Thaksin Asset Case: Bt46 Billion Will Be Seized Along With Interests

[brahmburgers]

If a bank robber gets convicted, he's probably liable to pay more than just the amount he stole from the bank.

Are you serious? Show me a bank robber that was convicted for stealing 1 million dollars and then ordered to pay back 2 million dollars, for example.

I didn't mention 2 million dollars or anything to do with double amounts.

Conceptually, perhaps you're right in regard to the average bank robber - though if they catch the robber with the stolen goods, they'll confiscate the valuables and, if he's found guilty, they'll put him in jail and/or exact a stiff fine. Perhaps a comparison to inside trading is more relevant to the Thaksin case. In any case, when a person of means is found guilty of stealing, that person will likely be fined - for more than the amount he stole.

[Somrak]

It was said that 76 billion were seized. Now 46 are to be retained. What happens to the remaining 30 billion? Are they to be returned to the man who took them from the thai people?

This question shows, that the laws, in cases like this, are may not strong enought.

But respect to the court.

[sangfroid]

The Headline I would like to see tmw ......

Government Announces 46 Billion Eductaion plan for rural Thailand

and make it work!

That headline TOMORROW in the news would be a very strong one !

Along with a commitment to ensure that more than 2 or 3 baht in the hundred would actually reach the classroom, as the education budget is now!!

[ballpoint]

If a bank robber gets convicted, he's probably liable to pay more than just the amount he stole from the bank.

Are you serious? Show me a bank robber that was convicted for stealing 1 million dollars and then ordered to pay back 2 million dollars, for example.

So you believe the penalty for robbing a bank should be to just pay back the stolen money? No wonder you're a member of the Thaksin crooked fan club.

[Old Man River]

If a bank robber gets convicted, he's probably liable to pay more than just the amount he stole from the bank.

Are you serious? Show me a bank robber that was convicted for stealing 1 million dollars and then ordered to pay back 2 million dollars, for example.

So you believe the penalty for robbing a bank should be to just pay back the stolen money? No wonder you're a member of the Thaksin crooked fan club.

Actually I have seen this in other countries. Sometimes there are jail sentences involved, but often times the financial penalties are waived when the funds stolen cannot be located. Here hey can, but deals are not out of the ordinary re time to be served. Don't get confused with what the actual law says or the actual decision with how things end up. It is often surprising.

[easybullet3]

what happens to the 46 billion baht that they retain?

where does it go?

seriously,, where does it go? who gets it?

is there details of where it all ends up?

[webfact]

Thaksin verdict no magic pill for Thai rifts: analysts - Analysis

by Claire Truscott

BANGKOK: -- (AFP) - A Thai court verdict on deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra's wealth is a compromise that could ease immediate tensions but will not heal the country's deep social rifts on its own, analysts say.

The Supreme Court seized 60 percent of Thaksin's frozen 2.3-billion-dollar fortune on Friday for abuse of power -- a lower-than-expected figure amid fears of unrest after what the local media had dubbed "judgement day".

Thaksin reacted with predictable anger, but analysts said that returning a chunk of his cash was a clear bid to mollify the fugitive tycoon's supporters, who plan to hold mass rallies in Bangkok next month.

"It adds some breathing space to what could have been a volcanic eruption," Paul Chambers, a senior research fellow in Thai politics at Germany's Heidelberg University, told AFP.

The verdict could be taken as a partial victory by either side in the bitter political feud that has divided the country since Thaksin was ousted in a military coup in 2006, Chambers said.

"Neither side in Thailand's conflict can be said to have totally lost and the game thus continues," said Chambers.

Supporters of Thaksin -- known as "Red Shirts" for the colour they wear -- first rallied in reaction to a rival campaign by royalist "Yellow Shirts" that targeted his allies then in government in 2008.

Earlier protests by the yellow-clad group against Thaksin's alleged graft precipitated the coup and, according to the Red Shirts, ended the last period of real democracy in Thailand.

With Friday's verdict essentially justifying the putsch as necessary to oust a corrupt leader, Thaksin's supporters are even more convinced of a conspiracy between the military, bureaucratic and palace elites.

"The verdict may boost the Reds," said Arnaud Leveau, a Thailand expert at the Bangkok-based Research Institute on Contemporary Southeast Asia.

"What they hear in the verdict is that you can be above the law, organise a coup and then ask the court to say that the coup was legal."

