Lobby Group Foreigners In Thailand

[chownah]

I couldn't agree with this more (LaoPo's post). Asia and especially China is growing faster than people realise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My post here is an immitation of other posts I"ve seen:

------------------------

You are saying that China is growing faster than EVERYONE realizes? Here we go again....sweeping generalizations. Taking a few cases and trying to say that everyone is that way. DISGUSTING!!!! China is not growing faster than I realise!! In fact China is growing slower than I realise because I realise that it is growing twice as fast as it really is!!!!!

I'm sick and tired of these air headed generalizations trying to paint everyone with the same brush. It makes me sick and I think you should stop bashing everyone. I don't consider this a flame...I'm just telling it like it is!!! NUFF SAID, DUM F

----------------------

Actually all I'm trying to say is that alot of people do realize how fast China is growing and they are becoming rich because of this realization.

Edited May 18, 2005 by chownah

[~G~]

In fact China is growing slower than I realise because I realise that it is growing twice as fast as it really is!!!!!

Do you realize that your realisation rate is twice as fast as the realized growth of the Chinese realization slow down?

Edited May 18, 2005 by ~G~

[chownah]

In fact China is growing slower than I realise because I realise that it is growing twice as fast as it really is!!!!!

Do you realize that your realisation rate is twice as fast as the realized growth of the Chinese realization slow down?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course I realized that YOU IDIOT!!!! WHAT THE....!!!

[TizMe]

mouse

sell the idea that Thailand has to gain rather than loose anything

taxexile

but what exactly DOES thailand have to gain from this ?

nobody has managed come up with one thing that thailand will gain from changing the rules.

i dont think this idea will ever get out of first gear i'm afraid.

You are assumming that Thai rules are changed for the good of Thailand..

I think that the correct question needs to be: "but what exactly DO thailand's polititions have to gain from this ?"

i dont think this idea will ever get out of first gear either i'm afraid.

Edited May 18, 2005 by TizMe

[Artisi]

Take example from the Chinese-Thais - they are virtually controlling Thailand's economy without any lobby group or any legistlation change. It did take them a few generations, I must admit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct, but take into consideration that the Chinese-Thai are:

Very clever, very intelligent and very hard working and have a very close and strong family- and community-life where they support each other, no matter what.

I wonder if that can be said about the Farangs, posting here?

LaoPo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't mention, realistic and patient. I will be more inclined to support a lobby for eaisier, quicker permanent residency and citizenship, thereby become intergarted in Thailand's society, enjoying all the benefits and duties that come with it, rather than demanding rights for "foreigners" as an alien group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am in full agreement with the above regarding the lobbying (read requesting) an easier, quicker, and an achieviable path to permanent residency and citizenship to show that we are part of the Thai society.

We are not in any position now or ever to demand anything - so forget it, concentrate and put your effort into achievable goals.

[taxexile]

show that we are part of the Thai society

i dont think that anyone who was not born here and has had most of their upbringing here will ever be a part of thai society.

we stand out like sore thumbs ,we look different ,we walk differently , we think differently , we react differently , our beliefs and values are different and whatever we may think and hope , and however much we may like it here , we dont easily fit in and very few will ever become a part of thai society.

this is not a multicultural inclusive society , we are just about tolerated by the authorities here , and in spite of all the smiles and all the food , thats about it.

the authorities are happy to see us off at don muang.

even children of thai couples who were born abroad feel like outsiders on their visits here.

the only way we can be a part of thai society and to understand and adopt the subtle nuances of thai society and interreaction is to born here.

our kids who have been born here and have grown up here are a part of thai society , but we are not.

we are very much on the outside and to try and lobby for more rights to own land is frankly dafter than pissing into the wind.

the authorities may ease the regulations in our favour in the future , but i doubt that it will be as a result of an albeit well intentioned but amateur lobby group

Edited May 18, 2005 by taxexile

[HarryHacker]

show that we are part of the Thai society

i dont think that anyone who was not born here and has had most of their upbringing here will ever be a part of thai society.

