about 10 minutes to catch a bus or subway and never sees black smoke belching from the buses, or cars for that matter. To move the same number of people on motorcycles would be far, far more polluting.

The air quality improved greatly in the run-up to the Olympics and has remained far better than it was 10 or 20 years ago. Really, they had no choice but to move the industries and power plants out of the city because the environment had reached the tipping point. All vehicles in the city must meet Euro III emission standards and that will be strengthened to the Euro IV -- the most stringent in the world -- standard this year. Today is another blue sky day. In the three years I have been here it's never been as bad as Chiang Mai in the burning season -- which is about the worst air quality I have experienced anywhere in the world.

I have a girlfriend here and I am never worried about her getting around safely. There simply isn't the road carnage. In Chiang Mai, both my (ex) wife and I had cars for self preservation.

Folks do have electric bicycles here, which are now about as fast in the city as a motor scooter. And they drive them like the Thais do motorbikes (which means crazy). Fortunately, you just have to be careful when crossing the bike lanes, but they can be even more startling because they are silent.

[dingdongrb]

So terribly sad for those poor people and their families. Not pre judging but if the culprit (s) are caught they should go to prison for life.

On a more general note. You often see larger vehicles treating motorcyclists with utter contempt on this road. The mad dash to get to work must cause so many accidents per year. These kids are just trying to make a living and they have to run the gauntlet of this major road every day. Something needs to be done to protect them.

The culprit is already caught.

I know some of the factories require helmets riding to and from work and do try to educate them.

Yeah you're correct many of the factories here at the Lamphun High Tech estate (near where this accident occurred) do require employees riding scooters to wear helmets. I see is everyday, the rider will place a helmet on their head just prior to entering the factory gate. They do this just like when they see the police, at the very same intersection where the said mentioned accident occurred, passing out tickets when riders aren't wearing helmets. Then they immediately take them off... Oh BTW, they just merely place them on their head and don't bother to strap them down..... a lot of good that does...Hmmmmmm

[dingdongrb]

So terribly sad for those poor people and their families. Not pre judging but if the culprit (s) are caught they should go to prison for life.

On a more general note. You often see larger vehicles treating motorcyclists with utter contempt on this road. The mad dash to get to work must cause so many accidents per year. These kids are just trying to make a living and they have to run the gauntlet of this major road every day. Something needs to be done to protect them.

You are on to something, lets lay the blame where it belongs on the so called Traffic Police ! I have been on the road here for 5 years and never have seen a traffic stop for an infraction. The only enforcement I have seen is the easy pickings for no safety helmets.

How many times have you seen a red and yellow traffic police car on Ring Road or any other road? I know there are many out there hiding! How about a letter campaign to the Chief ? Get the police cars out there and start handing out citations for infractions. When other drivers see that they are doing their job to control the madness it will help correct the situation. I know stupid idea, let the flaming begin.

It's like I tell my friends back in the USA..... Here in Thailand when you see a police car, what do you do??? You speed up and pass him!!!

[PeaceBlondie]

Someone mentioned that the authorities are trying to do something about these infractions but as I see they are doing nothing... and, it's unlikely that they ever will, because the police and everyone else in authority lack the will do do so.

Two persons are killed on the realms roads every hour and nothing is being done about it.

In concluding I have as much compassion as anyone posting on TV about death and carnage on the roads, but until the Thai’s themselves show the same level of concern and do something about the carnage as the majority of Caucasian expats who contribute posts to Thai Visa do the carnage will continue....but as I have said until the authorities change the culture of how people drive (and the denizens of the realm who drive do likewise) in the realm nothings gonna change

I fell sorry for the families but that's as far as it goes.

Thais will keep dying needlessly, indefinitely.

[femi fan]

Thais will keep dying needlessly, indefinitely.

That's because of their different attitude to life and death. We see it as needless perhaps, not sure if they do. In our home nations of the developed west we go for security, thais go for freedom. The boundaries between life and death are more blurred when in pursuit of freedom.

I know it's not strictly on-topic, but i feel it worth pointing out that iraqis and afghanis go on dying needlessly, and pretty much indefinitely...