The Red Shirts say they will gather in Bangkok from March 12 and remain until the government falls, echoing statements made last April when they shut down an Asian summit and rioted in Bangkok.

The current prime minister, Oxford-educated Abhisit Vejjajiva, now heads a fragile six-party coalition government that only stays in power with the army's backing, deepening the Reds' sense of disenfranchisement.

Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a political analyst at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University, said the verdict must be followed by concessions from Thailand's elite in order to end the political turmoil.

"Not taking everything (from Thaksin) is a step in the direction towards a way out of this mess," said Thitinan.

"Will it be enough for the Red Shirts? No, because they are not just focused on Thaksin, they're focused on the double standards," he said.

"It's a condition that can be built and broadened into a reconciliation process, but it will require concessions and accommodation from both sides, especially from the establishment."

Analysts said Thaksin would be waiting in the wings for a comeback, with Thailand's political stage still turbulent and the revered king, a stabilising force during six decades on the throne, in hospital for the last five months.

Thaksin has been inciting his fans from his base in Dubai, where he is living to avoid a two-year jail term for corruption at home.

"This ruling in no sense means that Thaksin is licked," said Chambers.

"With an enormous mass following, sufficient funds, no political competitors able to match his charisma and the current reign winding down, Thaksin remains in a perfect position to vie for power -- but he must wait."

-- ©Copyright AFP 2010-02-28

Published with written approval from AFP.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[jayboy]

Another fatuous and completely predictable contribution from a foreign journalist, in this case one based in Hong Kong whose experience seems largely restricted to Hong Kong and Jakarta. Looking through a glass darkly while applying the filters of western cultural canons is not the most reliable way to inform one's readership. I'd give more credence to the views of Thaivisa.com posters who actually live here, talk to the people and see what's going on around them, but that makes it all too complicated, doesn't it - not suited to an editor's demand for a quick and compact response.

Once again we have an unsubstantiated and vitriolic attack on a foreign journalist.I suppose we should at least give thanks there is no puerile suggestion the BBC commentator concerned is in Thaksin's pay which is the usual stance from this kind of poster.What I suppose has prompted this attack is the following extract, stating no more than what is obvious, from the analysis

"What this verdict will not do is heal the divisions in this country, polarised by Mr Thaksin's hugely popular appeal and the threat this poses to the military-bureaucratic elite. The 2006 coup that deposed him continues to damage the legitimacy of the current military-backed government of Abhisit Vejajjiva - this basic issue also goes well beyond one man and his money."

Personally I would give a great deal of credence to this kind of calm and coherent summary.The BBC is diversifying its sources now with a recent piece by the excellent Shawn Crispin, who if anything is sympathetic to the current controlling power groups.

Some like the poster prefer Chang fuelled "discussions" in the visa running community, not exactly famous for its sophistication and intellectual coherence.Chaque a son gout, but a polite suggestion would be to consider exactly who is 'fatuous and predictable".

[anotherpeter]

I would like someone to explain to me how it is NOT corruption to change laws and contracts while being prime minister to benefit a company that one owns (or controls) billions of dollars worth of shares.

[Publicus]

This is basically a 50-50 political decision even though the actual money percentages are closer to 60-40 against Thaksin.

The AEC, established by the coup government, was recognized as legitimate by the Supreme Court as the Thai electorate did vote to approve the new constitution which absolved the coup leaders. The constitution does exist, was voted on and and further discussion of it is moot, if not beating the proverbial dead horse.

Thaksin's position is considerably weakened as the court delivered a judgement (juries deliver verdicts) which indeed is politically ha sib, ha sib. Thaksin already had lost much of of his steam and legitimacy as red rally after red rally has been called off for lack of interest. The analyist is correct that Thaksin has to wait. The trouble is the longer Thaksin waits the more irrelevant he becomes to Thais, and Thaksin knows this. Hence his contemptuous criticisms of the court's judgement despite the reality that most people domestically and abroad think the court acted more than fairly and certainly with a balanced sense of justice.

It is a truly extraordinary case and ruling by a country's Supreme Court, but Thaksin and the Reds vs the Yellows and the ancien regime

is an extraordinary situation and circumnstance unique to Thailand.

Thaksin and the Reds have precious little in this ruling to bellyache about. Further attempts by them to bring down the government can only be seen as purely political for the sake of power and politics only. Thai elites must now turn to the future to consider how to heal the society and to bring socioeconomic fairness and justice to the peasant population which themselves now need to put Thaksin at arm's distance from them permanently if they are to have any hope of having their legitimate issues addressed by this or any future government.

