Farang, Thai, And A Baby..help

[anza1]

Hello all,

I have some issues regarding my situation that some of you may have been through or have some suggestions on.

I have a new daughter that was born almost 2 months ago and she is cute and precious as could be. My girlfriend and I had been together for about 9 months and things were not running smoothly. We were consistently fighting and I was working on finally breaking up. Then low and behold she’s pregnant.

I have attempted in the last 12 months or so to do the right thing including getting married and make this work. (I still don’t know if getting married was right or not, but that’s the way it unfolded)

I have found over time that my wife and I are truly different and that we don’t have much in common. I think it’s due to the cultural differences and the way we were raised. My idea was to be in a relationship that inspired growth while setting goals in our life and going for those goals together.

It seems that we cannot discuss any issues without me getting frustrated and angry. This is partially due to that she has no experience in basic life skills like paying bills, cooking meals or pretty much anything at all.

I have to repeat myself multiple times before she responds to anything I say or ask. It seems like a form of passive aggressive behavior.

I am now realizing that I don’t only have a new born but I have a 28 year old wife who can’t seem to get the concept of responsibility and I feel that I have two kids.

This is very hard for me to except because we had discussed ideas of starting some sort of business. I have tried to get her schooling, buy her books and even teach her eBay where she could do from home. There has not been 1 idea from her or any drive from her to make anything happen.

Don’t get me wrong this girls is a very nice person who has a year of university and hasn’t been involved in the bars or that type of scene (I am not saying that all bar girls are bad either).

I don’t want to come out as if she is all bad because she is not. I sometimes think that I have too many expectations for her but these are something’s that have been hard for me to get over. So far she is a great mother and good for the baby. But, as the days pass we are proving that we are not compatible which makes me feel like a real jerk. It was my intention to make this work, and I want to live up to being a good father and being there for my daughter.

However she has been throwing the word divorce around and she has been treating to leave. Honestly I know she isn’t happy either.

Below are the facts of our legal situation and if any of you can steer me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

The Facts

1. We were married about 9 months ago legally through a Thai Ampur

2. She has my last name.

3. The baby has my last name on her birth certificate.

4. I am recognized on the Thai birth certificate as the father

5. I have processed all documents for a US passport which I should have in my possession in the next 3 weeks

My questions are:

A .If we were to separate I understand that we will need to go to the same Ampur were we were married. Is there any way around this?

B. Is there some sort of child support calculation that is used when determining child support? She has got a number of 15,000 per month that I should pay her which is about 42% of my income

C.I want to be involved in the child’s life and I don’t want to take her away from her mother. What type or how much custody is I looking for to guarantee rights to see the baby. I want to be able to make decisions about the baby’s life in regards to school and seeing my relatives in America, that’s if I would like to do this down the road?

D. Is there some sort of document that I can use to do this ourselves? That is if she doesn’t flip out during the process.

E. If I need legal representation do you know any good inexpensive lawyers that will represent me? I wish I could say I had a ton of money but I don’t. We are living paycheck to pay check.

F.What should I keep in mind regarding the cultural sensitivity of all this. My plan is to still stay, live work in Thailand.

G.Do you have any idea on how I should bring all this up to her? She has already started with threats that she is going to my embassy and going to do something. I can’t get it out of her what that means, I think to possibly try and cancel the babies US Passport but I don’t think that can be done without having full custody.

Basically I am a foreigner in a foreign country. I am sure if her or her family has it in them they could make my life miserable. I don’t want to constantly be looking out the window or over my shoulder. Nobody wants to live like that.

I am not running from the conflict I am just sick of it all. I am not one to simply roll over and I want to weigh it all out and do what is best for my daughter.

