One For The Foreign Teachers...

[phetaroi]

As far as I know, the "no fail system" is a Thai invention and it comes from the opinion that if a student fails it is because the teacher has failed in his job.

It's not unique to Thailand, although perhaps as a nation-wide implementation it is.

Your second point is interesting. I think a lot of teachers (and I include myself during my teaching years) do a great job teaching the average student, and average student will comply with classroom rules and assignments, and the like. Then there come the students who are different. I'm not talking about special education students...I'm talking with the "I don't care" students, for example. I always knew teachers who could get even some of the hard core students to accomplish more than any of the others teachers had. When NCLB hit America and we started being held responsible for our students not passing, guess what...we honestly raised the number of students passing by using varying techniques. Rarely is a student not-teachable. But it can be more of a challenge and much more time consuming.

To those who say, "if a student fails it is because the teacher has failed in his job," I would say a more accurate statement is, "if a student fails at least part of the failure belongs to the teacher." Is it a lack of ability to inspire students? Is it a limited "bag of tricks" where the teacher doesn't know more than one or two techniques to get a concept or factual information across to a student? Is it a teacher attitude of (and I have had many a teacher say this to me), "Well I taught it, they just didn't learn it."

I once had a math teacher on my staff who consistently had a failure rate of 20-30%. Thank god she wasn't my surgeon! Her failure rate was higher than any of the other 7 teachers in the department. We would often have to transfer students from her class to another teacher...and guess what...they started achieving at higher rates. Just as all students are not created equal, neither are all teachers (and yes, by the way, I realize neither are all principals).

[phetaroi]

I will be bold & brazen enough to say that I think it has EVERYTHING to do with that lovely word "culture".

Most Thai people I know do not want anything to change regarding Thailand. Afterall, most of them have absolutely no responsibility for anything after being subject to years of indoctrination.

The reason why I think that flyers, brochures etc are written in poor English is because of silly "pride". Somehow, many Thais seem to think that accepting & then using "good" advice from someone who is not Thai, is demeaning. This now brings up other demons like "nationalism" & zenophobia. Australia went through this phase yonks ago but thankfully, most of the old farts who think like this are gone or "on their way out".

In summation, the word "change" I think is pivotal to this whole discussion. Thais simply don't want this kind of change & if they do, it must be on their terms.

Just watch them bury their heads in the sand when you mention things like "bring in an international adjudicator to ensure democratic voting at elections" or "reduce the academic load on students to subjects specific to a particular career path". Of course, the "head burying" is normally accompanied with cries of "It must be done ONLY by Thais".

Now for the ultimate question.

Does Thailand really want to change or does it simply want to be "equivalent" to the rest of the world, without any effort, in terms of economy & a plethora of other things?

I believe that if Thailand can accept change with less resistance, it will move forward relatively quickly. I also believe that this must start on 2 fronts:

1] Democracy.

2] Education.

First, I'd like to say that you write very well...even though I often find myself disagreeing with you. But, you do make some excellent points.

I agree completely that it (like most things) has everything to do with culture. I think you're correct -- at least to a degree -- that most Thai people don't see the need (slightly different phrasing) for things to change in Thailand. I think there is a high degree of "I'm satisfied with the way things are" attitude here. And, that is their right as a nation. I disgree in your reference to "years of indoctrination". It's no more indoctrination here than it is in most countries. "...one nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". American indoctrination? Or a goal? "The American people are the most generous people in the world." Well, not in my opinion...but, indoctrination? I think Thais have a lot to be proud of, and a lot they need to attend to...but that's from my perspective...it doesn't seem to be to their perspective.

Your point about poor spelling and grammar in flyers. Fair point. But, in mentioning Australia...just how many languages other than English do you commonly see in flyers and brochures and ads in Australia?

You're absolutely correct when you say, "the word "change" I think is pivotal to this whole discussion. Thais simply don't want this kind of change & if they do, it must be on their terms." Well, it is their country...so I guess they have the right to change on their terms...as well as they are willing to accept the results.

When you say that, "Thailand can accept change with less resistance, it will move forward relatively quickly," I think it may be useful to look at this from two different perspectives. One is comparing it to the rest of the world today. I'm appalled, for example, at the quality of satellite television quality here (not programming...reception). I'm appalled by food cleanliness standards. I could go on. We all could.

