Chiang Mai University Going Private?

[heybruce]

I talked with some CMU students earlier today and they told me that in June Chiang Mai University will no longer be a government university, it will become a private school, like Payap U., and tuition will almost double, going from 8,000 a semester to 15,000. Graduate school will go up to 25,000 baht a semester, which is a lot of money in Thailand.

Students currently attending will continue to get the lower tuition until they graduate, which is great, but if they want to continue for a higher level degree after graduation they will have to pay the new, higher rates. The student who first told me is in her final weeks of her senior year and had to rule out pursuing a Master's Degree because of the higher fee.

If true, this is unfortunate. Chiang Mai University is considered the best university in the north of Thailand, and one of the best in the country, and it will now be unaffordable for many young people. According to my friend this is happening to a number of universities through-out Thailand and is being done because of poor government finances. This will put a quality education further out of reach of poor and lower middle class Thai's, and further exacerbate an already severe rich-poor divide. I also think it will lessen the charm of Chiang Mai if the two best universities are limited to rich kids only.

I only heard this from two university students, their English isn't great and my Thai is terrible, so I may not have the whole story or all the correct facts (do young Thai's like to "punk" older farang?). Has anyone else heard of this? Any additional info?

[Ulysses G.]

They have been saying that this was going to happen for the last 15 years. Maybe the time has finally come?

[Tywais]

This is a government mandate initiated about 5-6 years ago to be instituted by all government universities and not CMU's idea nor specific to CMU who actually was not so keen on the idea. I was caught up in the move to becoming an autonomous school when they were transitioning me from contract employee to full time staff and there was a lot of confusion as to when and how the conversion was going to happen and it's effect on budgets.

A lot of funding has always been from the private sector via donations, grants and similar mechanisms, but not unlike government/state universities in other countries. One of the advantages that was mentioned was getting out from under the coat tails of the government and its tight controls and regulations. The transitioning is still a work in progress and some steps have been implemented but not clear when the complete or even if full autonomous mechanisms will be put in place.

[heybruce]

This is a government mandate initiated about 5-6 years ago to be instituted by all government universities and not CMU's idea nor specific to CMU who actually was not so keen on the idea. I was caught up in the move to becoming an autonomous school when they were transitioning me from contract employee to full time staff and there was a lot of confusion as to when and how the conversion was going to happen and it's effect on budgets.

A lot of funding has always been from the private sector via donations, grants and similar mechanisms, but not unlike government/state universities in other countries. One of the advantages that was mentioned was getting out from under the coat tails of the government and its tight controls and regulations. The transitioning is still a work in progress and some steps have been implemented but not clear when the complete or even if full autonomous mechanisms will be put in place.

The student I talked was very clear about when this would happen and the effect on tuition. Having CMU go private is not necessarily a bad thing, but tuition increases that make the school unaffordable for many students are.

[BlackArtemis]

The tidbit I heard was the Gov't wasn't happy about how CMU handled their funds and told them to fend on their own.

Payap is still 2x more and I believe Mahidol is 60k, but that might be only the Master program in English.

[elektrified]

Don't know about this but a nurse told me that sometime this year, Suan Dok Hospital on the CMU campus will become privatized and therefore many poor people will not have access to the facility.

[Loaded]

Don't know about this but a nurse told me that sometime this year, Suan Dok Hospital on the CMU campus will become privatized and therefore many poor people will not have access to the facility.

This cannot be a good thing; however, our Western conditioned minds have had a lifetime of being told that private business is better for everyone. This has led to Americans having the most unaffordable health care in the world. I hope Thailand isn't following the America 'dream'.

[earlofwindermere]

Two of my staff are CMU students. They said that a private section will open up alongside the government unversity and work in partnership with each other. From what I could undertand, it would be a similar arrangement to how the private-public hospitals work with Sri Pat and Suan Dok/Maharaj.

[elektrified]

Don't know about this but a nurse told me that sometime this year, Suan Dok Hospital on the CMU campus will become privatized and therefore many poor people will not have access to the facility.

This cannot be a good thing; however, our Western conditioned minds have had a lifetime of being told that private business is better for everyone. This has led to Americans having the most unaffordable health care in the world. I hope Thailand isn't following the America 'dream'.

The nurse said that one reason for the privatization was that there was too much abuse and corruption with government employees misappropriating funds. She also said (with great contempt in her voice), that it will help to keep out the "mountain people" (hill tribes) and the Burmese who often sneak out of the hospital without paying anything.

