One For The Foreign Teachers...

[elkangorito]

I fear that you are correct Peace

Thai teaching methods only "backup" the existing hieracal situation...& the very few who have questioned this total travesty of educational freedom, are "free" as citizens.

Edited March 5, 2010 by elkangorito

[Scott]

I think it will change. Not quickly or easily, but it will have to change. The world is just a little too interconnected and many of the 'traditional' cultural practices just aren't relevant.

We now see 'latch-key' kids at our school. We see kids who spend large amounts of their time alone and as such they are what can best be stated as 'undersocialized'; at least by Thai standards. Their family is nuclear, not extended. Not only are they not particularly well behaved, but they don't seem to know how to act. They are connected to the internet, they have money. They are exposed to a world their parents didn't know--including drugs. Many are more attached to their friends than their families.

I am not talking about bad kids. I am talking about kids who are beginning to experience the same thing that many Western kids have. They are having to find their own way. That is counter to Thai traditional culture.

It's not wide widespread yet, but it's increasing.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's all about saving face. It predates the Chakri dynastry. It is the foundation of Thai culture. Face is more important than the wai. Face is more important than Thai education.

Then Thainess is doomed, but it will take decades to realize it.

[Sisaketmike]

'Recently had this very conversation with an adult student I am teaching English and another lady who said she was a Dr. in education here......Yet she didn't know what a CV was?'

Did she know the American word loaned from French, resumé? Do you?

Well, it's Latin-French

The original was curiculum vitae, right? Nero says hello

Résumé is old Latin and means summary.

[Sisaketmike]

You communicate in English. That is the language they are supposed to be learning.

Scott I disagree. Isn’t it useful if you understand some Thai? Example: A colleague was upset because the kids made a joke about another student and he went outside, thinking they made a joke out of him. Or explain to Prathom one kids what it means that it rains dogs and cats……………

[edgarfriendly]

essentially the system is flawed.

but doesnt everyone look swish in their shirts n ties n shoes etc...

i 'taught' in many establishments in and out of the capital city.

equally dismal,

regardless of status(govt/private)

# in country(somehow at least 8 bkk schools are all top 3 in the country.)

anyway, i bore myself.

teach on, teachers...

ef

[Scott]

Being able to understand or speak another language is a plus, however, no it's not better. I only speak English to my students. If you are teaching age appropriate material they will get it.

One of the problems in Thailand is that everything is translated into Thai. Students don't learn to think in English. Unless they have a functional knowledge of English why would you be teaching them "Rains cats and dogs"? If it came up in something I would simply explain, it means a lot of rain, heavy rain etc.

Young students sometimes speak to me in Thai. I answer them in English.

[Firelily]

Usually when there is an important point where I would like to make sure everyone understands, I ask the Thai assistant or one of the better students to say the word in Thai, and I nod. Children know I understand Thai and they think it is so funny when I catch them saying something inappropriate.

I do speak Thai in emergencies, e.g. when someone is doing something dangerous at the playground and I need to get them off those monkey bars etc. They do understand English but Thai always carries more weight and has a quicker effect for little kids.

[mark45y]

Being able to understand or speak another language is a plus, however, no it's not better. I only speak English to my students. If you are teaching age appropriate material they will get it.

One of the problems in Thailand is that everything is translated into Thai. Students don't learn to think in English. Unless they have a functional knowledge of English why would you be teaching them "Rains cats and dogs"? If it came up in something I would simply explain, it means a lot of rain, heavy rain etc.

Young students sometimes speak to me in Thai. I answer them in English.

A good friend of mine teaches English. He is Irish. I can barely understand him on the phone. In person it is a little easier but still difficult. Although compared to some people from Scotland his English is great.

I couldn’t imagine trying to grade students from classes taught by people with a heavy brogue.

I have talked to English teachers from the Philippines, India and Africa. They were also very difficult to understand. I couldn’t imagine what use grading their students would serve.

I have had Thai students ask me questions about English in Thai. They were sincere about wanting the information. Motivation is a large part of learning. I would imagine not speaking Thai to students would take away a lot of this motivation.