Thanks for the input

. Anza

[MikeyIdea]

I have a 28 year old wife who can’t seem to get the concept of responsibility and I feel that I have two kids

Welcome to the gang, I also have 2 children, one 5 year old and another one 37 years old

Start reading this http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Friends-Cust...re-t337923.html

Pretty long post you did, can't answer all but I'll be back with some later today

Sorry about your problems but don't worry too much, doesn't help

[anon345535]

sounds like she's related to my ex. i wouldn't worry about things that she says she'll do, i'm sure she'll be more concerned about making herself look a complete idiot and therefore will do nothing. as for thai law you have got married and are the childs legitimate father which makes that process easier but now you also have the complication of divorce, which is something i know FA about in this country.

my advice to you (as some unidentified bloke on the internet) would be to start the ball rolling to end the relationship, i doubt she'll ever change. from the things you have mentioned she sounds exactly like my ex (completely ignorant) and if anything over the 3 years since my daughters birth she just got worse. my biggest regret was to keep giving her chances to change. i also stayed as i didn't want to seperate the 2 of them, in hindsight it was a big mistake, possibly the biggest in my 34 years.

it's not gonna be cheap, it's not gonna be easy....

best of luck :/

[vahack]

sorry for the lack of advice but WELCOME TO THAILAND

[mccw]

Sorry to hear your troubles, but congratulations on your lovely daughter who you obviously care for very much; and glad to see your not one of them who just cuts and runs back to thier country of orrigin never to be seen again!

One of the best things you can do for her is to get her that USA passport! don't cancle it!!! i'm not sure why your thinking about it? but keep it yourself so mum can't sabotage your kids future life choices which might involve moving to the USA for a bit when old enough.

If you can pay 10 or 15,000 bht a month, do it, as this will keep mum and her familly sweet and not make trouble and let you be a part of your daughters life. With out large amounts of legal expenses and things custody and such could be difficult to sort out and then of course she could just bugger off somewhere and you'd have noway to track her down, or simply brothers etc could just make it near impossible to come close anyway.

Pay the money monthly would be easiest and ensure a tie of reliance, atleast until a richer man could take over; but even then by endering yourself and hopefully over time developing a cordial rellationship between you and the mamma based around your kids happiness, in the event that she did meet someone else she will still realise your worth in being a part of your kids life. As your kid gets bigger and she shows how she loves her daddy makmak it'll become less likely that mother would want to hurt her kid by taking her away from you.

42% of your earnings might seem alot but 10-15k amonth is what supporting your kid would cost you anyway together or not.

I spend 3k a month for nursery school, about 5k on nappies and milk, plus easilly another 3-5 on food; then there's petrol and occasional toys and don't forget all the medical bills like a few thousand here and there for imunisations etc. You should think about medical insurance incase of a hospital stay! 3 days last month cost 25k (for me that was, but you get the idea). When they get bigger they'll be uniforms and stationary and book and things to by too!

maybe try to deal say 12k to start with rising to 15 once she starts school and you get her medical insurance under your name so you can be sure its happens.

Having kids demands scrafice whether your together or not; maybe more if your together even! at least you'll still be able to have your own life and enjoy to be a part of your daughters, if you play your cards right.

Good luck

[samuibeachcomber]

I would take one step at a time.you will not change them,dont try.If for what ever reason she continues to want to separate she wil have to wait one year from date of marraige to go back to the amphur to file for divorce.You are caught between a rock and a hard place as she will leverage you over the emotional feelings with regard to your child.Financial support mentioned of 15,000 baht per month,while not extreme,is not really necessary while your child is so young,offer half,more than enough.I am sorry for your predicament,if its any consolation,you are among many with a similar problem.

Dont ruin your own life over this,sometimes there's little you can do if your wife is determined to go down this path,and you will fight a battle you cannot win.Move out of the home and give here the weekly allowance,but not as much as she would like.She will use visitation rights(should you leave)to extract more money out of you.How you handle this will determine your own future sanity.

[MikeyIdea]

Sorry to hear about your problems Anza, a child normally make problems in a relationship worse, not better. It is pretty common in Thailand that the girl gets pregnant when the man wants to break up, I suppose no one except the mother knows for sure and I must say that it doesn’t matter any longer.