[Tywais]

Just had a long discussion with the director regarding this issue. It will not be fully private as the government will still have a finger on it and finance it but to a lesser degree then before. The complaint is that the government feels it needs to keep its hands on to prevent corruption as being fully independent can increase it not reduce it.

As for the split private/government, that is also not correct but can understand the confusion. The staff that are currently civil service (government) has a choice to maintain their CS position or switch to directly employed under the university (which is my position). As CS staff retire over time there will be a point that all staff are directly employed aka private.

Regarding the tuition increase. For the last few years they have been switching between tuition + charge/unit to packages. Units have been around 30-50 Baht/unit. With the integrated package the total cost depends on the program being enrolled in. Engineering for example is a fairly high package cost due to lab/project expense of the department. Discussed this with 3 professors and if there is a doubling it would be a specific program and not across the board and they would be surprised at that much of a jump.

Also, I was informed that the majority of undergraduates are here on government loans. The majority of graduates are on fellowships which are apparently readily available if a reasonably good student.

So, the bottom line is that it will not be a fully private (autonomous) school and the tuition structures have been changing for about 4 years now. Some programs still have tuition+unit some use packages for better flexibility in charges for supporting the various departments, some which are more expensive to operate.

[femi fan]

Thailand is slowly but surely morphing into the american model of life, just like the UK and australia did, and pretty much europe too. Capitalism, the rampant version, is knocking on the doors of this country in several ways. Privatising unis is just one part of the overall conversion. Corporate sorts rule the world innit.

I often see thailand as pretty much just being about 20 years behind my home country, the UK. And i know much of our life now follows the US model, as does australia.

If you ain't got money, tough, go beg.

[newbie001]

15k a semester isn't that bad for tuition. It is still cheaper than private elementary - highschools. There are some departments at CMU that charge over 35K baht a semester for undergrad.

There have been a lot of changes to policies this year.

For those that are full time they have to teach more classes, get no overtime unless they publish and they have reduced the payment for special classes.

I still cannot believe the poster that commented that Payap is equal to CMU. Payap is a very low ranked university with very low standards. They have open admissions first of all.

There is still the community colleges for the real poor that cannot afford 15k a semester. Very few get accepted into CMU anyway except for the exemption for Northern preference. Kids that go to government public schools for M1-6 rarely do well enough on the entrance exams anyway.

[Ulysses G.]

Thailand is slowly but surely morphing into the american model of life, just like the UK and australia did, and pretty much europe too. Capitalism, the rampant version, is knocking on the doors of this country in several ways. Privatising unis is just one part of the overall conversion. Corporate sorts rule the world innit.

I often see thailand as pretty much just being about 20 years behind my home country, the UK. And i know much of our life now follows the US model, as does australia.

If you ain't got money, tough, go beg.

I don't remember any of these countries ever being socialist paradises.

[femi fan]

I don't remember any of these countries ever being socialist paradises.

Ah mate, i can recall the days when university education was free in england. You got grants from local councils. At least that's the way i recall it. I'm talking late 70s early 80s. I wouldn't say socialist, but at least getting into a uni was a pretty level playing field that allowed both poor and rich to get there.

I then watched for ten years while everything except air was privatised.

[femi fan]

I still cannot believe the poster that commented that Payap is equal to CMU. Payap is a very low ranked university with very low standards. They have open admissions first of all.

Is there any chance you could provide a link or some kind of evidence for this claim?

[Ulysses G.]

I don't remember any of these countries ever being socialist paradises.

Ah mate, i can recall the days when university education was free in england. You got grants from local councils. At least that's the way i recall it. I'm talking late 70s early 80s. I wouldn't say socialist, but at least getting into a uni was a pretty level playing field that allowed both poor and rich to get there.

I then watched for ten years while everything except air was privatised.

There were lots of places in the US that Uni were almost free when I was going and you could also get student loans to pay for living expenses so you could mostly avoid having to work while you were studying.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[femi fan]

I don't remember any of these countries ever being socialist paradises.

Ah mate, i can recall the days when university education was free in england. You got grants from local councils. At least that's the way i recall it. I'm talking late 70s early 80s. I wouldn't say socialist, but at least getting into a uni was a pretty level playing field that allowed both poor and rich to get there.

I then watched for ten years while everything except air was privatised.

There were lots of places in the US that Uni were almost free when I was going and you could also get student loans to pay for living expenses so you could mostly avoid having to work while you were studying.

How times change eh! So even the US had socialist tendencies, wow!!

But the corporations and subsequent corporate-speak took over. Is that why we all escaped to thailand....

