Falang Name On Land Title

[bangsaen bob]

My wife and I just transferred land into her name. On the title, under the sale to my wife is another notation. Transliterated into English it is Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit, then my wifes name and then my name and then the size of the land.

As I understand from my wife and our secretary here at the office, I have life time rights to use the property, and it cannot be sold or mortgaged without both of our signatures. What happens if she dies, I'm not clear about.

I was also told that this is something new under Thai law. Any one know about this?

Bangsaen Bob

[NotaNutter]

Wow! This seems very interesting. I forward to seeing the replies to this post.

[Crossy]

My wife and I just transferred land into her name.  On the title, under the sale to my wife is another notation.  Transliterated into English it is Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit, then my wifes name and then my name and then the size of the land.

As I understand from my wife and our secretary here at the office, I have life time rights to use the property, and it cannot be sold or mortgaged without both of our signatures.  What happens if she dies, I'm not clear about.

I was also told that this is something new under Thai law.  Any one know about this?

Bangsaen Bob

Post a scan of the relevant bit of the document (blank out your names and the location of the property), I'll get our secretary at the office to have a look and see if she comes to the same conclusions.

This could be VERY interesting.

[The_Doctor]

"Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit"

I'm sorry, my Thai isn't that great yet - what does this translate as?

[taxexile]

lifetime right to use the land.

is it farmland ?

[bangsaen bob]

No, it's not farmland. A bit over 500sq meters in a subdivision in Bangsaen with a house.

[NotaNutter]

Did you still have to sign the standard document confirming that your wife paid for the land and that you have no rights to it?

[bangsaen bob]

No, I don't believe I did. We were told it was a new law just in effect to protect falangs from getting ripped off by their wife. But I want to find out the legal meaning to make sure. I'm trying to also check with a falang lawyer that I know in Bangkok. I'll post that result when I get it.

[taxexile]

We were told it was a new law just in effect to protect falangs from getting ripped off by their wife

[NotaNutter]

But that would be fair to foreigners This sounds too good to be true. Hope it is though.

Edited May 11, 2005 by NotaNutter

[trajan]

No, I don't believe I did.  We were told it was a new law just in effect to protect falangs from getting ripped off by their wife.  But I want to find out the legal meaning to make sure.  I'm trying to also check with a falang lawyer that I know in Bangkok.  I'll post that result when I get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was advised by a lawyer that it is a legal method (and an old legal method normally used by large wealthy (Chinese descended) family clans to keep the family compound or land intact in one piece (instead of subdividing it for distribution to many children) but at the same time securing each child's/dowager's lifetime use rights in the land). This would also work for you as a foreigner (for your lifetime use rights), but begs the disturbing question of the length of your lifetime if a nasty dispute/split arises in the future....It also begs the question of practical problems between the lifetime holder and the title deed holder when actually occupying the land after any split......

The lifetime right is officially recorded in the title deed and cannot be lifted unless the lifetime beneficiary dies or otherwise expressly waives the right (during his/her lifetime).

Alternatively, why not hold the land through a Thai holding company as discussed many times in other threads. The per yeat annual maintenance fee (for bookkepping, corporate filings, tax returns etc.) and declarations of corporate revenue from the land assets are minimal. Later, shares of the holding company can be transferred to your intended beneficiaries or sold to other transferees (and in the case of a nasty split, no one is waiting/hoping for a funeral as in the case of a "Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit" recorded in the title deed).

[Jai Dee]

We were told it was a new law just in effect to protect falangs from getting ripped off by their wife

Now that is interesting news.

Verification from anyone else?

[RDN]

...but begs the disturbing question of the length of your lifetime if a nasty dispute/split arises in the future.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This reminds me of the wrist watch with a life-time guarantee - when it stops working, the strap slits your wrist.

But seriously, isn't this what we all want regarding land rights? The right to stay, live and die on our own little piece of Thailand?

[NotaNutter]

Perhaps the lawyers will not be broadcasting this, or will be reluctant to confirm it.

I heard that even the small-ish foreign oriented law firms here EACH set-up about 20-40 of these companies a month in order for us foreigners to buy a house. They charge about 15,000 for the annual accounts/audit/tax filing per company, let's say they've been in operation for 5 years then they'll be earning steady income of:-

15,000 Baht x 20 (companies per month) x 12 months x 5 years = 18 million each year just for the annual filings (on top of what they charged to set-up the company in the first place).

Let's face it, many foreigners who buy houses here are married to Thai's, or eventually end-up marrying Thai's. This could be very significant. Thanks to Bob for this heads-up. Let's hope it's true.

[Sumitr Man]

It's the first I've heard of this, but is sounds like a change in procedure rather than law. I'll ask around on Monday and see what I can dig up.

Does sound very interesting though - kind of like a benefical right ownership (rather than a legal right), which would go against several fundamental principles of Thai law.

hmmm....