[MESmith]

Don't people, societies change over time?  Thailand needs to change if it wants to adopt modern technology such as the motor car.  It's no longer the age of the buffalo cart.   Life over here is changing very fast.  People no longer live in the village they grew up in, neighbours are strangers, people are getting on each others tits & don't always smile at each other.   My nearest neighbours are about 100m from my house, and they are probably 50m from each other, but one called the police to tell the other to "shut the <deleted> up".  It worked for a while, but now the noise is building again - drums.   When driving their cars they are invisible & don't care one tiny miniscule bit about anyone else.  The traffic police can't help, because they drive as stupidly as everyone else.  Who's going to teach them?

I've had 2 near misses where traffic police escorting minibuses of "special ones" in both a winding, rural road, with blind corners & a community street with a blind right angle bend, have nearly caused carnage, just to get their "special ones" to their destination, a few seconds earlier.

[PeaceBlondie]

My best student died from a crash at zero kph in Lamphun six years ago, from head injuries easily prevented by a helmet he had in the basket.

[ferd54]

That's because of their different attitude to life and death. We see it as needless perhaps, not sure if they do.

I know it's not strictly on-topic, but i feel it worth pointing out that iraqis and afghanis go on dying needlessly, and pretty much indefinitely...

What "politically correct" nonsense on several levels.

[femi fan]

My best student died from a crash at zero kph in Lamphun six years ago, from head injuries easily prevented by a helmet he had in the basket.

When i used to teach in bangkok, every few weeks or months one student or other talked about losing a good friend or family member. Every single time i asked how, it was on the roads.

Mai pen rai.

We have to get used to it! It must be admitted by almost everyone on this thread that thais' approach to death does not equal that of most westerners.

I once read a translated novel by a well-known thai author (can't remember any names) where the story revolved between patpong, pattaya, and phuket, probably in the 70s. It was a most interesting insight into thai thinking for me. One of the characters had a motorbike accident in phuket. The whole narrative indicated that this was normal, expected, and part of the fun of life.

I've had students before all sad that their boyfriend has just died. A week or two later, they seem completely back to normal.

Death here has different connotations to back in our home countries. It almost seems to be part of the normal rhythms of life.

We're possibly too serious death.

I've seen cars, been waiting for a long time to pull out of a side road or whatever, and the driver obviously thinks that he's simply been waiting for too long, so just pulls out now because it's time for him to come out. Death? Not important. Getting on with life is more important, even if it's snuffed out by a wrong decision.

Look it's all bloody mad. I love this country, but still am battling to avoid reacting to the shit i see happen on the roads while driving my car. But that's the way it is, and what else can we do? Take the buddhist path, accept it, and do one's best to not become a stat.

Or go back to the UK and have my life snuffed out by all the rules and regulations, even though ostensibly i haven't died yet...

[femi fan]

That's because of their different attitude to life and death. We see it as needless perhaps, not sure if they do.

I know it's not strictly on-topic, but i feel it worth pointing out that iraqis and afghanis go on dying needlessly, and pretty much indefinitely...

What "politically correct" nonsense on several levels.

I'm sorry, i don't get the drift of what you're trying to say. Can you be clearer for me so that i can reply? I'm one of the least pc people i've ever met, so i am a tad confused.

[femi fan]

Don't people, societies change over time?  Thailand needs to change if it wants to adopt modern technology such as the motor car.  It's no longer the age of the buffalo cart.   Life over here is changing very fast.  People no longer live in the village they grew up in, neighbours are strangers, people are getting on each others tits & don't always smile at each other.   My nearest neighbours are about 100m from my house, and they are probably 50m from each other, but one called the police to tell the other to "shut the <deleted> up".  It worked for a while, but now the noise is building again - drums.   When driving their cars they are invisible & don't care one tiny miniscule bit about anyone else.  The traffic police can't help, because they drive as stupidly as everyone else.  Who's going to teach them?

I've had 2 near misses where traffic police escorting minibuses of "special ones" in both a winding, rural road, with blind corners & a community street with a blind right angle bend, have nearly caused carnage, just to get their "special ones" to their destination, a few seconds earlier.