I took Thai courses at a university where the instructor spoke English and Thai. She had taught on a college level at the University of Minnesota for 20 years. She could have spoken only Thai but didn't.

Now that I speak basic Thai I can deal with only speaking Thai. I would have been lost speaking only Thai in the beginning. Now I am in an immersion Thai language course as my Thai partner speaks no English. Except on the internet, I speak almost no English on a daily basis.

Since Thailand will never have its own industry and will continue to rely of foreign companies to provide infrastructure and expertise it is critical Thais speak English.

Also, since Thais don’t read books, hardly anything is translated into Thai so any information necessary is going to be written in English and the internet will always communicate in English. Chinese is simply too complicated to ever really replace English for any of the sciences.

Would grading significantly impact learning English? I doubt it. More important would be English teachers who were bi lingual and willing to cooperate with Thai teachers and students to facilitate learning.

In a class of forty 11 year olds you will find 5 who speak rudimentary English or who have the ability to speak rudimentary English. I would suggest giving 35 students busy work and actually establishing a dialog with the 5 who have a chance to excel. You have to speak Thai to pull off this dual education process.

How do you do it? Simple really, the same way you eat a bear. One bite at a time. One school at a time one school district at a time. Find the big wheel and give one of his close subordinates the contract to provide English instructors for the school. That way the big wheel gets a piece of the action. Make sure those English teachers actually speak English and have them all on the same page instructing students who have a chance of success. Have plays, special projects and win all the local English contests. The program will catch on. Other students might even be attracted to learn a bit. Make if fun. Make it Thai. Speak some Thai.

When you have one district functioning find a crony in another district and start there. Use the Thai way. Payoffs and cronyism to effect positive change. Why beat your head against the wall trying to change Thais to Brits. Try instead to install a decent English speaking program using Brits who have been educated in how to make progress using the Thai system.

Edited March 9, 2010 by mark45y

[PeaceBlondie]

85% of Thais who already teach English, teach without understanding it, mostly in Thai. There aren't enough Thais who speak English, let alone co-teach with a native speaker. The Thai method of teaching English doesn't work.

[mark45y]

85% of Thais who already teach English, teach without understanding it, mostly in Thai. There aren't enough Thais who speak English, let alone co-teach with a native speaker. The Thai method of teaching English doesn't work.

I probably should have been clearer. I didn’t mean use the Thai method of teaching English. I meant the Thai method of getting things done. Using cronyism and payoffs as opposed to democratic or professional decision making.

To get anything done in Thailand an English teacher would have to speak Thai to the Thai teachers.

[wolf5370]

Getting back to the Ops original post, the college I just finished at has a intreaging way of ensuring students pass. There are two exams per term: A mid-term and a final. The mid-term carries 10% of the course grade, the final 20%. The rest is made up by attendence, presentation, reading, writing and drawing mind maps. Only 10% is for homework (the whole terms worth) and course work. So, being neat and drawing pretty pictures carries the same grade weight as the finals exam and course work put together!

On the English thing. I teach in English mostly. Sometimes difficult concepts I might give them a clue in Thai AND then go over it again with English. Sometimes a little Thai can save half an hour of lesson time and a whole lot of confusion, and I believe this is fine as long as English is the "taught in" language and Thai is just used for clarification. I also have students that ask me things in Thai. I usually translate it into English for them (model/drill) and get them to ask me again in English - then I answer in English.

I also tend to write new vocab in both English and Thai so they can copy it down and revise it later, but its the English that is modelled (they also help me with correcting my Thai spelling too!)

[elkangorito]

A strange phenomenon is happening at my work place...some teachers are departing from the M.E.'s (Ministry of Education) curriculum. They are actually teaching at a much slower pace. Unfortunately, it's still the "rote" method but at least it's a step in the right direction. All that needs to happen now is for each subject to be narrowed down to "appropriate" information only, so as to reduce academic overload.

Even though Thailand is upside-down compared to our countries, some things are very slowly changing. I expect the changes to quicken when more of the old farts (Thai) have departed this earthly plane.

