Talk Nuances Of Love And Sex In Thai Language & Culture – With A Thai Woman

[kaewmala]

Don’t be alarmed (or prematurely too delighted), there’s nothing hanky-panky here. It's all educational.

Just want to let those interested in learning Thai (esp. its cultural nuances) know of a new resource, a Thai woman (myself) who wrote a book called “sex talk: in search of love and romance,” which is both a kind of dictionary and a cultural discussion from a Thai female perspective on love, romance, sexuality, and male-female relationships in Thai language and culture.

If you like learning Thai idioms and phrases like จับปลาสองมือ (“catch a fish in each hand” or “catch two fish with both hands”) and ตอนให้เป็ดกิน (“cut and feed to the duck”), or wonder what it means by สะดือด่วน (“navel express”) or กินแห้ว (“eat the water chestnut”), you might enjoy discussing with me on my blog (in my signature). I also take questions about Thai language or the cultural aspect of Thai-farang relationship.

Anyone on Twitter can also get short English translation bits of romantic & erotic Thai vocabulary I tweet daily (link to follow me on Twitter on my blog as well). Thanks and hope to see you there (or here).

[Johpa]

FWIW, I have been acquainted with Kaewmala for many years and she is the real deal here. She provides the rare opportunity to get feedback from a true bilingual and bi-cultural Thai woman with both a substantial academic resume as well as an impressive resume from working for major NGOs in the social sphere not only in Thailand but throughout Southeast Asia. I doubt anyone was more surprised than me to see her pop up here on SCT. Her presence here in the Thai language forum brings an entirely new dimension, a very positive and complementary new dimension, to this board.

[anchan42]

สะดือด่วน is new to me, a-nowhere-near-true-bilingual-Thai.

Probably teenager slang. I wonder what it means....

[kaewmala]

FWIW, I have been acquainted with Kaewmala for many years and she is the real deal here. ...

Much obliged , Jopha, but you're making me blush with such an excessively glowing introduction. เกินไปหน่อยนะคะ (a little over the top, na Lung). And you confused Thaivisa.com with SCT! This confirms that you are now officially upgraded to อุ้ย /úi/, and no longer Lung.

สะดือด่วน is new to me, a-nowhere-near-true-bilingual-Thai.

Probably teenager slang. I wonder what it means....

anchan42, สะดือด่วน /sà-duue dùan/ ("navel express") is a recent slang, perhaps not yet widely adopted in the mainstream (I don't remember exactly where I got this term - not in any of my slang dictionaries). It means basically the same as ไวไฟ /wai fai/ describing those who are a little "fast" gettng into sexual relations--i.e. sexually loose. I imagine สะดือด่วน has more of a sting than ไวไฟ. Anyone?

ciao, for now

[desi]

Hi Kaewmala! Fabulous to see you on TV

[bina]

kaewmala...

well, that makes about two or three thai women on the board... anhows, kaemala i found your blog and found the song love over the skyline u had translated: i have to look up the translations i have of it; many years ago (actually 2006) when i married my thai husband i used that song exactly for part of a photo montage at my wedding party in israel. and the one line from it was written in thai at our thai wedding in korat...

nothing to do with anything, just some trivia ... the song was translated by several people from here on the board... now i will do a comparison... )

anyways, cme visit the ladies section, we could use some thai women's voices also..

bina

israel

[farangnahrak]

Lets hope kaewmala decides to occasionally visit us and help out, and not just promote her book

(not sarcasm, being serious here)

I'll keep an eye out for the book in bookstores. I like to look before I buy

btw, thanks for explaining หัวบันไดไม่แห้ง . . . years ago this Thai lady told me that about herself trying to flirt with me . . . I figured out what it meant, but couldn't for the life of me figure out what it had to do with a wet staircase . . .

[kaewmala]

kaewmala...

well, that makes about two or three thai women on the board... anhows, kaemala i found your blog and found the song love over the skyline u had translated ... [snip] ... i will do a comparison... )

anyways, cme visit the ladies section, we could use some thai women's voices also...

Thanks for the friendly welcome, desi, bina, and farangnahrak. (Here I go again, a deja vu of being among the handful Thai female voices on a discussion board. ) About the translation of the song lyrics of รักข้ามขอบฟ้า, I'd love to see that collectively translated version you mentioned, bina. Without any poetic flair to speak of, I was lucky to string words together to more or less ดำน้ำ* / dam náam/ and made the translation appear vaguely poetic. (*slang, does not mean "to dive" but "to fudge on") I'd to see how others, esp. likely those with better skills, translate it.