we stand out like sore thumbs ,we look different ,we walk differently , we think differently , we react differently , our beliefs and values are different and whatever we may think and hope , and however much we may like it here , we dont easily fit in and very few will ever become a part of thai society.

this is not a multicultural inclusive society , we are just about tolerated by the authorities here , and in spite of all the smiles and all the food , thats about it.

the authorities are happy to see us off at don muang.

even children of thai couples who were born abroad feel like outsiders on their visits here.

the only way we can be a part of thai society and to understand and adopt the subtle nuances of thai society and interreaction is to born here.

our kids who have been born here and have grown up here are a part of thai society , but we are not.

we are very much on the outside and to try and lobby for more rights to own land is frankly dafter than pissing into the wind.

the authorities may ease the regulations in our favour in the future , but i doubt that it will be as a result of an albeit well intentioned but amateur lobby group

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After reading my way through all of these posts I have to say you have summed this up very well.

We will always be out-siders and just about tolerated in this country. Regardless of the contribution one has made to Thailand, accept the fact that you will never be more than a guest.

On the simple question of having the right to own land I have to say No, if for no other reason than to keep the land prices as reasonable as possible for ordinary Thais.

On the idea of having a lobby group, again, in my view not the best idea to be written in a climate of global jingoism.

[boris]

show that we are part of the Thai society

i dont think that anyone who was not born here and has had most of their upbringing here will ever be a part of thai society.

we stand out like sore thumbs ,we look different ,we walk differently , we think differently , we react differently , our beliefs and values are different and whatever we may think and hope , and however much we may like it here , we dont easily fit in and very few will ever become a part of thai society.

this is not a multicultural inclusive society , we are just about tolerated by the authorities here , and in spite of all the smiles and all the food , thats about it.

the authorities are happy to see us off at don muang.

even children of thai couples who were born abroad feel like outsiders on their visits here.

the only way we can be a part of thai society and to understand and adopt the subtle nuances of thai society and interreaction is to born here.

our kids who have been born here and have grown up here are a part of thai society , but we are not.

we are very much on the outside and to try and lobby for more rights to own land is frankly dafter than pissing into the wind.

the authorities may ease the regulations in our favour in the future , but i doubt that it will be as a result of an albeit well intentioned but amateur lobby group

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After reading my way through all of these posts I have to say you have summed this up very well.

We will always be out-siders and just about tolerated in this country. Regardless of the contribution one has made to Thailand, accept the fact that you will never be more than a guest.

On the simple question of having the right to own land I have to say No, if for no other reason than to keep the land prices as reasonable as possible for ordinary Thais.

On the idea of having a lobby group, again, in my view not the best idea to be written in a climate of global jingoism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A reasonably sensible post but a piece of silliness in suggesting debarring foreigners from buying land keeps prices manageable for ordinary Thais.The speculative foreigners- mainly Chinese and Indians- buy land anyway.In practice the typical farang just wants to acquire a couple of rai for a house.

[sadman]

I agree with Artisi's post. My previous post (#100) was made in the same spirit - that those living permanently in LOS should be allowed to participate fully in its operation, whether that be land-owning, voting or whatever. And yes, if that includes military service, then so be it - it happens in other countries.

I don't yet live in LOS full-time, so I don't have the right to have a say in what goes on. As and when I do move permanently, it would be fair to allow me those rights.

I'm not comfortable with the strident, pro-lobbyist voices. I'd rather settle in, integrate and go down the quiet path to acceptance - no, I'll never be considered Thai (odd, really, as I'm 6'3", 18 stone and with ginger hair) but I can be accepted. That's down to me and the way I live.

As for those opting for a strong, united lobby - good luck, but as Sam Goldwyn said: "include me out".

[HarryHacker]

[

A reasonably sensible post but a piece of silliness in suggesting debarring foreigners from buying land keeps prices manageable for ordinary Thais.The speculative foreigners- mainly Chinese and Indians- buy land anyway.In practice the typical farang just wants to acquire a couple of rai for a house.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, therefore Boris, what you are saying is that if Farangs could buy land that the price of land would not increase?

That is &lt;deleted&gt; more than silly!