Of course, I agree with Peace's saying about Thai teachers, "...but they all wear nice clothes & drive nice cars."

Thailand...land of appearances.

[edgarfriendly]

dont forget that the majority of 'schools' will NOT permit the foreign 'teachers' to utilise Thai language in class.

its almost forbidden, i have experienced this many many times.

regardless of a detailed explanation, the staff think they know best, end of discussion, or ur causing someone to 'imagine a loss of face'

being difficult out of pride or ignorance hampers the students ability to be educated. ITS NOT AN ACCIDENT.

i cant stands no more,

BUT i do like Mark45y's enthusiasm, mines been drained by parasites.

ef

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

3 pages at the time of writing, and this should not have gotten past the second poster, who, IMO, hit the nail bang on the head - the system is different, kids will continue to pass no matter what you do, and the sooner you swim with the tide the better you will be.

Of course, continue to help those who want to learn and accept the lower echelons of the group/class will simply never pick up English - and to be fair to them, they will very rarely need/use it in their chosen job/profession as a 7-11 clerk or whatever they shall do, so don't give them and yourself too hard a time if they can't understand when to use the present perfect or the simple past!)

It's the twilight zone guys and gals... accept it, love it and get over it.

[sarahsbloke]

Two weeks ago I bought a washing machine from Carrefour, none of the sales assistants could speak English, lucky I could speak and write the directions in Thai. When the washing machine was delivered the van driver phoned me up to say it was coming, I'm not very good understanding Thai so he instantly switched to very good English, I was impressed.

(Yes I can read write and speak Thai but have very big problems understanding spoken Thai, too fast, too many regional accents, and Thais just don't seem to get dumbing down the language when speaking to a foreigner)

So all is not lost.

[SoftWater]

A mini-theme running through this thread is whether English teachers should be bilingual, or at least have an understanding of the natural language of the students.

It's a complex issue, with no easy answer. However, a point worth mentioning: highly motivated learners do not want teachers speaking (usually poorly) in the students own language. On the other hand, if you are faced, as we all often are, with a class of mostly unmotivated and painfullly shy (or culturally conditioned not to speak up...whichever way you like it ) students, speaking a little Thai to them can be a great way to open them up.

First, it encourages them to ask you questions in Thai, which you can then use as a learning point by translating and answering in English; second, it provides a model to the students when they see a teacher who is also a successful (or not ) language learner.

I've often thought that nothing must seem more hypocritical to Thai students than those farang teachers that bang on about 'language learning' but who apparently cannot speak another language themselves.

Edited March 29, 2010 by SoftWater

[ThaiRich]

So the fact that I can speak my own language, English in addition to Spanish, Japanese, filipino and both American and International sign language, will make my Thai students have a burning desire to learn English or any foreign language? The point is moot. Whether I have studied a foreign language or not is just another excuse for them not to learn or listen. I can hear it now.

An interview in Thai language.

Q: So Somchai, I see that you have just graduated for the local university.

A: yes

Q: How many years have you studied English?

A: Including kindergarten and elementary school?

A: Yes Somchai, all years that you have spent studying English.

A: O.K. I understand. Umm.. 19 years total sir.

Q: So 19 years of studying English, it is safe to say you are very good at English?

A: No, I can't not speak or understand any spoken English more that fat, cat, money, I don't have. You see I can't speak English because my English teacher didn't know any foreign languages.

Who cares whether they think it is hypocritical or not? What if foreign languages were not required to graduate from my school. I also bang on about doing homework, being prepared for and on time to class. Yet, I was none of those things when I was a student, so I shouldn't bother with it?

Edited March 29, 2010 by ThaiRich

[SoftWater]

So the fact that I can speak my own language, English in addition to Spanish, Japanese, filipino and both American and International sign language, will make my Thai students have a burning desire to learn English or any foreign language? The point is moot. Whether I have studied a foreign language or not is just another excuse for them not to learn or listen. I can hear it now.

An interview in Thai language.

Q: So Somchai, I see that you have just graduated for the local university.

A: yes

Q: How many years have you studied English?

A: Including kindergarten and elementary school?