But take things from a different perspective...not comparing it to elsewhere in the world today, but to the degree of change that has already occurred. I cam here in 1987. That seems so long ago, although it was just over 20 years ago. Let's see...just off the top of my head...a significantly improved national road system, Skytrain, subway, a huge new airport, satellite and cable television (when I first came here, broadcast television didn't even operate more than a few hours a day...from mid or late afternoon through something like midnight), electronic gadgetry so loved by young Thais, and so forth.

In my view, "behind" the Western world. But springing ahead in many ways at warp speed.

What I look at is the huge gap of quality of life between Bangkok and "the moo ban", or Sukhumvit and Klong Toey.

[PeaceBlondie]

phetaroj - culture in Thailand isn't about Bankok's Skytrain and subway. Education is stuck, decades in the past.

[Ijustwannateach]

Phetaroi:

I don't know how (or if) 'no fail' systems work anywhere else, but they certainly don't work here- imagine if you've inherited 2-3 students in a class who have consistently failed every subject 5-6 (or 9 or 10) years in a row and only been passed because they could not fail (not uncommon in most Thai classes- and in the poorer public Matthayoms there can be full classes of students like this). Even the 'best' teacher in the world is not going to be able to bring them up to speed over that kind of time gap.

I think the *real* reason for 'no fail' is because test scores were looking too low and the students and administrators didn't want to lose face. That coupled with an overly ambitious 'everything plus the kitchen sink' approach to curriculum which would look daunting on paper even in countries that were well-resourced. In certain subjects, until recent 're-engineering' of the national college entrance tests (twice in three years so far) the national averages were FAR less than 50%- testing their own students in their own language on their own curriculum! Certainly some teachers are also to blame somewhere along the way, but that students are allowed to proceed to college entrance in that state without any other checks and balances is pretty damning for the system.

[007]

learning conversation always means transliteration, a process that actively stops you learning (and completely cuts you off from assistance by normal Thai people as they can't read or understand transliterated Thai).

Besides, how many Thais speak "standard Thai" as you can find in a textbook? I know enough Thais, living in nearby provinces, who hardly understand each others Thai, cause the accents/dialects are very different. I also know a number of Thais who can hardly read Thai after six years of schooling. What's the point of learning "Bangkok Thai" when outside of Bangkok you are not understood, or you're not able to understand Esarn Lao or Southern Thai, etc.?

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

First, I'd like to say that you write very well...even though I often find myself disagreeing with you. But, you do make some excellent points.

Thanks Phetaroi . I haven't received such praise since my last 'year 10' essay.

I agree completely that it (like most things) has everything to do with culture. I think you're correct -- at least to a degree -- that most Thai people don't see the need (slightly different phrasing) for things to change in Thailand. I think there is a high degree of "I'm satisfied with the way things are" attitude here. And, that is their right as a nation. I disgree in your reference to "years of indoctrination". It's no more indoctrination here than it is in most countries. "...one nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". American indoctrination? Or a goal? "The American people are the most generous people in the world." Well, not in my opinion...but, indoctrination? I think Thais have a lot to be proud of, and a lot they need to attend to...but that's from my perspective...it doesn't seem to be to their perspective.

With regard to 'indoctrination', which I blame for most of Thailand's woes, it varies from country to country. I think that you imply this (it varies from country to country).

Not only does the 'level' of indoctrination vary but so does the type of indoctrination. Take Australia for example.

Australia is occupied by people from all over the world. As such & quite some time ago, the Australian government took it upon itself to remove many (not all) 'discriminating' inferences from formal Australian 'code'. Things like the 'National Anthem' is no longer required to be played at any non-government function (even some government functions do not play it). People can freely choose to NOT STAND for the National Anthem & not be criticised.

The term "god' is quite unilateral...it can mean any god.

Different languages are now spoken freely in public although the previous 'Howard' government (John Howard was deemed as being a 'Deputy Sheriff' by George W Bush) tried to re-employ a version of the old & nasty 'White Australia Policy'...& they succeeded, to the satisfaction of xenophobes. The result was a requirement to speak a 'higher' level of English than the before.

'Australianess' is not a part of any formal teaching doctrine, as 'Thainess' is in Thailand. Actually, there is no such thing as 'Australianess', although some xenophobic few may insist that there is such a thing. Religion is no longer a part of the public school curriculum. People are not influenced by the education system in this regard. This excludes private schools, where religion may form part of the curriculum.