Evolution takes time mate! At least there's posters and stuff now that urge thais to not drink and drive, not to speak on the mobile while driving.

It was only about 30 years ago that in the UK if you were suspected of drink driving you'd be asked to walk a straight line. Not long before that you could and would ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet.

[millwall_fan]

As has been alluded to earlier, it would be draconian to ban motorcycles.What choice have the poor got but to carry children, shopping and the like on their motorcycles.

A decent public transport system would help. For years we've heard promises of a light rail system. A decent bus service would be a start. But we're stuck with dirty polluting Songhtaew which come along when the driver feels like working (or is sober enough to attempt the feat) and he may take you to your detination as long as its on his way home or toward the night bazaar. Every time a bus service comes along they vandalise the bus stops. Suggest that there may be a better way to get round Thailands second city and they block up Thapae gate until the suggestion is withdrawn. Sadly the carnage on the roads will continue until someone can take on the Songthaew mafia and give motorcyclists a realistic alternative. Don't hold your breath though.

[femi fan]

As has been alluded to earlier, it would be draconian to ban motorcycles.What choice have the poor got but to carry children, shopping and the like on their motorcycles.

A decent public transport system would help. For years we've heard promises of a light rail system. A decent bus service would be a start. But we're stuck with dirty polluting Songhtaew which come along when the driver feels like working (or is sober enough to attempt the feat) and he may take you to your detination as long as its on his way home or toward the night bazaar. Every time a bus service comes along they vandalise the bus stops. Suggest that there may be a better way to get round Thailands second city and they block up Thapae gate until the suggestion is withdrawn. Sadly the carnage on the roads will continue until someone can take on the Songthaew mafia and give motorcyclists a realistic alternative. Don't hold your breath though.

Yeah, but get the public transport system in, and you still have the problem of thais getting from their home to anywhere where there's a place to catch the public transport. As it happens, just about any thai can get anywhere using public transport already! They always have. Look at bangkok, you can step out of your house almost and get taken to wherever you're going.

In england you walk everywhere, because you have to in order to find a place that gives you transport. It's a cold country, no problem. Thailand's hot, and in any case, culturally only poor people use their legs to get anywhere...

[acoustic25]

so was it all thai people that were in the accident? any falang?

[MESmith]

Don't people, societies change over time?  Thailand needs to change if it wants to adopt modern technology such as the motor car.  It's no longer the age of the buffalo cart.   Life over here is changing very fast.  

Evolution takes time mate! At least there's posters and stuff now that urge thais to not drink and drive, not to speak on the mobile while driving.

It was only about 30 years ago that in the UK if you were suspected of drink driving you'd be asked to walk a straight line. Not long before that you could and would ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet.

That's what I was trying to point out.   UK has changed, everywhere is changing, Thailand is changing.  Before you didn't have major carnage when a couple of buffalo carts collided.  The people need to change their attitudes.  This isn't a living museum.  People in UK didn't use to wear seatbelts.  Many people died.  Now everyone in UK wears a seatbelt, even in the backseats.  Is Thailand some kind of utopian Nirvana where no order is needed?  It doesn't have to go down the crazy road that many western countries have, but some attempt at common sense & order is required to protect the people.  My wife is Thai.  After a short holiday in UK & living with me, she cringes at the driving here, she closes the windows in despair when the burning starts.  She's still Thai, but I doubt very much it will be "Mai Pen Rai" if one of our sons is murdered by some buffoon with no road sense! Gawd help that driver if she catches him..... 

[ferd54]

As has been alluded to earlier, it would be draconian to ban motorcycles.What choice have the poor got but to carry children, shopping and the like on their motorcycles.

A decent public transport system would help. For years we've heard promises of a light rail system. A decent bus service would be a start. But we're stuck with dirty polluting Songhtaew which come along when the driver feels like working (or is sober enough to attempt the feat) and he may take you to your detination as long as its on his way home or toward the night bazaar. Every time a bus service comes along they vandalise the bus stops. Suggest that there may be a better way to get round Thailands second city and they block up Thapae gate until the suggestion is withdrawn. Sadly the carnage on the roads will continue until someone can take on the Songthaew mafia and give motorcyclists a realistic alternative. Don't hold your breath though.

