Spelling Out Vocalic Symbols

[aitch]

Hello,

1 - When you spell out a simple vowel, always spell it out as it appears when written ? e.g. แล would be spelled out as 'สระ แ, ล ลิง' ?

2 - When you spell out a complex vowel, always spell it out after the consonant ? e.g. เดา would be spelled out as 'ด เด็ก, สระ เ-า' ?

Also:

1 - When you spell out a tonal marker, the order would always be (1) the consonant (2) the vowel (3) the tone mark ? e.g. ชี้ would be spelled out as 'ช ช้าง, สระ ี, ไม้โท' ?

2 - The 'ai' sound. If I heard สระ ai, i can pretty much assume 'สระ ไ' ? I am guessing, use ไม้มลาย (ไ) when you really need to differentiate from ไม้ม้วน (ใ) in colloquial speech ? Then there is ไทย. You would spell that out as 'ไม้มลาย, ท ทหาร, ย ยักษ์' ?

Figured it would be pretty straight forward but i am a little hesistant to assume the rules 'always apply'. If anyone had anything to add, please do.

[sigeena]

Hello,

Do you mean this as an instruction or as a question seeking clarification?

My system with my gf is that she'll spell it in the order written. In the case of เดา, she'll go สระ เ ด เด็ก สระ า

It may not be universal but it works for us.

[eric67]

I'm no expert, but what I usually hear Thai people do is to spell it like this (sorry, no thai keyboard):

Lae = Lor Ae Lae

Dtao = Dtor Ao Dtao

etc.

So, just the sound the consonants and the vowels make (i.e. just Lor instead of Lor Ling and just Ae instead of Sara Ae), followed by the complete word.

I'm not sure how they do the spelling with vowels like Ai Mai Malai or with tonemarks, maybe someone else can fill that in?

[aitch]

Thanks for the replies sigeena and eric67. I figured there was a shorthand way to spell out the words (not quite there yet though). Was thinking along the lines of a classroom type setting so i can pin the word down and look it up. A good friend of mine is taking classes at Sukhothai Thammathirat and I am helping her with her English class while she helps me with my Thai. The conversations flow fairly well but both of us really need to work on vocabulary. So when that mystery word comes up, it's a 'stop and spell'. My expectation is that she knows the English alphabet and all the punctuation so i need to recipricate that (learn on my own time). I am back in the States, so all of this is over the phone and online chat. For me learning Thai is more of a hobby i suppose but for her learning English is more about the family buisness (tour/transport). I have never taken a Thai class. Everything i have learned has been via the net, friends like the one here, and reading (I would say Mary Haas has given me the foundation of what i understand today).

another example of what i am strugglung with

สระ ั and สระ ะ - for example, how would you spell out ตะวันตก ?

[HappyInCM]

Thanks for the replies sigeena and eric67. I figured there was a shorthand way to spell out the words (not quite there yet though). Was thinking along the lines of a classroom type setting so i can pin the word down and look it up. A good friend of mine is taking classes at Sukhothai Thammathirat and I am helping her with her English class while she helps me with my Thai. The conversations flow fairly well but both of us really need to work on vocabulary. So when that mystery word comes up, it's a 'stop and spell'. My expectation is that she knows the English alphabet and all the punctuation so i need to recipricate that (learn on my own time). I am back in the States, so all of this is over the phone and online chat. For me learning Thai is more of a hobby i suppose but for her learning English is more about the family buisness (tour/transport). I have never taken a Thai class. Everything i have learned has been via the net, friends like the one here, and reading (I would say Mary Haas has given me the foundation of what i understand today).

another example of what i am strugglung with

สระ ั and สระ ะ - for example, how would you spell out ตะวันตก ?

ั is called ไม้หันอากาศ mai (high tone) han (rising) aa (middle)-gaat (low).

สระ ะ is sara-a and there are three forms (don't know if "form" is the completely correct terminology) - the above (ไม้หันอากาศ), this one and an implicit one for example between the ส and ร in สระ.

Edited March 3, 2010 by eljefe2

[tvh13]

For the situation you describe where you need to find a word I have been using a thai dictionary on my iPhone. It goes both ways English thai thai English. Also google translate works well for me but I am just a beginner.

How does it work for you or she to write out the word rather than spell it aloud?

[aitch]

Thanks Guys, pretty much have this hashed out now.

The basic flow is:

I hear a word i don't know - stop, have her repeat - i try to spell it out - she corrects - i write it down and look it up - verify - continue with the conversation - i have a running worksheet of these words that i update after each conversation.

Some recent words include: พิพิธภัณฑ์, สภาพแวดล้อม, เด็กดื้อ, ตำแหน่งงาน, เลื่อนตำแหน่ง, and ครูพิเศษ

These are words that you would not use everyday BUT they did come up in a conversation. The words tend to stick and i have to assume that they are current (Mary Haas stuff i have learned was first published some 50 odd years ago).

Right now, I am trying to get her to pronounce words that end in 'S' correctly and when i hear indecision in her voice, i crank up the TV and say 'what ?'. Drives her nuts but it works.

[Richard W]

Thai oral spelling is quite chaotic. Often enough typing order is used, so the only difficult thing to remember is that the order for a vertical stack of symbols is consonant, vowel (or mark) below, vowel above, mark above.

The more didactic method is consonant, vowel, mark or consonant, mark, vowel whenever the vowel's representation contains vowel symbols as opposed to being indicated only by consonants. The vowel comes first if any part of it precedes the tone mark in typing order. I have a nearly 50-year old textbook which gives the following examples (using what was to have been the forum's phonetic scheme):

บ้าน is spelled [M]baw [H]mai[M]thoo [L]sa[L]ra [M]aa [M]naw

เมื่อ is spelled [M]maw [L]sa[L]ra [M]uea [H]mai[L]eek

แล้ว is spelled [M]law [L]sa[L]ra [M]ae [H]mai[M]thoo [M]waw

เดี๋ยวนี้ is spelled [M]daw [M]sa[M]ra [M]ia [H]mai[L]jat[L]ta[M]waa [M]waw [M]naw [L]sa[L]ra [M]ii [H]mai[M]thoo

เอา is spelled [M]aw [L]sa[L]ra [M]ao

This system is potentially ambiguous with words like แมโคร, and it seems typing order would be resorted to in this case.