Lets hope kaewmala decides to occasionally visit us and help out, and not just promote her book

(not sarcasm, being serious here)

I'll keep an eye out for the book in bookstores. I like to look before I buy

btw, thanks for explaining หัวบันไดไม่แห้ง . . . years ago this Thai lady told me that about herself trying to flirt with me . . . I figured out what it meant, but couldn't for the life of me figure out what it had to do with a wet staircase . . .

farangnahrak, aren't we a bit cynical? But then I think your cynicism is justified (I know other authors who relentlessly promote their own books). However, I have almost no commercial bone in my body, if I have to rely selling my books for a living, I am quite certain I'll starve in no time. Having said that, I wouldn't mind if anyone would buy it .

BTW, the idiom you mentioned is actually หัวกระไดไม่แห้ง /hǔa krà-dai mai hÊEng/- it's กระได /krà-dai/ not บันได /ban-dai/, although the two words mean exactly the same: staircase or stairs. For those who don't know the expression, it literally translates to "wet top of staircase" or "wet top of stairs", meaning heavily trafficked stairs as a result of an extremely attractive daughter of the house, or power and influence of someone in the house. (See more explanation on my blog.)

Also, before anyone gets a wrong impression, I'd better clarify my Thai language abilities. Kham muang คำเมือง(northern Thai dialect) is my mother tongue (like most khon muangs, I only speak it) and central standard Thai is my native tongue. However, I have no linguistic background whatsoever, and cannot claim to even understand, let alone, articulate any Thai grammatical rules. What I can offer is the perspective of a native speaker. I'm particularly interested in the etymology and the cultural aspect of words and meanings -- how they are constructed, used and change over time.

Thanks again, and I'll try to visit regularly.

[farangnahrak]

BTW, the idiom you mentioned is actually หัวกระไดไม่แห้ง /hǔa krà-dai mai hÊEng/- it's กระได /krà-dai/ not บันได /ban-dai/, although the two words mean exactly the same: staircase or stairs.

บันใด was the word used in my case by two Thai ladies . . . is there an equivalent for a guy who has girls always chasing him? I've been told no, but your article suggests you can use this phrase for guys but that its really rare.

[kaewmala]

BTW, the idiom you mentioned is actually หัวกระไดไม่แห้ง /hǔa krà-dai mai hÊEng/- it's กระได /krà-dai/ not บันได /ban-dai/, although the two words mean exactly the same: staircase or stairs.

บันใด was the word used in my case by two Thai ladies . . . is there an equivalent for a guy who has girls always chasing him? I've been told no, but your article suggests you can use this phrase for guys but that its really rare.

Interestingly enough I have never heard anyone say หัวบันไดไม่แห้ง /hǔa ban-dai mai hÊEng/, but apparently it is also used by some (many?) people. I searched and found The Royal Institute's explanation of this expression, listing only หัวกระไดไม่แห้ง /hǔa krà-dai mai hÊEng/ but with a note that "some people may use หัวบันไดไม่แห้ง".

The eminent expert Dr. Kanjana Naaksakul ศ. ดร.กาญจนา นาคสกุล illuminates on กระได and บันได here. Basically she said, กระได is an informal, spoken term, and though she did not say it but implied that it is the original term for stairs (used in the idiom concerned), and บันได is a new (contemporary), written term. She did not mention anything about บันได being used in the idiom or not.

Incidentally I was planning to write more on stairs-related terms on my blog - in a day or two. So, this piece of new information comes in handy. Thanks, farangnahrak. (I'm not pedantic - at least try not to be. When enough people adopt a newer version of an expression, then it is likely to stick or even replace the original expression eventually.)

[kaewmala]

. . . is there an equivalent for a guy who has girls always chasing him? I've been told no, but your article suggests you can use this phrase for guys but that its really rare.

Sorry, forgot to answer your question. Cannot think of an old idiomatic equivalent for men (different standards of propriety and expectations regarding men's and women's behavior as you'd expect). But a new slang comes very close: สาวตรึม /sǎaw truem/, which means [men] "attracting a lot of women". It gives an image of a guy at the center with women surrounding, swarming over him.

[farangnahrak]

I asked my girl, and she said กระใด is an old word while people today only use บันใด. My guess is that the word in the phrase was changed to keep up with the times. 10 years in the US has kept you behind the times

But a new slang comes very close: สาวตรึม /sǎaw truem/, which means [men] "attracting a lot of women". It gives an image of a guy at the center with women surrounding, swarming over him.