The relationship / marriage is maybe impossible to repair, it sounds like that and sooner or later it will break I suppose. I try to see things from the childs perspective and she’s only 2 months old so I do have some input I want to give here. I am not against the advice of the other posters in principle, just on the timing of it all

One major point here. If the child was born only 2 months ago, then now is absolutely the wrong time. Don’t even think about schooling, books to read for the mother or anything like that (except books about bringing up your child of course, they are generally much needed and the new Thai mother normally equally much resists reading them for some reason…). Of course there won’t be even 1 idea from her or any drive from her to make anything happen. She was pregnant most of last year and she is a new mother this year and as always in Thailand, she is ill-prepared for the job she has at hand. How can you expect her to think about business now? Sounds selfish of you to be honest, or perhaps un-thoughtful to say the least. She has her goal, not your goal, she is a mother doing what she has been brought up to do all her life, she is high on hormones, get this; You matter not

This is normal in most relationships when the mother has given birth, it is nature and it is fact.

My idea was to be in a relationship that inspired growth while setting goals in our life and going for those goals together

Sounds American, it’s good of course but different people work differently depending on how they were brought up. You were brought up to have a (positive) driving force in life, to question things, to have initiative and self confidence. She was brought up with the driving force based on “must do”, that questioning things is bad or at least useless, her parents probably saw a clear connection between their child having initiative and self confidence and being a difficult child, explaining why they actively tried to suppress it. And she is a new mother. I don’t think that it is fair to blame her for not being interested in working for your goals at this time. Are your expectations too high? Yes, I think they are. Have you asked the mother what her expectations for the next 3 years are? Do it, I bet she will answer stay at home and take care of the child and you say that she is good at it. Lucky guy, many others here have the opposite problem

Bad time Anza, really bad time. You will most likely have to do what you think of doing but can you wait 6 months or more maybe? As for the custody bit, yes, you will get 50/50 custody but young children need their mother and you will not be allowed to take the child from the mother yet so you your only way to see your child will be to come and visit your ex wife for the time being. I don’t know when Thai Juvenile courts think it appropriate to separate mother and child, I have no idea, probably close to a year old

[Mario2008]

You can get divorced at any amphur, if both of you agree. if not, you can only get a divorce by going to court and you will need to for fill one of the grounds under which you can get a divorce. For the amphur no ground is needed, only that you both want to divorce.

You might want to contact a lawyer for the divorce, to make the arrangement regarding custody and visitation rights, child support etc. Isaanlawyers is a good one to contact, but I don't know where you are located.

[MikeyIdea]

However she has been throwing the word divorce around and she has been treating to leave.

Ask her a day when she is relaxed, not angry or upset if she really means it. The answer should give you more information to base a decision that is going to affect the rest of your life on. Most relationship problems people have is because communication doesn't work. Westerners are brought up believing that most problems must be fixed on the spot while Asians have a totally opposite tactic. If you want to communicate and discuss the problems you have then you must first be tactical in the timing of it, then be open.

True that she won't change, can you accept that your expectations were wrong, work for the goals you have yourself (and let her work for the goals she has, probably to be a good mother and a house wife) and appreciate that she's what you yourself say is a good mother for your child? If you do, would problems go down? Could you be happy and satisfied with that and the other good sides you say she has? If you don't think so, then divorce is the only way anyway.

You will be seen as someone not good by the mother and her family, you desert the family when the child is less than 6 months old, you will pay but money is not enough. You yourself say that "So far she is a great mother and good for the baby" so you should not have and will not get more than 50% custody (you should easily get 50% custody though). You must understand that with such a young child, practically the mother has 100% of the time and the father only visitation rights, it will change when the child gets older but that is where you start.

You're legally married so we are not only talking money for the child (which by the way is more for really young children than for 4 year olds) and although 15,000 bath could be a bit much, 10,000 is not really. That's some 4,000 bath for the child and 6,000 bath for the ex wife. That's not unreasonable I think. Look, I don't know exactly how much, I'm just saying that if it can be less, then it can't be that much actually. The mother can't work right now obviously, what's a fair amount? Not less than 10,000 bath I think

OP, think carefully here. The mother can't live on 10,000 bath per month and support her child without working in a city (and that is not generally the meaning of the money side of a divorce agreement either). She will probably (have to) move home to her parents or some other relative. She has the right to do that, doesn't she? I don't think that wherever she has to move to has to be close to where you work and live. Say that she will stay there for 6 months to a year maybe, this is not unfair I think and then the child is old enough so that you can use your 50% custody to actually bring the child to your place and not just visit the child at the mothers place. There is no way that you legally can force her to move close to where you live

Gives a bit to think about.