[boris]

[

A reasonably sensible post but a piece of silliness in suggesting debarring foreigners from buying land keeps prices manageable for ordinary Thais.The speculative foreigners- mainly Chinese and Indians- buy land anyway.In practice the typical farang just wants to acquire a couple of rai for a house.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, therefore Boris, what you are saying is that if Farangs could buy land that the price of land would not increase?

That is &lt;deleted&gt; more than silly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt from your use of language and syntax whether you have had much if any formal education, let alone in market economics.Nevertheless and in brief, the price of land is normally set by supply and demand.In the Thailand bubble economy of the early 1990's there was a massive increase in land prices.This partly was driven by economic growth and partly by speculation:the main protagonists were as might have been expected Sino-Thai business families.If farangs were allowed to acquire a small parcel of land (say max 3 rai) this would have an insignificant effect on land prices as it would be a tiny part of the overall trade in land.In any case I would have thought that farang money is acquiring land in Thailand anyway, albeit through proxies and without legal protection.

[gburns57au]

Any concession (3 rai or 1 rai) will be exploited by some people. That is human nature...

But lets not forget either that the biggest procurers of foreign land are Indians....Fiji is an example of that.....would you like to see Thailand taken over by Indians.

You can lobby for farang land rights all you want...but you guys seem to assume that this means Caucasian farangs....If you open the door for one foreigner to own land then you open the door for ALL foreigners to own land....That means Indians, Pakistanis, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Singaporean.....oh yeah and us Aussies, Brits and Yanks.

You guys that live there.....you do so at the invite of the Thai government and the Thai people.....dont abuse the invitation or it may be withdrawn.

[The_Moog]

Nevertheless and in brief, the price of land is normally set by supply and demand.

The real estate market is not particularly efficient in Thailand - compared, say, to Hong Kong.

Property prices are in many ways quite arbitrary and inelastic in Thailand. Post Economic Crisis, property prices were not marked down in parallel with the capitulation in other asset classes.

Not sure i'd want to spend half a million dollars (= 20 million Baht)- on a modest 3 bed house with no garden, in a 3rd World capital, even if I did have the unequivocal legal right.

Edited May 18, 2005 by The_Moog

[chownah]

But lets not forget either that the biggest procurers of foreign land are Indians....Fiji is an example of that.....would you like to see Thailand taken over by Indians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

gburns57au,

I think you have made a very racist comment here. I wouldn't want to see Thailand taken over by anyone.... Why have you singled out people from India. Do you find them to be disgusting or filthy or discourteous or something. Please confirm that your attitude is racist or else explain how you have made some mistake in your posting or where I am misinterpreting your statement.

Edited May 18, 2005 by chownah

[gburns57au]

But lets not forget either that the biggest procurers of foreign land are Indians....Fiji is an example of that.....would you like to see Thailand taken over by Indians.

gburns57au,

I think you have made a very racist comment here. I wouldn't want to see Thailand taken over by anyone.... Why have you singled out people from India. Do you find them to be disgusting or filthy or discourteous or something. Please confirm that your attitude is racist or else explain how you have made some mistake in your posting or where I am misinterpreting your statement.

To start...I am not racist against Indians....I have many friends here who are Indian but from different backgrounds.....Indian Fijian, Indian Maly, African Indian, Indian and Anglo Indian. All of these friends have said to me that the Indian race has spread further throughout the world than any other race and they are quite proud of the fact. I have worked as the only caucasian in a company here that was owned by Indians and employed mainly people from Indian backgrounds. Only the other day in the supermarket my African Indian friend (born in Kenya to Indian parents) proudly boasted about Bollywood ripping off Hollywood and called Indians a race of thieves.....and admitted that although tongue in cheek it was the truth.

But it is fact...that they have spread further throughout the world than any other individual race and as they have done thay have acquired land and property to the extent that they actually rule Fiji and have a strong political presence in a few other countries.

However you picked one thing from my post....an example and then a hypothetical point on the same example.....the point of my post in its entirety was to point out to the "yes" voters that by lobbying for land rights for themselves that they are also lobbying for land rights for all as I think I pointed out after....or am I, in your opinion, racist against Pakistanis, Russians etc... as well ???