[Tywais]

I still cannot believe the poster that commented that Payap is equal to CMU. Payap is a very low ranked university with very low standards. They have open admissions first of all.

Is there any chance you could provide a link or some kind of evidence for this claim?

As for ranking, they show as #33 out of 44 with CMU as #7 country wide. For world ranking, Payap comes in at 2549 and CMU at 478.

Sources: Thanapon and webometrics.

[femi fan]

As for ranking, they show as #33 out of 44 with CMU as #7 country wide. For world ranking, Payap comes in at 2549 and CMU at 478.

Sources: Thanapon and webometrics.

Good find. But, on what criteria are they judged? This is the problem.

Unis are unis. Teachers are teachers. Get lucky and you're lucky...

[heybruce]

Regarding the tuition increase. For the last few years they have been switching between tuition + charge/unit to packages. Units have been around 30-50 Baht/unit. With the integrated package the total cost depends on the program being enrolled in. Engineering for example is a fairly high package cost due to lab/project expense of the department. Discussed this with 3 professors and if there is a doubling it would be a specific program and not across the board and they would be surprised at that much of a jump.

The student I spoke with is by necessity very cost conscious and clear that the undergraduate tuition was going from 8,000 baht a semester to 15,000, and graduate tuition from 12,000 baht to 25,000. This may have been the costs for degrees in Organic Chemistry, which is her major and is very laboratory intensive; she practically lived in the lab much of this semester.

I assume that degrees that require frequent use of a modern, well-equipped laboratory are more expensive than degrees that only require pencil, paper, internet access and a library. But pricing the expensive degrees, science and engineering, out of reach is foolish. A successful modern economy requires an educated workforce, and ambitious, far-thinking developing countries are trying to educate their population, with the emphasis on science and engineering. I think the Thai government is making a mistake here.

[Tywais]

The 25,000 Baht for certain graduate programs is correct but not new. However different programs are still restructuring their package costs and perhaps she is caught up in it. As I mentioned, talk to her about applying for a fellowship if she is going to enter a graduate program. My understanding the government is quite generous in this area and a student with a reasonable academic standing has a very good chance of getting one.

Nearly all my graduate students have fellowships. As for undergrad, government student loans are also available so it doesn't preclude those who want to go the opportunity. Economics has changed considerably in the last two years and unfortunately education gets caught up in it also.

[Thaihog]

Universities are cheap compared to the overpriced cash cow bilingual schools which are on average 30K per semester....

The private schools here in CM are raking it in..... 30 students plus per class, teachers paid peanuts, do the maths.....

[heybruce]

The 25,000 Baht for certain graduate programs is correct but not new. However different programs are still restructuring their package costs and perhaps she is caught up in it. As I mentioned, talk to her about applying for a fellowship if she is going to enter a graduate program. My understanding the government is quite generous in this area and a student with a reasonable academic standing has a very good chance of getting one.

Nearly all my graduate students have fellowships. As for undergrad, government student loans are also available so it doesn't preclude those who want to go the opportunity. Economics has changed considerably in the last two years and unfortunately education gets caught up in it also.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll pass it on. But this student, a former student of mine, is a pretty sharp person, I suspect she has already checked out financial aid packages, and may be following up now. She has been wavering between grad school and finding work for months, she has job possibilities in Bangkok but doesn't want to live there (I can relate). When she told me tuitions were doubling I wondered what that meant for the future of CMU.

[Lordfoul]

http://iu.qs.com/2009/05/12/qs-com-asian-u...gs-the-top-100/

Ranks CMU 81st in Asia (while Thammasat ranks 85!)

I can't find the full original article where they discuss their criteria, but I seem to remember published papers, class size and amount of exchange students being part of it.

As for ranking, they show as #33 out of 44 with CMU as #7 country wide. For world ranking, Payap comes in at 2549 and CMU at 478.

Sources: Thanapon and webometrics.

Good find. But, on what criteria are they judged? This is the problem.

Unis are unis. Teachers are teachers. Get lucky and you're lucky...

Edited February 19, 2010 by Lordfoul

[BlackArtemis]

Not only that, talk to people who have gone to both.

My wife did her BA at CMU and studied at Payap for her MS (she did her studying in the English program, not Thai). She had two girls who had 3.67+ Gpa's from Payap but were doing worse than students with 2.5's from CMU, infact the payap grads were at the bottom of the class. Furthermore all the headaches Payap gave her ended up not having a degree despite only having a thesis to defend. Two of my family members work there and constantly talk about the student body shrinking and entrance standards dropping to make up for this.

But if people don't want to take placement studies as facts, I doubt they will care about what I have to say.