Is communication something you think is worth exploring? It normally sucks in relationships with problems

Edited February 18, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

I should add that since you legally married the mother you already have 50% custody and that is not going to change because you divorce the mother, unless the divorce agreement states something different

Of course, get the American passport and citizenship sorted out before you mention a single word more about divorce. Britain and Sweden for instance are 2 countries that require the mothers ID card or passport in original (Sweden also require the mother to come in person to sign). I don’t know American rules but if it is required and the mother refuses to do it, what do you do?

Your biggest problem is going to be how to be a good father to your child; How are you not going to be a bit of a stranger to your child? She’s going to spend most of the time with the mother, is she going to cry and not want to come to you?

Not easy – all the luck

[dmax]

only advice i can give is persevere, well thats what i am doing, you are not alone and reading your post i am exactly in the same position as you, i want to end it but i wont for my childs sake, my wife is an x bar girl with no education, she gets aggressive sometimes usually every month womans problems, i too feel like i have 2 children, my wife does some silly things and just this morning leaving her to work i wrote her a letter to give to her boss , i put her bosses name and his assistants name on front of envelope, she says " i have only one boss" i said yes but he is not there every day give it to assistant manager, she refused to do this and went to put letter in the bin..<deleted> cracks me right up.. anyway she is a good mother and a good person but has her downside obviously, shes beautifull too of course .. also on the way to work she puts baby in a moses basket in back of car with no seat belt round it i told her its illegal here in uk and not same thailand 2 up to me " gggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

if i leave her she will be truly lost and its my kid im protecting, i wont give up n my daughter so im prepared for the long haul im afraid. should of said also that because of her behaviour it has sometimes put me off sex with her and to the point i dont want to touch her.

i wish you and you kid all the best mate, you will need it !!

chin up

[anza1]

Thanks to all your ideas, thoughts and experiences, there is a lot of good points. I am going to take the next few days and take in some of the advice and just try and keep things cool.

[Paul888]

Very good advice from mikeyidea.

Even if you are a very helpful supporting father, a new mother of a 2 month old baby will be constantly tired, and in the process of adapting her daily routines to the needs and demands of her baby. The last thing she would want to think about is schooling and or making money. It is not really fair to expect her to.

She (rightly in my opinion) is looking to you to provide the money the family needs while she does her important job of nurturing your new child. If money is tight, work harder or spend less, the answer is not to make her contribute at this time. (unless you will take over looking after the baby 24/7?)

I didn't see you mention how old you are but I am guessing that you are older than your wife. As most of us are. You have to remember the trade offs with having a younger less experienced wife. I am guessing her ability to study and use ebay were not what originally attracted you to her?

My humble advice as a father of 2 Thai children is to stop thinking about how much she irritates you right now, bite your tongue for a few months, and think of the child. Try to relieve some of her burden by taking over some of the chores associated with the baby...night time feeding, changing the odd nappy, doing the family shopping, taking the baby out for a walk, cleaning the house etc to give her fixed time everyday that she can call her own, and relax or sleep.

I took over the nightly feeds and nappy changes of our babies so that their mother(s) (in my case) could at least get some uninterrupted sleep which paid dividends in a less tired more relaxed mother.

Mikeyidea is especially right about timing. Even if you have hitherto been a saint, walking out on a 2 month old baby is not going to make you popular with anybody.

If you still after a period of time feel the same, try to make it as amicable as possible if you intend to stay here.

[a2396]

Child support? I know the OP is a foreigner. But for comparison, how many Thai men pay child support?

[christiaan]

You are in trouble and your wife is too. I do not think one of you are or will become happy in this situation. How old are you? How old is your wife? You did not tell how long you live in Thailand. Are you in Thailand. Are you familiar with Thai culture? I have a kind of feeling it is possible you do not realy know Asian culture. Can you imagine how she would behave when she would have a Thai husband in the same situation? Can you imagine how her Thai husband then would handle the situation? You both could have ' choosen' to have a love relation, aware or unaware, but did you both also decided to change as a person? Did you both decide to meet eachother in changing in cultural way? I think you should realize it is often far more easy for a foreigner to be interested, to meet and to adept in some way to another culture. I have learned to realise that as a well educated westerner you cannot expect the same of people living in a lot of other cultures. You cannot blame them for this too. You just have to realise that is the situation to deal with. What ever you do, never forget love can be a strong force to meet eachother, it should be. Try to see if you can find out what she would tell when you ask her how a Thai husband would handle the situation you are in to. Never forget love, real love, the one that should come along with the physical part, or go ahead of it.