My summation is that if any indoctrination exists in Australia, it does not come from a 'formalised source' (i.e. the government). In Thailand, there are publications for foreigners on 'how to behave' (I can send you such a document if you wish). I even went to one these ridiculous courses (2 days of rubbish...I had to go). At my place of work, students are told daily about how to behave etc via loudspeaker or at morning assembly. IMHO, 'Thainess' is not something that simply exists, it is pounded into the brains of the populace at every waking moment.

Your point about poor spelling and grammar in flyers. Fair point. But, in mentioning Australia...just how many languages other than English do you commonly see in flyers and brochures and ads in Australia?

To answer your question...many!!

Most people realise that more than one language is spoken in Australia. Most government departments, which are used by the public, have information brochures available in many languages. Interpreters are also readily available in most government departments (at no cost). Also, some restaurants (not many) have brochures in more than one language.

Australian xenophobes hate these facts.

You're absolutely correct when you say, "the word "change" I think is pivotal to this whole discussion. Thais simply don't want this kind of change & if they do, it must be on their terms." Well, it is their country...so I guess they have the right to change on their terms...as well as they are willing to accept the results.

My idea is that Thais are reluctant to accept the rest of the world. As much as I hate to say it, Thailand simply MUST KEEP UP with the rest of the world in order to economically survive. In this statement lies a choice...a clear choice.

On the other hand & personally, I'd prefer a more 'rural' Thailand but with far less emphasis on words like 'culture', 'Thainess', 'ethics', 'Buddhism' & 'unity'. To me, these words do nothing but segregate Thailand from the rest of the world. In case Thailand hasn't realsised, 'joining' the rest of the world does not necessarily mean agreeing with the rest of the world 100%. There are always choices but I think the FEAR of losing 'culture', 'Thainess', 'ethics', 'Buddhism' & 'unity' scares the crap out of them. It's such a shame they do not have faith in their chosen beliefs that they feel their 'ideals' will be eradicated by other influences.

It's about time Thai ideals fully withstood, on their own hind legs, the test of globalism (exposure to criticism).

When you say that, "Thailand can accept change with less resistance, it will move forward relatively quickly," I think it may be useful to look at this from two different perspectives. One is comparing it to the rest of the world today. I'm appalled, for example, at the quality of satellite television quality here (not programming...reception). I'm appalled by food cleanliness standards. I could go on. We all could.

This is where you & I part company.

I have never been in favour of consumerism in any country. As a matter of fact, the whole world would be a lot better off without exorbitant consumerism.

Unfortunately, many Thais 'lunge' at the many available consumer products. Methinks this has to do with a thing called 'class'. Don't get me wrong...'class' exists in many societies (if not every society). The difference appears to be (to me) that in Thailand, most people desperately want to reach this 'goalpost of affluence'. This is a contradiction in terms of my conceived notion of Thai indoctrination. The only reason I can think of why such a contradiction exists is due to things like 'loss of face', status & other such 'materialistic' & egotistical values. Perhaps Thailand had these horrendous values long before anybody else?

But take things from a different perspective...not comparing it to elsewhere in the world today, but to the degree of change that has already occurred. I cam here in 1987. That seems so long ago, although it was just over 20 years ago. Let's see...just off the top of my head...a significantly improved national road system, Skytrain, subway, a huge new airport, satellite and cable television (when I first came here, broadcast television didn't even operate more than a few hours a day...from mid or late afternoon through something like midnight), electronic gadgetry so loved by young Thais, and so forth.

In my view, "behind" the Western world. But springing ahead in many ways at warp speed.

What I look at is the huge gap of quality of life between Bangkok and "the moo ban", or Sukhumvit and Klong Toey.

When 'free thought' is truly able to occur in Thailand, you will see a totally different change.

Creating/modernising infrastructure does not require a change in Thai culture. On the other hand, a change in education policy WILL require a change in Thai culture...primarily less indoctrination, which will allow for more 'free thinking' (& more self responsibility).

[PeaceBlondie]

Excellent post, el kangorito. I agree.

Your summary:

"When 'free thought' is truly able to occur in Thailand, you will see a totally different change. Creating/modernising infrastructure does not require a change in Thai culture. On the other hand, a change in education policy WILL require a change in Thai culture...primarily less indoctrination, which will allow for more 'free thinking' (& more self responsibility)."

That change will destroy Thainess... hopefully.