[taxexile]

norris said

I doubt from your use of language and syntax whether you have had much if any formal education, let alone in market economics.

what on earth has that got to do with anything , you pompous arse.

[SEAtramp]

The Indian community in Thailand has a bigger foothold than any of the white farang population residing in Thailand.

But then again they have been there a lot longer

[boris]

norris said

I doubt from your use of language and syntax whether you have had much if any formal education, let alone in market economics.

what on earth has that got to do with anything , you pompous arse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what has got you so excited.Is this a sensitive subject for you?

Returning to the subject, land price issues in Thailand are relatively complicated.Therefore when it is obvious someone is half educated/ill informed, it's important to spell out the arguments clearly.

[chownah]

norris said

I doubt from your use of language and syntax whether you have had much if any formal education, let alone in market economics.

what on earth has that got to do with anything , you pompous arse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what has got you so excited.Is this a sensitive subject for you?

Returning to the subject, land price issues in Thailand are relatively complicated.Therefore when it is obvious someone is half educated/ill informed, it's important to spell out the arguments clearly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boris, Many people study things in their daily lives outside the realm of educational institutions. My interpretation of your post is that you are telling Harry Hacker that since he has no formal education in the matters being discussed that his opinions are not valid and that since you do have formal education in those matters you will inform him and us what the PROPER way to think about these things is. When people like me (who study things on their own) see people like you (who make comments which lead to my interpretation above) we think that people like you are intellectual snobs and lacking in real world experience. We think you are an intellectual snob because you think that the only place to learn is in a school and that learning outside school is of no consequence. We think you are lacking in real world experience because your personal experiences have not been broad enough for you to have experienced people without formal education who are as competent or even more competent than people with only formal education. Examples of these people without formal education in their fields of expertise but broadly thought to be exceptional are Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, and me.

And, by the way, I usually abhor the use of derogatory names in posts but I think that taxexile's use of 'pompous arse' to describe you is befittiing....unless in someway I have totally misunderstood your post...something I often do.

Edited May 19, 2005 by chownah

[dr_Pat_Pong]

[boris]

norris said

I doubt from your use of language and syntax whether you have had much if any formal education, let alone in market economics.

what on earth has that got to do with anything , you pompous arse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what has got you so excited.Is this a sensitive subject for you?

Returning to the subject, land price issues in Thailand are relatively complicated.Therefore when it is obvious someone is half educated/ill informed, it's important to spell out the arguments clearly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boris, Many people study things in their daily lives outside the realm of educational institutions. My interpretation of your post is that you are telling Harry Hacker that since he has no formal education in the matters being discussed that his opinions are not valid and that since you do have formal education in those matters you will inform him and us what the PROPER way to think about these things is. When people like me (who study things on their own) see people like you (who make comments which lead to my interpretation above) we think that people like you are intellectual snobs and lacking in real world experience. We think you are an intellectual snob because you think that the only place to learn is in a school and that learning outside school is of no consequence. We think you are lacking in real world experience because your personal experiences have not been broad enough for you to have experienced people without formal education who are as competent or even more competent than people with only formal education. Examples of these people without formal education in their fields of expertise but broadly thought to be exceptional are Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, and me.

And, by the way, I usually abhor the use of derogatory names in posts but I think that taxexile's use of 'pompous arse' to describe you is befittiing....unless in someway I have totally misunderstood your post...something I often do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A post like yours is relatively rare -measured,well expressed and points well made.First of all I must admit to a degree of knockabout banter since, among other things on this forum, we are attempting with varying degrees of success to amuse other people and ourselves.Returning to your main point I do not in fact confuse education, intelligence and achievement which are three different though sometimes related things.Where I might slightly disagree with you is the assumption you make that education consists of acquiring expertise for use in life.Up to a point this is true but the main purpose is to train the mind and encourage clear thinking.

[~G~]

Of course I realized that YOU IDIOT!!!! WHAT THE....!!!