A: Yes Somchai, all years that you have spent studying English.

A: O.K. I understand. Umm.. 19 years total sir.

Q: So 19 years of studying English, it is safe to say you are very good at English?

A: No, I can't not speak or understand any spoken English more that fat, cat, money, I don't have. You see I can't speak English because my English teacher didn't know any foreign languages.

Who cares whether they think it is hypocritical or not? What if foreign languages were not required to graduate from my school. I also bang on about doing homework, being prepared for and on time to class. Yet, I was none of those things when I was a student, so I shouldn't bother with it?

So you keep 'banging on' about things in the classroom in the full knowledge even as you're doing it that its pointless, then you feel frustrated that students don't do it...that's what I'd call self-defeating behaviour, and not a little unimaginative.

There's no easy answer to someone who sounds as dis-spirited and dis-heartened as you (other than 'have you considered a career change?' ). I wasn't offering a solution - if you think there is a single solution to motivational issues in the classroom you really need to go and do some re-training - I was merely offering a perspective. Take it or leave it, but don't sound off at me because you despise your students.

Edited March 29, 2010 by SoftWater

[PeaceBlondie]

I speak, read, etc. English very fluently - better than 95% of Thais speak Thai. I speak Mexican Spanish. I don't speak ten words of Thai after taking lousy lessons in it. It's nearly impossible to learn. A working knowledge of Thai takes six months full-time to master, if you have good teachers. Forget becoming bilingual in Thai.

[sarahsbloke]

I speak, read, etc. English very fluently - better than 95% of Thais speak Thai. I speak Mexican Spanish. I don't speak ten words of Thai after taking lousy lessons in it. It's nearly impossible to learn. A working knowledge of Thai takes six months full-time to master, if you have good teachers. Forget becoming bilingual in Thai.

A very valid point from Peaceblondie

Learning Thai is very difficult because hardly anyone knows how to teach the language skills properly.

Learning to read and write Thai in places like AUA, YMCA, etc. involves much completely pointless rote learning, involving words you will never use and often chanting meaningless sounds. learning conversation always means transliteration, a process that actively stops you learning (and completely cuts you off from assistance by normal Thai people as they can't read or understand transliterated Thai).

The teachers are nearly always young females, creating huge problems for men in correctly learning tones.

Most of the teachers have no training in education at all, just some random degree.

If only a language school could recruit trained teachers and do proper lesson planning with valid objectives for each lesson learning Thai would become easier.

Edited March 29, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[SoftWater]

I speak, read, etc. English very fluently - better than 95% of Thais speak Thai. I speak Mexican Spanish. I don't speak ten words of Thai after taking lousy lessons in it. It's nearly impossible to learn. A working knowledge of Thai takes six months full-time to master, if you have good teachers. Forget becoming bilingual in Thai.

If it takes 6 months to be able to strum a tune on a guitar, and at least a couple of years to master it, is it "nearly impossible to learn" and everyone should "forget learning the guitar"?

[ThaiRich]

So the fact that I can speak my own language, English in addition to Spanish, Japanese, filipino and both American and International sign language, will make my Thai students have a burning desire to learn English or any foreign language? The point is moot. Whether I have studied a foreign language or not is just another excuse for them not to learn or listen. I can hear it now.

An interview in Thai language.

Q: So Somchai, I see that you have just graduated for the local university.

A: yes

Q: How many years have you studied English?

A: Including kindergarten and elementary school?

A: Yes Somchai, all years that you have spent studying English.

A: O.K. I understand. Umm.. 19 years total sir.

Q: So 19 years of studying English, it is safe to say you are very good at English?

A: No, I can't not speak or understand any spoken English more that fat, cat, money, I don't have. You see I can't speak English because my English teacher didn't know any foreign languages.

Who cares whether they think it is hypocritical or not? What if foreign languages were not required to graduate from my school. I also bang on about doing homework, being prepared for and on time to class. Yet, I was none of those things when I was a student, so I shouldn't bother with it?

So you keep 'banging on' about things in the classroom in the full knowledge even as you're doing it that its pointless, then you feel frustrated that students don't do it...that's what I'd call self-defeating behaviour, and not a little unimaginative.