[Paul888]

Child support? I know the OP is a foreigner. But for comparison, how many Thai men pay child support?

Less than 1% I would guess but all fathers SHOULD support their children.

[retiredusn]

Not to sound Hard but with the timing and you were already thinking of getting out of the situation get a DNA prior to any major decisions.

[phkeneh]

Anza,

You said you processed the paperwork for a US Passport and will get it in 3 weeks. Did you already go to the interview with your wife and daughter and she will be granted a passport without you taking a DNA test with your daughter? If so, consider yourself lucky and the money you saved not getting DNA tests. I had a daughter out of wedlock and had to take a DNA with her. But I was told by the US Embassy interviewer DNA tests are on a case by case basis and sometimes even if the parents are married they can ask for a DNA test. Guess if an 80 year old guy comes in with his 18 year old wife with a baby they might not believe he is the father

Also I can tell you from experience up until your daughter is 16 years old when she needs a new passport both parents have to agree to it either by both appearing in person with the child or one having to sign and notarize a consent form. If the mother refuses to give consent you will have to have a court order saying you have custody of the child to get her a passport without the mothers consent. This can cause a lot of problems for your daughter's future passports if you and your wife do get divorced and it wasnt on good terms or you are still legally married but long separated or barely speaking to each other. So keep this in mind when you start making decisions about your marriage and the relationship with your wife or ex wife in the future. She has the power to screw your daughter out of a new passport if she wishes.

What I learned after marrying an Asian lady and it falling apart is...Its hard enough having a successful marriage with a partner from your own culture...it's 100 times harder with a partner from another culture.

Best of luck to you, your wife and your daughter.

[MikeyIdea]

Child support? I know the OP is a foreigner. But for comparison, how many Thai men pay child support?

Less than 1% I would guess but all fathers SHOULD support their children.

Thai fathers who want to see their children do pay of course. I know quite a few Thai men who are divorced at work and privately, all of them pay support and they all want to be part of their childrens life. Actually 3 of them spend more time with their children than the mother get to do because the children themselves push for it to be that way. Unfortunately, the opposite is only too common in Thailand

All westerners I have heard think that Thai law is crap but I don't. Thai law has a dilemma and it dares to deal with it (I don't think it's 99% of all men though). I think Thai law does exacly what it should do, it tries to protect the child. What I mean is of course that if a child is born out of wedlock in Thailand, then that child only has one parent with parental powers (custody). The father is not a legal father and has no obligation to pay any child suppport, has no right to see his child if the mother does not agree, and the mother cannot demand the father to pay either. Any father who is not prepared to marry the mother but wants to be recognised as the legal father has to get his child legitimized. I had to do exacly that and it cost me a total of 200 bath.

The law can't protect all equally so it tries to protect where it is needed the most and fathers who don't fit into that category just continue to be fathers the Thai way (where it matters, in real life, but not according to law) and either don't know or close their eyes to the situation until problems already have arisen, or they go through the process of legitimization.

Edit: Added the last paragraph

Edited February 22, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[tigerfish]

just one small thing that has not been metioned, i think from briefly looking at all the other posts.

when your daughter was born, yes you got the birth certificate with your name on it as the father. afterwards though, did you and your wife both register her at the local amphur.

thai law works in mysterious ways and is different to our foreign ones.

if i am wright and please anyone correct me if i am wrong, but your name on the birth certificate is not enough. in thailand you have the go along to the local amphur yourself and register your child. otherwise you will not be recognised as the natural father when it comes down to legal proceedings.

sorry not trying to put the mockers on your situation, it sounds tough enough as it is already. just thought you should know.

[Mario2008]

The OP has married his girlfriend, regardless if that was before or after the birth, he is the legal father.