SM

[balou]

I heard this in Pataya in "French alliance", i'm buying a house in Buriram and my wife ask for in mayor's office. They said ther's nothing like that in Thailand, no new laws. But it's the second time i hear about, i think it's not for nothing. Many time Thai people, when they don't know, they say systematicly "no possible".

I think we have to go to BKK to see in land office.

[Sumitr Man]

Having spoken with my contact, at this time things are looking rather jolly.

As I has originally thought, my contact is of the opinion that this is a change in policy, rather than law. She believes that the Land Registration Department is relying on one of 3 sections of the Civil and Commercial Code here. The 3 sections in question are as follows:

Section 1387

An immovable property [land]may be subjected to a servitude by virtue of which the owner of such property is bound, for the benefit of another immovable property, to suffer certain acts affecting his property or to refrain from exercising certain rights inherent in his ownership.

Section 1402

A person who has been granted a right of habitation (arsai) in a building is entitled to occupy such building without paying rent.

Section 1410

The owner of a piece of land may create a right of superficies in favour of another person by giving him the right to own, upon or under land, building, structures or plantations.

However, my contact tells me she has never heard of the Land Registration Department agreeing to do this is favour of a farang. That said, she'll be checking on this, and whether or not it is indeed one of the above 3 sections of the CCC being relied upon, or whether there is indeed some new regulation in place. Hopefully she'll be able to get back to me tomorrow - at which time I shall let you all know what the outcome of her discussions with the Land Registration Department today were.

SM

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Don't hold your breath SM

[RDN]

Don't hold your breath SM 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're definitely a "cup is half empty" sort of guy, Doc. I'll be a "cup is half full" type, until I can't breathe. (Slightly mixed up metaphors )

[Sumitr Man]

Dr P - in Thailand it is never a good idea to hold one's breath...

...unless, of course, one is walking pass an open Klong, in which case it is the advisable course of action to take

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hope springs eternal.

[Pink Mist]

Dr P - in Thailand it is never a good idea to hold one's breath...

...unless, of course, one is walking pass an open Klong, in which case it is the advisable course of action to take

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you got that right

[Jai Dee]

Don't hold your breath SM 

You're definitely a "cup is half empty" sort of guy, Doc. I'll be a "cup is half full" type...

Me too RDN.

Watching and waiting with interest...

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'll wait for the outcome with my trusty half empty cup in hand.

[bangsaen bob]

My farang lawyer friend is out of the country till May 25, so I'll just have to get to get an opinion.

[Sumitr Man]

My contact updated me today that her discussion with the Land Registration Department had been confusing - at best.

Apparently there has been no recent change in policy or law (at least, not in the Greater Bangkok metropolis). What's more, if any LRD is accepting this, they're likely to be doing so under Section 1417 of the CCC, which reads:

An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

...

Finally, if this is being accepted, it is on a piecemeal basis - not only among offices, but aslo officers.

So, it could work, but just in case, take a long a bottle of whiskey

SM

[RDN]

.... usufruct ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To save others the trouble of looking it up :

u·su·fruct  n.      The right to use and enjoy the profits and advantages of something belonging to another as long as the property is not damaged or altered in any way.

[bangsaen bob]

This is an addendum to my previous topic about the same subject.

A lawyer friend of mine checked this out and this is what he told me.

The Thai legal term "Sitthigapgintalordsheevit" is a translation from Roman Law of the term "Usufruct".

He said the best way to describe it in our way of thinking is "A lifetime lease"

My signature is not required for the wife/owner to mortgage or sell the property, but that would not affect my rights to life time inhabitance. So, it effect, no one would buy it or loan money on it with my name on the title.

I cannot sub lease the property.

Potential problems, if the owner dies, that does not effect my rights, but maybe the new owners unlawfully force you out. Of course of the owner has a will, then it's carried out.

This is nothing new, but I guess not used much. Hard to say

It seem like a suitable way of helping to secure my assets. It's funny that this couse of action seems to be not really know about?

It costs 75 THB to add this to the land deed/title.

If anyone want's a copy of the part of our title that has this on it, e-mail me and I will send a copy. address [email protected]

[RDN]

The two topics have been merged.

RDN

[COBBER]

I believe that the property cannot be more than 1 rai in size and you can only do this with 1 property. As Bob says, the Thai wifes name is on the title and there is a notation that you have an interest in the property. The property cannot be sold ,mortgaged or sub let without your consent and you cannot be thrown off the property.

As i see it the only drawback might be if the relationship breaks up, and you wish to sell the property. Who gets the proceeds from the sale? A friend went through this and his Lawyer advised that if they took this through the court system he would get 100% of the proceeds of the sale but it would take 3-5 years to go through the system. In the end he decided to make a settlement payment to his ex wife instead of waiting for 5 years to go through the courts.