Of course motorcycles could not be banned if a useful, truly functioning alternative was not offered. As well, because so many people live in villages down a maze of roads, a comprehensive bus service would be difficult. But it seems that nothing is done. You're entirely right about songhtaews -- pretty close to useless on a mass scale when they can decline passengers and drive when and where it best suits their personal schedule on a given day.

As well, walking in the heat and waiting for a bus is tough. But if people could be sure an air-con bus would actually arrive, and arrive reasonably close to a scheduled time, it could begin to help. But then, as you said, the songhtaew mafia has been able to stop any attempt at a scheduled bus service.

What a <deleted>' mess.

[IanForbes]

Like everything in life... there is a compromise. to get one thing you have to give up something else. Every once in a while there is a disaster that brings everyone together in a common cause.

I kind of like the wild west atmosphere of Thailand. You are free to kill yourself by doing something stupid. If your wits and attention is not on high alert at all times it is easy to get killed or maimed. In the wild west of North America the fur trappers went into hostile indian country to earn a meagre existence. They could have made more money by working in some factory, but they chose the freedom of suriving on their wits and strength. The lucky and smart trappers survived, and the not so lucky lost their hair.

It wasn't quite that traumatic when I lost my hair, but I've certainly had some close calls in Thailand. It's like living in a real live video game... only for real.

[PeaceBlondie]

I only with my best student had only lost his hair. The brightest mind in Lamphun province, dead.

[femi fan]

i started to read these posts, and like so many times, my conclusion that thailand and a lot of se asia countries suffer from one major problem, education, and the lack of it.

its the only way forward, and until thailand starts to educate their young ones from today across the board, i'm sorry to say that change will probably take another 100yrs to reach a european standard of today.

but will it ever, that depends on whether thailand wants an educated population.

my guess is as good as yours, draw your own conclusions.

Yeah, but in case you hadn't noticed change is occurring all the time. Education is as well, and slowly but surely it improves. Don't forget that the industrial revolution, to many intents and purposes, has appeared almost instantaneously in countries like thailand, and culture, society, and behaviour have to catch up accordingly. It's an ongoing process.

What have we got now?

Police checkpoints at night time.

Police attempting to stop drivers for speeding.

Posters and educational programs telling the citizens to not drink and drive, not use mobiles and drive, not to drive when tired.

Probably over 50% of motorcyclists wearing helmets (admittedly, many have yet to progress to doing the strap up), although in bkk that figure is much higher.

Signs on work vans asking citizens to report the driver if he's being dangerous.

Speed bumps to slow drivers down in some areas.

Efforts to put distance between drivers (mahidol road).

No more alcohol being sold at petrol stations.

No doubt i've missed some off that list, but my point stands: they ARE making efforts to change things for the safer and better.

But yes, if you want european standards, then europe will be a great place to go to - although there may well be exceptions like spain and greece for example. And furthermore, if you want european standards for driving, then you better make the whole of life here into a european standard, including prices, and people who talk about nothing except money, value of houses, new cars, and so on.

[PeaceBlondie]

femi fan, we don't need to make a European colony out of Thailand. The West advanced about vehicular safety because they were taught to think.

[Gonzo the Face]

femifan I agree with some of what you write.....but there is one problem... and that is that there is a big difference between appearence and reality.

Here in Thailand there is too much effort put into making it look like you are doing something vs really doing it.

Its a lot easier to tell people you are doing something than to really do it... thats the difference.

The biggest drawback to doing things here , in reality is the lack of individual self discipline. there is very little here.... and until the Thai people find this self discipline, it will always be easier to create the image of doing something , rather than really doing it.

[NancyL]

It would be nice to move this thread back to the topic. Is there a list of the victims? What's the current status of the "driver" who caused all this mayhem? I know some people who live in Lamphun and it would like to get some real information.