[jayboy]

Thai elites must now turn to the future to consider how to heal the society and to bring socioeconomic fairness and justice to the peasant population which themselves now need to put Thaksin at arm's distance from them permanently if they are to have any hope of having their legitimate issues addressed by this or any future government.

As it is often famously said of bankers and their monster bonuses, they simply don't get it.The whole landscape has changed.The days when grateful peasants patiently waited for elites to bring benefits are long gone, and the reds played a leading part in this.The question now is whether greedy and corrupt elites can avoid the fate that their equivalents have achieved in other times and other cultures.The question is whether sensible Whigs like Abhisit can see things through or whether the working and lower middle class in Thailand will take matters into their own hands.For those who say the traditional Thai culture of deference will always see the elite holding an unfair share of political and economic power, dream on.

[Publicus]

Thai elites must now turn to the future to consider how to heal the society and to bring socioeconomic fairness and justice to the peasant population which themselves now need to put Thaksin at arm's distance from them permanently if they are to have any hope of having their legitimate issues addressed by this or any future government.

As it is often famously said of bankers and their monster bonuses, they simply don't get it.The whole landscape has changed.The days when grateful peasants patiently waited for elites to bring benefits are long gone, and the reds played a leading part in this.The question now is whether greedy and corrupt elites can avoid the fate that their equivalents have achieved in other times and other cultures.The question is whether sensible Whigs like Abhisit can see things through or whether the working and lower middle class in Thailand will take matters into their own hands.For those who say the traditional Thai culture of deference will always see the elite holding an unfair share of political and economic power, dream on.

I think a number of us can agree Thailand has begun to change in fundamental ways. The modern world in encroaching on the decrepit ancient ways at a pace some find alarming, others find not fast enuff. The court's judgement suggests there is a middle ground, which however is not in the purview of the courts to find -the court has done its job. At this point the people themselves must stake out the moderate and temperate middle ground along the same lines as the court has done in its role in society.

Abhisit has acquired quite the education as he's learned to walk the proverbial tightrope during his tenure. I'd rather have him at the helm than any of the Red leaders who know so much about the people that they will do anything in the name of the people....anything.

[rixalex]

So much liberal trotting out of this term "elite" really does get boring.

Conveniently vague and massively simplistic.

[jayboy]

I think a number of us can agree Thailand has begun to change in fundamental ways. The modern world in encroaching on the decrepit ancient ways at a pace some find alarming, others find not fast enuff. The court's judgement suggests there is a middle ground, which however is not in the purview of the courts to find -the court has done its job. At this point the people themselves must stake out the moderate and temperate middle ground along the same lines as the court has done in its role in society.

Abhisit has acquired quite the education as he's learned to walk the proverbial tightrope during his tenure. I'd rather have him at the helm than any of the Red leaders who know so much about the people that they will do anything in the name of the people....anything.

It would probably surprise you that I agree completely, and thought you expressed your points very well.

[Moonrakers]

So much liberal trotting out of this term "elite" really does get boring.

Conveniently vague and massively simplistic.

Yep.

It makes the whole thing sound like some conspiracy made up by a group of lunatics with a meth habit and previous history of mental instability. 

There might even be some sustenance to the theory but continuing like this is doing it's credibility no good whatsoever, they had might as well replace the word 'elite' with the words 'lizard people from another dimension'. At least it'll be more interesting that way.

[rixalex]

There might even be some sustenance to the theory but continuing like this is doing it's credibility no good whatsoever, they had might as well replace the word 'elite' with the words 'lizard people from another dimension'. At least it'll be more interesting that way.

In the case of the reds, they really should replace the word "elite" for the phrase "rich and powerful people who don't support Thaksin", because those are the people they are actually refering to.

[Publicus]

I think a number of us can agree Thailand has begun to change in fundamental ways. The modern world in encroaching on the decrepit ancient ways at a pace some find alarming, others find not fast enuff. The court's judgement suggests there is a middle ground, which however is not in the purview of the courts to find -the court has done its job. At this point the people themselves must stake out the moderate and temperate middle ground along the same lines as the court has done in its role in society.

Abhisit has acquired quite the education as he's learned to walk the proverbial tightrope during his tenure. I'd rather have him at the helm than any of the Red leaders who know so much about the people that they will do anything in the name of the people....anything.