[TheLaughingMan]

"My idea was to be in a relationship that inspired growth while setting goals in our life and going for those goals together."

It's funny because you were serious.

[StreetCowboy]

"My idea was to be in a relationship that inspired growth while setting goals in our life and going for those goals together."

It's funny because you were serious.

That's a bit pots and kettles, isn't it?

SC

[jayinoz]

"My idea was to be in a relationship that inspired growth while setting goals in our life and going for those goals together."

It's funny because you were serious.

That's a bit pots and kettles, isn't it?

SC

Yes i had a good laugh at that one also....

Read a few cultural books on relationships- you will find the Thai-Farang relationship has completely differing values. I have had 3 Thai wives (Countless others as most have here) and wish I had read this particular book from when I started coming to thai over 10 years ago (In mid 20s, now mid 30s). Thailand Fever- it specifically deals with the complexities of Thai-Farang relationship... If you read this at the start of your Thai or Asian journey I often think I would have not bothered. Yet now glad to put in the effort...

All comes down to the number 1 value in a Thai Vs Farang. Farang it is to be independant. Thai it is to be Nam Jai (generous from heart)- read the book. Your confusion in her lack of ambition will become clear.

Left hand side is written in English and the left is Thai--- so she must read the book as well. Then discuss it together.

Then often it still cannot work out as we have been breed the Farang way and most of us cannot easily be Nam Jai without the assurance of something in return. I am sure she has lost a lot of face, as you got married with no dowry, etc.

You can haggle over child support. With my first wife I did not agree that her Mum was the owner of a Karoke (Selling young girls), so saw my daughters life of only prostitution in the future. She now lives happily in Aussie with my parents. I live mostly in Thai with my new thai family and see my daughter when possible. I choose the expensive option, as it costs me approx $1000 pm to support my daughter in Aussie. Whilst my new wife and son and I live happily off less than $1000 in Thai. So must make Farang money in Thailand- thus am a stockbroker for better or worse ATM.

If you afraid for your daughter in regards to what I have mentioned above- family is into some sort of Karoke or selling off daughters to the sex trade. Think about supporting her yourself. I spend 3 years in Aussie supporting my daughter then my parents offerred to take over when I wished to pursue my past biz's in Asia and relationship in Thai.

You need to find the right mix for you- for most I advise against even trying a Farang-Thai. Yet if you wish her to adapt to farang culture in Thailand it will never happen. To adapt in your country it rarely happens- some are lucky enough to find a willing one.

Other Farangs like myself develop a sense of dislike towards our Farang culture and decide to adopt a new one. This takes some doing and a great deal of time and energy.

15000bt is for her to take care of herself, child and parent in her village I suspect- 42% of income. Saves Face- show off baby then go get another man.... Mmmmm. If you wish to return home she can comfortably live off 8-10K bt. And get a BETTER JOB. Lol.

The less you give her the faster she will find a new man to live off I suspect- yet I do not know her. Whether she traditionally minded or thai- I suspect both. You leave and she will leave child with parents to find another man. A man who will be Nma Jai to her family and her. That is the ultimate dream for most.

Now she will be considered too worn out for a respectable Thai man- she choose the Farang way. Hope she finds the right one that will adapt to her needs. As it sounds like she will never adapt to yours...

Trust me I have many years and money (No wasted- educational I tell myself) on setting up GH's, market stalls, resturants, etc. I have build 3 seperate houses in Thailand- Oh boy can I get a great deal on building materials NOW- Lol. 2 of which I can never touch under threat of gun men- even when I have 30 + 30 leases over them. Yet the houses now support 2 Thai extended families... So I come to write it off as charity expenses (Farang way- Lol).

So you can say I have done my time...

Sounds like she will never adapt to YOUR way (Farang). She wants a man to adapt to her.

Every Thai girl should read this 'Thai Fever' book also before embarking on the race for a Farang. As most would not bother also if they knew the truth. That we would PUSH them to be independant- most do not want for any such thing, not even a word in their dictionary for it.

Yet she may find a Farang whom lives here and has learnt to respect the culture- I can give her a fair few phone numbers- Lol.

Anyway it is all life experience- do not regret- accept it and move on. Chok Dee.