And, by the way, I usually abhor the use of derogatory names in posts but I think that taxexile's use of 'pompous arse' to describe you  is befittiing....unless in someway I have totally misunderstood your post...something I often do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited May 19, 2005 by ~G~

[~G~]

... Examples of these people without formal education in their fields of expertise but broadly thought to be exceptional are Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, and me.

And, by the way, I usually abhor the use of derogatory names in posts but I think that taxexile's use of 'pompous arse' to describe you  is befittiing....unless in someway I have totally misunderstood your post...something I often do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Playing in the big league...

Edited May 19, 2005 by ~G~

[HarryHacker]

All I did was put out the bait for Boris and just like that cartoon mouse he came for the cheese.

[chownah]

... Examples of these people without formal education in their fields of expertise but broadly thought to be exceptional are Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, and me.

And, by the way, I usually abhor the use of derogatory names in posts but I think that taxexile's use of 'pompous arse' to describe you  is befittiing....unless in someway I have totally misunderstood your post...something I often do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Playing in the big league...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I forgot to say that I listed these in ascending order of greatness...that's me...just above Einstein.

[peder.klockmann]

To all whom are willing to discuss this further:

I had promised George that I wouldn't talk more about this subject on Thaivisa.com as to not jeprodise thier current standings.

In lieu of this I have created a temporary online board that we can further discuss our options of where and how we will continue to persue this, if in fact we decide to do so. I have put this on a site that I already had up and running for a while. I currently have about 4.5 gigs of space left on there.

Whenever we decide on an Organizations name and a URL, all the current *temporary* boards information will be seamlessly migrated over.

The URL for the tempory lobby board is here.

This discussion tread is free to be if so desired.

[samran]

I had promised George that I wouldn't talk more about this subject on Thaivisa.com as to not jeprodise thier current standings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Serious question...

How is this discussion detrimental to Thai Visa? It was a fairly intelligent discussion as far as TV goes, though in my opinion a bit misguided in terms of implementbility. Why close it?

Cheers

Samran

[peder.klockmann]

Serious question...

How is this discussion detrimental to Thai Visa? It was a fairly intelligent discussion as far as TV goes, though in my opinion a bit misguided in terms of implementbility. Why close it?

Cheers

Samran

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Serious answer... filled with rhetorical questions.

Why can't you respect the mans wishes? (remember, they are rhetorical)

Imagine TV as an ampartment complex, George is the landlord. Would you disobay the rules of your landlord has given for you? Would you blast your stero so loud that it bother most of the other occupants in the middle of the night? If you don't respect the landlords wishes of the complex can't you be evicted?

Peace,

Peder

[samran]

Serious question...

How is this discussion detrimental to Thai Visa? It was a fairly intelligent discussion as far as TV goes, though in my opinion a bit misguided in terms of implementbility. Why close it?

Cheers

Samran

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Serious answer... filled with rhetorical questions.

Why can't you respect the mans wishes? (remember, they are rhetorical)

Imagine TV as an ampartment complex, George is the landlord. Would you disobay the rules of your landlord has given for you? Would you blast your stero so loud that it bother most of the other occupants in the middle of the night? If you don't respect the landlords wishes of the complex can't you be evicted?

Peace,

Peder

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few points of order:

Firstly, I don't think any of us are privy to private conversations between you and george, so unless it has come from the horses mouth I don't tend to believe it. I still maintain this has been one of the more useful conversations had recently, and from a policy perspective, it's great stuff. From a political perspective, well thats another question.

Secondly, nothing that has occured in this thread up until this point could be interpreted as being detrimental to Thai Visa or its rules.

Third, you didn't start this thread, so unless my understanding of the rules are off, only the person who can request a closure is the orginal poster. Who is this thread disturbing? Thai politicians and the Thai people? If you think that this thread will then you still don't know Thailand very well.

Fourth, and perhaps a bit more personally, don't try the condesending post. You arent very good at them (I mean whats this 'landlord' sh!te??!!??. Had a few too many Changs? )

If you are going to look down on people take a few lessons from Boris, at least he's good at it.....

[peder.klockmann]

There wasn't a private conversation regaurding this.

Please use the forum provided above.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34453

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34469