It would probably surprise you that I agree completely, and thought you expressed your points very well.

I thought I'd surprise you by stating my agreement with your basic thrust in respect to Thai culture and tradition and by stating my points very well.

I'd simply reiterate, seriously, that a number of us can agree (and often do agree) on certain fundamental points. Thaksin himself is the wedge issue. (And posting style.)

[jdinasia]

So much liberal trotting out of this term "elite" really does get boring.

Conveniently vague and massively simplistic.

And now apparently "elite" includes the middle class taxpayers....

We all know how the people who actually pay taxes tend to feel about "distribution of wealth" when it comes out of the class that pays the majority of taxes.

"Elite" is the most abused word on this forum in my opinion. Conspiracy theorists trot it out at the drop of the proverbial tin-hat. Then never can define the word to their own or anyone else's satisfaction. They talk about the "people vs. the elite" and then duck and run when someone points out that the leaders of the "people's" movement are all elite.

Thaksin's theft and the tax-bill that will come with it (that IS what this thread is about) would certainly pay for a nice chunk of education for the poor in Thailand. If they find a way to fine him for what the court stated his actions cost Thailand --- AND find a way to collect it from him that will certainly do even more for the poor!

[mca]

It would also be beneficial to a discussion if it could be admitted that an huge number of TRT/PPP voters voted as they saw fit and received no payment for their vote and by sympathizing with Thaksin doesn't mean they're lighting up a molotov.

[jdinasia]

It would also be beneficial to a discussion if it could be admitted that an huge number of TRT/PPP voters voted as they saw fit and received no payment for their vote and by sympathizing with Thaksin doesn't mean they're lighting up a molotov.

I would agree to a statement that many people that voted for Thaksin received no payment

There is a huge issue in how people vote here. It really does need to be One Man One Vote and not One Man 4 votes.

[Xangsamhua]

Some like the poster prefer Chang fuelled "discussions" in the visa running community, not exactly famous for its sophistication and intellectual coherence.Chaque a son gout, but a polite suggestion would be to consider exactly who is 'fatuous and predictable".

Jayboy, surely you're not suggesting that, as a poster on Thaivisa.com, you're a Chang-fuelled member of the visa running community. That's the other guys, isn't it? The ones that don't always see things the way you do. Actually, I've always thought your posts are quite well-informed, however fuelled. Your biases just differ from mine (and those of quite a few others - all Chang-fuelled visa runners?)

Anyway, enough of this ad hominem stuff. Journos have a job to do and some of them are quite good, I suppose. The main concern I have is when overseas journalists are cited by people on this forum as though, apparently by virtue of being Western journalists, their write-ups are seen as the most credible. However, I haven't found them so - rather the opposite, but that's just my view FWIW.

PS I seldom drink, and never Chang.

[RegularReader]

So much liberal trotting out of this term "elite" really does get boring.

Conveniently vague and massively simplistic.

And now apparently "elite" includes the middle class taxpayers....

We all know how the people who actually pay taxes tend to feel about "distribution of wealth" when it comes out of the class that pays the majority of taxes.

"Elite" is the most abused word on this forum in my opinion. Conspiracy theorists trot it out at the drop of the proverbial tin-hat. Then never can define the word to their own or anyone else's satisfaction. They talk about the "people vs. the elite" and then duck and run when someone points out that the leaders of the "people's" movement are all elite.

Thaksin's theft and the tax-bill that will come with it (that IS what this thread is about) would certainly pay for a nice chunk of education for the poor in Thailand. If they find a way to fine him for what the court stated his actions cost Thailand --- AND find a way to collect it from him that will certainly do even more for the poor!

JD, it's not just on the TV board that "elite" is used in such a way. If you visit the more "academic" / "intellectual (haha) blogs etc., they all go on about the "elite", as if those who are of the "stratisfied realms" of the Thai power game, that "elites" are only on one side.

They all seem to conveniently forget that Thaksin contructed his own lot of "elites" and was in the middle of conning a large section of the Thai population, to transfer their alligiances from one group of "elites", to his group of "elites", in order for him to "rule" over them, instead.

That these people in the main, constitute a large number of the Red/UDD supporters, shows that there is a long way to go, before Thailand is rid of the patronage system type of "rule".

[way2muchcoffee]

I'm getting all teary. So much love and acceptance in these last last few posts.