I'll experiment on my girl with this word when I get the chance

So how do I use this word in a sentence? ผู้ชายหล่อคนนี้สาวตรึมจังเลย? หย่าขี้หึงนะ ไม่ใช่ความผิดผมที่เป็นแบบสาวตรึมนะ?

[kaewmala]

I asked my girl, and she said กระใด is an old word while people today only use บันใด. My guess is that the word in the phrase was changed to keep up with the times. 10 years in the US has kept you behind the times

Either that, or I'm just old. Or your girl is just young.

But a new slang comes very close: สาวตรึม /sǎaw truem/, which means [men] "attracting a lot of women". It gives an image of a guy at the center with women surrounding, swarming over him.

I'll experiment on my girl with this word when I get the chance

So how do I use this word in a sentence? ผู้ชายหล่อคนนี้สาวตรึมจังเลย? หย่าขี้หึงนะ ไม่ใช่ความผิดผมที่เป็นแบบสาวตรึมนะ?

ผู้ชายหล่อคนนี้สาวตรึมจังเลย >> better ผู้ชายคนนี้สาวตรึม

หย่าขี้หึงนะ ไม่ใช่ความผิดผมที่เป็นแบบสาวตรึมนะ >>better หย่าหึงนะ ไม่ใช่ความผิดผมที่หล่อจนสาวตรึม

[kaewmala]

In case anyone is interested in knowing Thai slang for "toy boy", I've answered a question from a reader on my blog. In short, the slang term "toy boy" does not have a perfect equivalent in Thai, but there are some close approximates.

เด็ก /dèk/ or เด็กเลี้ยง /dèk líiang/ — literally “a kid” or “a kid in one's support”

The latter slang term has an origin in an old Thai tradition called เลี้ยงต้อย /líiang tÔOy/ in which (often) a man or (less often) a woman, raised and groomed a child to become wife or husband (when the child “grew up” and became “old” enough to become one). This is why sometimes, less often though not unheard of, a toy boy (more often toy girl in the Thai case) might be called เด็กเลี้ยงต้อย /dèk líiang tÔOy/ of the sugar daddy or sugar mommy (cougar).

For a fuller explanation, see my blog post today, which contains a picture of มาช่า the Thai famous celeb with her "toy boy".

Also on the previous post on "wet top of staircase" I added a YouTube video and a link to a luuk tung song หัวบันไดไม่แห้ง.

ciao,

[farangnahrak]

kaewmala, I know this phrase isn't used by Thais, and its not a 100% direct translation, but I've used it several times with my Thai friends and have been entirely understood:

"เค้าเป็นของเล่นของผู้หญิงคนนี้อ่ะ"

Also, I've only heard of 'boy toy' . . . google says 800k for 'boy toy', 500k for 'toy boy' . . . so I win

[kaewmala]

kaewmala, I know this phrase isn't used by Thais, and its not a 100% direct translation, but I've used it several times with my Thai friends and have been entirely understood:

"เค้าเป็นของเล่นของผู้หญิงคนนี้อ่ะ"

Also, I've only heard of 'boy toy' . . . google says 800k for 'boy toy', 500k for 'toy boy' . . . so I win

You the man, ฝรั่งน่่ารัก. You win. Feel better?

Actually I've heard both, and have always wondered what's the difference between the two.

So, I looked up Urban Dictionary and got the most accepted definitions of the two:

boy toy = A male used specifically by females for pleasure and fun when their husband or boy friend is not giving them enough attention or in case of break up or divorce

toy boy = Female cradle-robbing. The much younger male partner to an older or middle-aged woman

In the literary sense, "boy toy" is a toy who is a boy) and "toy boy" a boy who is a toy. Either, methinks, would naturally qualify as a ของเล่น, a "plaything."

Now another term comes to mind: ผู้ชายป้ายเหลือง (lit. "yellow sign man"), as in for "temporary parking".

ciao,

[Baa_Mango]

thread is awesome.. one time i meet p'cha when we were all wasted and she didnt want any action from me.. i am definitely young enough.. funny ! anyways very cool stuff kaewmala

[makescents]

Your blog looks intriguing.

I've subscribed.

[farangnahrak]

I used the phrase หย่าหึงนะ ไม่ใช่ความผิดผมที่หล่อจนสาวตรึม on my girl as an experiment the other day . . . mostly to get a reaction . . .

She laughed . . . at me

[kaewmala]

Your blog looks intriguing.

I've subscribed.