There's no easy answer to someone who sounds as dis-spirited and dis-heartened as you (other than 'have you considered a career change?' ). I wasn't offering a solution - if you think there is a single solution to motivational issues in the classroom you really need to go and do some re-training - I was merely offering a perspective. Take it or leave it, but don't sound off at me because you despise your students.

Dude whatever are you talking about?????? I am not frustrated and I love my students I have been at the same school for 5 years. I have know most of my students since they were in kindergarten. MY POINT IS>>>> whether or not I can speak a foreign language or not has not bearing on the students learning or not learning. I have not said that banging on about doing homework ect is pointless. YOU SAID THAT> PLEASE READ MY POST~!! The entire point of my post is is does not/ should not make a difference if I can speak a foreign language or not. It is the students with bad study habits or avenues of excuses that usually don't learn what they are taught.

[SoftWater]

Point taken, thairich, which leads me back to my original point: I didn't say it was a crucial factor in their learning, I said it was a possible useful technique for teachers who need to break the wall of silence that we often encounter in a class of shy/unconfident students (you might take your own advice and re-read my post... )

Many Thai students are scared of speaking English, often, I have learned, because they don't want to look like 'show offs' in front of their classmates, and often because - like all of us who try to learn a new language - they fear the embarrassment of failure. Giving them the option to approach you in Thai and to use that as a way into building a raport and to encourage speaking English is a tactic I've used with success on a number of occassions, and all I was trying to do here was to share that idea.

Like I said, everyone is welcome to take it or leave it.

Edited March 29, 2010 by SoftWater

[Scott]

I am not sure where this topic is going. I am not sure it matters as long as we keep it from deteriorating.

I have taught a couple of adult classes for quite a number of years. Some students have joined and a few have left, but the core has remained intact. They all work together (factory) and I never believed they would get their heads around the language. How wrong I have been! They have gone from reading and re-reading the little conversations in "Interchange" to VOA special English. We've done stories, books, and lots of talking.

I've given them a great deal of say in what they want to do. The entire class is now able to give a 2 hour presentation. They first each had to chose a country in ASEAN and present about it. They compared the GDP, Population, area, industries etc with Thailand. They discussed the politics and importance of the countries. They asked questions; and answered questions.

They are now doing presentations on important people--they chose. We've heard about Mao Zedong, Princess Diana, and Bill Gates so far. They have to do a lot of research and have an excellent knowledge of their topic.

None of them has a 'reason' for taking English. They don't need it for work. They seem to enjoy and want to learn. We joke and we have a lot of fun. They speak almost entirely in English from the time they walk in the door until they leave.

My point is that people are going to learn at different rates and different skills are going to come at different times. Something can and will peek their interest and that is when the language develops. English is an outside world to many of the Thais and our job is to open the door to that world.

[SoftWater]

Yes, I've found that adult-ed classes where the cohort are co-workers tend to be more fun. I've taught a number of night classes both with students from the same workplace and other classes with 'strangers' who've enrolled on the same course. The former have always been more relaxed, less shy and more willing to experiment and have fun.

There's also a lot of research that suggests giving students a reasonable amount of choice in activities and some control over how they learn has beneficial results. For the majority of my work, undergraduate fixed-curriculum courses, that's not an option, but like Scott, I've seen first hand how it can work well when you do have that lee-way.

(agreed: we do seem to have strayed off-topic, apologies).

Edited March 29, 2010 by SoftWater

[elkangorito]

None of them has a 'reason' for taking English. They don't need it for work. They seem to enjoy and want to learn. We joke and we have a lot of fun. They speak almost entirely in English from the time they walk in the door until they leave.

I think this point is the most important.

I've had 'adult' classes in the past & they petered out rather quickly (after a couple of months). These classes were foisted upon the 'students' by their management. None of these people had a reason for learning English apart from the management saying 'you will learn English'. My overall feeling is that none of the students really wanted to learn English.

Some people simply say to themselves, "I think I know enough of this language to get by, so I really don't want to do any more learning about it."