[Moonrakers]

So if a member of the 'elite' votes FOR Thaksin, does that mean that they are still 'elite' or do they forfeit that title?

[jayboy]

Some like the poster prefer Chang fuelled "discussions" in the visa running community, not exactly famous for its sophistication and intellectual coherence.Chaque a son gout, but a polite suggestion would be to consider exactly who is 'fatuous and predictable".

Jayboy, surely you're not suggesting that, as a poster on Thaivisa.com, you're a Chang-fuelled member of the visa running community. That's the other guys, isn't it? The ones that don't always see things the way you do. Actually, I've always thought your posts are quite well-informed, however fuelled. Your biases just differ from mine (and those of quite a few others - all Chang-fuelled visa runners?)

Anyway, enough of this ad hominem stuff. Journos have a job to do and some of them are quite good, I suppose. The main concern I have is when overseas journalists are cited by people on this forum as though, apparently by virtue of being Western journalists, their write-ups are seen as the most credible. However, I haven't found them so - rather the opposite, but that's just my view FWIW.

PS I seldom drink, and never Chang.

The Chang jibe was out of order and I apologise.However let's be honest enough to admit the general tenor of debate is generally not that elevated and that reflects the nature of the expatriate community in Thailand (somewhat low rent as Peter Mandelson might say):obviously I'm generalising.

As you say leaving ad hominem stuff aside, which correspondents do you find thought provoking and knowledgeable? Of the locally based ones I enjoy Shawn Crispin though not always agreeing with him.Isn't that the point though? One reads not to find journalists who reinforce one's existing prejudices but for insights that make one think, My God maybe I've got this aspect all wrong.Same goes for forum members.I enjoy having my existing views challenged and tested.

[RegularReader]

So if a member of the 'elite' votes FOR Thaksin, does that mean that they are still 'elite' or do they forfeit that title?

Very droll.

I would say, they changed their elite "loyalty" - as many did, in the early part of the noughties - until they found out, the other elites were "paying more"...as that famous Thai expression goes "same same, only different"

Edited February 28, 2010 by RegularReader

[Publicus]

So if a member of the 'elite' votes FOR Thaksin, does that mean that they are still 'elite' or do they forfeit that title?

Forfeit indeed!

'Cause if you vote FOR Thaksin you're a peasant - by definition!

No respectable member of an 'elite' would be caught dead voting for Thaksin!

If they voted for Thaksin then they wouldn't be among the Elites, would they?!?

It's in the unwritten rules......look 'em up.

[RegularReader]

So if a member of the 'elite' votes FOR Thaksin, does that mean that they are still 'elite' or do they forfeit that title?

Forfeit indeed!

'Cause if you vote FOR Thaksin you're a peasant - by definition!

No respectable member of an 'elite' would be caught dead voting for Thaksin!

If they voted for Thaksin then they wouldn't be among the Elites, would they?!?

It's in the unwritten rules......look 'em up.

Here we go again!

You're just perpetuating the belief that there is on only, ONE set of "elites" in Thailand.

[Publicus]

So if a member of the 'elite' votes FOR Thaksin, does that mean that they are still 'elite' or do they forfeit that title?

Forfeit indeed!

'Cause if you vote FOR Thaksin you're a peasant - by definition!

No respectable member of an 'elite' would be caught dead voting for Thaksin!

If they voted for Thaksin then they wouldn't be among the Elites, would they?!?

It's in the unwritten rules......look 'em up.

Here we go again!

You're just perpetuating the belief that there is on only, ONE set of "elites" in Thailand.

Err, ahh, are we back to being serious again?

Yes, the word 'elite' is grossly overused and terribly abused. Sort of like 'terrorist'.

I take it with a grain of salt.

[Moonrakers]

So if a member of the 'elite' votes FOR Thaksin, does that mean that they are still 'elite' or do they forfeit that title?

Forfeit indeed!

'Cause if you vote FOR Thaksin you're a peasant - by definition!

No respectable member of an 'elite' would be caught dead voting for Thaksin!

If they voted for Thaksin then they wouldn't be among the Elites, would they?!?

It's in the unwritten rules......look 'em up.

And so, what about a peasant that votes for the Dem's. 

Maybe voting for the Dem's leads them one step closer to becoming 'elite' and so therefore voting for Mark in the next election will improve their lives! 

Edited February 28, 2010 by Moonrakers