Thanks, makescents and Baa_Mang for visiting.

This morning I tweeted this:

กระดังงาลนไฟ /krà-dang-ngaa lon fai/, lit. "smoked ilang-ilang" (fragrant flower) = mature, sexually experienced woman (cougar candidate?)

I try to tweet at least one or two words/expressions like this everyday. Those on Twitter can check me out and decide if you want to follow me.

I also put tweet feed on my blog for those who aren't on Twitter - "My Latest Tweets" on the right sidebar.

I'm contemplating writing a piece about Thai "cougars" and "sugar mommies" (the later my own word, haven't seen or heard it used by others, but there's at least one Thai word for it).

Any ideas?

ciao,

[farangnahrak]

กระดังงาลนไฟ /krà-dang-ngaa lon fai/, lit. "smoked ilang-ilang" (fragrant flower) = mature, sexually experienced woman (cougar candidate?)

Not exactly correct.

กระดังงา is an uninteresting flower, at least until you burn it ลนไฟ and then it smells really good.

Just like a woman, after being married, now knows what makes a man happy (in all the ways a man wants). She'll be much better at seduction, etc.

This woman is typically older, and can be divorced, but doesn't need to be. But be careful when you say this to a divorced woman, it can potentially piss her off

[kaewmala]

I used the phrase หย่าหึงนะ ไม่ใช่ความผิดผมที่หล่อจนสาวตรึม on my girl as an experiment the other day . . . mostly to get a reaction . . .

She laughed . . . at me

guess not for incorrect use of language

[kaewmala]

กระดังงาลนไฟ /krà-dang-ngaa lon fai/, lit. "smoked ilang-ilang" (fragrant flower) = mature, sexually experienced woman (cougar candidate?)

Not exactly correct.

กระดังงา is an uninteresting flower, at least until you burn it ลนไฟ and then it smells really good.

Just like a woman, after being married, now knows what makes a man happy (in all the ways a man wants). She'll be much better at seduction, etc.

This woman is typically older, and can be divorced, but doesn't need to be. But be careful when you say this to a divorced woman, it can potentially piss her off

"Uninteresting" or no would be subjective, ฝรั่งน่ารัก (หรือไม่ ยังไม่ฟันธง). But kradangnga is a fragrant flower. It has long, slender, creamy whit-colored petals, which are very fragrant. (It ain't called "Cananga odorata" in Latin for nothin', buddy.)

The additional definition you gave is more or less correct: when held over a fire (ลนไฟ) (not burnt - เผาไฟ), the fragrant is even more alluring. A woman who has had sexual experience, has bloomed sexually (and yes, knowing her way in the bedroom), has that particular mature woman's appeal. In the old day a woman would have had to be married, or often divorced and once again available to be admired as such (for it would be impolite to refer to a married woman as a กระดังงาลนไฟ). These days, married or divorced (or unmarried) women can be "smoked ilang-ilang".

We have different kinds of divorcee, among them the real one แม่หม้าย /mÊE maay/, แม่หม้ายผัวเผลอ /mÊE maay phǔua phlǒoe/ - as I explain in my book.

Also note that the definition given on Twitter must fit 140 characters, so I do the best I can.

Better get back to work now.

ciao,

[Jeddah Jo]

I was curious about what a Thai woman is feeling when she refers to her husband or partner as her เจ้าของ. I have heard it in both Thai songs and in daily conversation.

Obviously from a Western perspective it would not be understood or accepted, I was just wondering what a Thai lady was feeling emotionally when making such a statement. Is there a sense that she is the property of her husband or more that the husband is her lifelong protector, guardian?

JJ.

[kaewmala]

I was curious about what a Thai woman is feeling when she refers to her husband or partner as her เจ้าของ. I have heard it in both Thai songs and in daily conversation.

Obviously from a Western perspective it would not be understood or accepted, I was just wondering what a Thai lady was feeling emotionally when making such a statement. Is there a sense that she is the property of her husband or more that the husband is her lifelong protector, guardian?

J

As I've never used such a term with my man, I can't tell you exactly how it feels. It is true that เจ้าของ means "owner", but the term is used to refer to girlfriend/wife as well, so it's not a one-way thing. This I believe dilutes the otherwise arcane connotation that the husband/lover is the "owner" his wife/lover.

To put things in perspective, the word for husband in Thai สามี (which has its root in Sanskrit 'swamin') means not only husband, but "master," "owner," "lord". But then again, most Thai women, I suspect don't think of its meaning when using it to call their husbands (many of them don't know it - just think it only means 'husband'). I myself use the term สามี when referring to my husband in Thai because the alternative (a more authentic Thai word) ผัว is considered impolite (while เมีย is much less so - much to discuss there).