In all honesty, I think that teaching English to the Thai populace could be a little more restricted. In other words, it is ok for it to be compulsory from K1 to the end of Pratom. In Matyom, students should be given the choice of whether or not they wish to continue learning English. In this way, only people who really want to learn it would do so, thus solving many problems for foreign teachers.

The only problem would be an initial reduced demand for foerign English teachers but I think the demand would grow again as soon as other Thais see that their countrymen are speaking the language adequately.

Notwithstanding the above paragraph, 'rote learning' needs to disappear...quickly.

[lost_in_space]

None of them has a 'reason' for taking English. They don't need it for work. They seem to enjoy and want to learn. We joke and we have a lot of fun. They speak almost entirely in English from the time they walk in the door until they leave.

I think this point is the most important.

I've had 'adult' classes in the past & they petered out rather quickly (after a couple of months). These classes were foisted upon the 'students' by their management. None of these people had a reason for learning English apart from the management saying 'you will learn English'. My overall feeling is that none of the students really wanted to learn English.

Some people simply say to themselves, "I think I know enough of this language to get by, so I really don't want to do any more learning about it."

In all honesty, I think that teaching English to the Thai populace could be a little more restricted. In other words, it is ok for it to be compulsory from K1 to the end of Pratom. In Matyom, students should be given the choice of whether or not they wish to continue learning English. In this way, only people who really want to learn it would do so, thus solving many problems for foreign teachers.

The only problem would be an initial reduced demand for foerign English teachers but I think the demand would grow again as soon as other Thais see that their countrymen are speaking the language adequately.

Notwithstanding the above paragraph, 'rote learning' needs to disappear...quickly.

I agree. They have intrinsic motivation, which beats extrinsic motivation every time. I can speak Mexican Spanish, like peaceblondie, and Brazilian Portuguese. I threw myself into them because I thought the cultures were cool, not because I thought I would benefit from it (although I did). Getting a reward for doing something actually decrease the likelihood of success, unless you're a Pavlov's dog.

[Scott]

What I have learned (so far) from this class:

1. It takes a lot of time.

2. There are many, many, many ways to motivate students.

3. You need to provide a positive and encouraging environment.

4. Different skills are learned at different levels and students learn at their own level.

5. Don't get frustrated and don't give up on students.

[phetaroi]

The OP said: "...Based on this I'm going to immortalise my thoughts on the craziness that is the Thai school system...I'm talking specifically about the guidelines issued by the ministry of education regarding pass/fail procedure and how it is to be implemented. In very simple terms - each and every student must pass regardless of ability or effort (and this is non negotiable.) The sooner that we (as falang teachers) realise this and start to tow the line, the easier our lives become because the stark reality is that we have absolutely zero ability to affect the system, and incidentally neither do the Thai's. I was in a meeting just the other day when the subject was brought up and was told by the director in no uncertain terms that it was out of her hands. All this begs the question: why bother testing students at all, if the result is always the same...?? I won't go into my views on the reasons for the above, however I would simply say I find it quite sad that a truly wonderful country such as Thailand (which promotes such moral values as respect and duty) can at the same time, display total disregard towards the potential of its younger generation (whose skills and intellect provide the basis for the future.)"

Two years ago, just as I was about to retire from the principalship in a school system in Virginia, this concept was being hotly (and I do mean hotly) discussed. The reason it's significant to mention here is that my school system was the 11th largest in the U.S., and one particularly noted for innovation and one that was often followed by other school systems. Even during interviews in Malaysia in the 1980s, the superintendent said, "Oh, you're from XXX. That's a great system!" Well, from my correspondence with my former teachers, I understand the what I'll call "no-fail system" had been put into place, although I don't know the details of exactly what has been adopted. Some of what was being discussed at the time of my departure was that no assignment or test would receive a grade of less than 50% -- even if the student got every question wrong or didn't do the work at all.

My point here is that it isn't just Thailand. This appears to be a growing trend. The reason I didn't mention the name of my former school system is simply that I don't know the details of what they're now doing, although I can find out if you wish.