So, when Thai women tease each other, e.g. one just got a boyfriend, fiance or husband, that she มีเจ้าของแล้วนะ. In this sense, it means more like "she's no longer available" (not that she now "has an owner" - though that's what it means literally). I suspect the feeling would be more of one of happiness mixed with a little pride (if the "เจ้าของ" is the one a woman is happy with).

[SoftWater]

This is a great thread, kaewmala, very informative. Thanks for starting it and for joining the community - native speakers are a rare and precious thing on Thaivisa.

I'm not a big follower of blogs, but I'll certainly be buying a copy of your book if its as useful as your posts on here.

Thanks again, and I hope you stick around.

Best

Sw

[Tod Daniels]

I was curious about what a Thai woman is feeling when she refers to her husband or partner as her เจ้าของ. I have heard it in both Thai songs and in daily conversation.

JJ.

I believe at least as evidenced by the first set of lyrics in this song; เก็บดาวมาให้เธอ : เสก โลโซ it is more along the lines of "my heart is owned completely", (as in he is the owner of my heart).

Again with so much song being figurative and carrying felt meaning much more than actual, it is tough to say. Although I've never heard thai women refer to their husbands in that term.

In other news; I did the see a thai couple who'd been married 40+ years and the woman said about her husband when he went out to drink with his friends, แก่ง่าย,ตายยาก. While it was said with clear affection in her eyes for her significant other, the literal meaning is quite different.

It also looks like we have another thai language pundit in the form of the poster known as "farangnahrak", and his trusty talking dictionary and handy thai language resource, "his gurl".. Evn though some of his sentence constructs look like the mangled <deleted> Google translates spits out. Please bear in mind simply getting a thai to understand you and speaking ANYTHING resembling coherent properly structured thai are horses of a different color.

Anyway, welcome to the T/V forum kaewmala, interesting blog too.

[anchan42]

This term is used equally by men and women. I heard this argument between two women in a market.

มึงมายุ่งกับผัวกูทำไม ไม่รู้รึไงมันมีเจ้าของแล้ว ของของกูใครอย่ามายุ่ง

It drew quite a big crowd.

I was curious about what a Thai woman is feeling when she refers to her husband or partner as her เจ้าของ. I have heard it in both Thai songs and in daily conversation.

Obviously from a Western perspective it would not be understood or accepted, I was just wondering what a Thai lady was feeling emotionally when making such a statement. Is there a sense that she is the property of her husband or more that the husband is her lifelong protector, guardian?

JJ.

[kaewmala]

Staying on the ผัวๆเมียๆ track... and เจ้าของ. Even in the old days, there were some Thai women who did not want to belong to any body.

In the spirit of the International Women's Day, I'll share with you an old poem written by an anonymous Thai female poet from a long, long time ago (not sure how long). I translated the poem for the book. It goes like this.

มีลูกกวนตัว มีผัวกวนใจ

จะอยู่เป็นสาว ให้หน้าขาวเป็นยองใย

ถึงจะแก่คาบ้าน ก็ไม่หนักกระบาลหัวใคร

Children disturb the body, husband disturbs the mind,

I will stay a pristine old maid, with my pretty face so bright it shines,

Manless to a ripe old age, it's no weight on anybody's head but mine.

cheers,

[SoftWater]

Staying on the ผัวๆเมียๆ track... and เจ้าของ. Even in the old days, there were some Thai women who did not want to belong to any body.

In the spirit of the International Women's Day, I'll share with you an old poem written by an anonymous Thai female poet from a long, long time ago (not sure how long). I translated the poem for the book. It goes like this.

มีลูกกวนตัว มีผัวกวนใจ

จะอยู่เป็นสาว ให้หน้าขาวเป็นยองใย

ถึงจะแก่คาบ้าน ก็ไม่หนักกระบาลหัวใคร

Children disturb the body, husband disturbs the mind,

I will stay a pristine old maid, with my pretty face so bright it shines,

Manless to a ripe old age, it's no weight on anybody's head but mine.

cheers,

Thanks for the reference. The first line of this has been a staple in our house since the kids hit speaking age...

When it's my turn to be grumpy with all and sundry, of course I change it to มีลูกกวนตัว มีเมียกวนใจ

I thought it was just a one-liner, but now see my substitution doesn't really hold for the rest of the poem!!