Thai Police Seize Internet Chat Logs

[johncitizen]

More golden oldies from the playbook. This article has two purposes- linking the bombings with the Red-Shirts, and cracking down on dissidents as indicated in the last line of the article...

"in an attempt to identify the IP address of K. Thong, or any other people posting items in breach of the Computer Crime Act, and if they were able to be identified they will be summoned for questioning."

The junta is losing the battle for legitimacy and will soon give up on seeking it. Prepare for Burma mk. 2!

EDIT: I find the tone of some of the bloggers here simply terrifying- you'll allow every one of your rights to be taken away as long as it only affects people you disagree with. I'll be looking for you among the frenzied lynch mobs stuffing shoes down the throats of the hanging democracy-activists. Wake up, and don't allow history to repeat itself.

What a hysterical load of rubbish, what rights do you, as a Farang, imagine that you have in Thailand? Stuffing shoes down throats of lymchees may be common where you come from, but I have never heard of it?

You might want to reference Thammasat, 1976. Those protesters were accused of being enemies of "Nation, Religion, Monarchy" too.

EDIT: And I have photographic evidence of exactly what I was talking about, if you want me to direct them to you.

Edited March 4, 2010 by johncitizen

[YanTree]

Given the context I'm not sure how I feel about it - something tells me they would do the same thing in America, though it would probably not be a raid, but instead a court order that would be complied with.

What I don't get is two-fold:

a) why does Thai Visa not make it clear this was Thai on Thai and related to Thaksin (well, I know the answer, but thanks for the fear mongering TV! Always great to have my heart sink at least once a week from your emails!)

Why do the police need to 'raid' a state owned company? Can't they just walk in calmly through the front door and do whatever they want?

[Jonathanpattaya]

This could have implications for the internet in general in Thailand.

Careful which websites you visit!

[mca]

or any other people posting items in breach of the Computer Crime Act

Unfortunately this "breach" can include posting videos on the internet or copying and pasting a news report from a respected international source.

[mca]

This could have implications for the internet in general in Thailand.

Careful which websites you visit!

I wonder if goblinstube.com is on their list? I hope not!

Edited March 4, 2010 by mca

[monkfish]

Given the context I'm not sure how I feel about it - something tells me they would do the same thing in America, though it would probably not be a raid, but instead a court order that would be complied with.

What I don't get is two-fold:

a) why does Thai Visa not make it clear this was Thai on Thai and related to Thaksin (well, I know the answer, but thanks for the fear mongering TV! Always great to have my heart sink at least once a week from your emails!)

Why do the police need to 'raid' a state owned company? Can't they just walk in calmly through the front door and do whatever they want?

Who knows? may be they did just walk in and ask for the server but that wouldn't have made a good news would it?

"Police walk into state owned CAT telecom requesting access to there own server which was handed over with a smile"

Just don't sound the same some how.

[StreetCowboy]

8>< SNIP ><8

Why do the police need to 'raid' a state owned company? Can't they just walk in calmly through the front door and do whatever they want?

That would be FAR more sinister; that a government agency was willingly divulging sensitive material without good reason.

The point is that the raid was a specific (and quite possibly authorised) out-of-the-run-of-the-mill action to collate evidence for a specific investigation. Just like any other seizure of evidence; the same could be done in any Western country with the appropriate reviews and authorisations.

What would be sinister would be the routine sifting of information as an initiating-point for investigations; routinely making information available for investigation.

I don't know to what extent this is done already, but it seems to me that credit card bills, phone bills, pre-paid train ticket logs, internet logs, ATM logs could all go into sophisticated pattern recognition software and pull out the real villians with a 1 in a million chance of getting it wrong. The trouble is, that 1 in a million is a lot of innocent people being stitched up when the software sifts the data from everyone in the land...

SC

[SeanMoran]

8>< SNIP ><8

Why do the police need to 'raid' a state owned company? Can't they just walk in calmly through the front door and do whatever they want?

That would be FAR more sinister; that a government agency was willingly divulging sensitive material without good reason.

The point is that the raid was a specific (and quite possibly authorised) out-of-the-run-of-the-mill action to collate evidence for a specific investigation. Just like any other seizure of evidence; the same could be done in any Western country with the appropriate reviews and authorisations.

What would be sinister would be the routine sifting of information as an initiating-point for investigations; routinely making information available for investigation.

I don't know to what extent this is done already, but it seems to me that credit card bills, phone bills, pre-paid train ticket logs, internet logs, ATM logs could all go into sophisticated pattern recognition software and pull out the real villians with a 1 in a million chance of getting it wrong. The trouble is, that 1 in a million is a lot of innocent people being stitched up when the software sifts the data from everyone in the land...

SC

To err is human, but with a computer, an human can err much more efficiently.

[mca]

Stuffing shoes down throats of lymchees may be common where you come from, but I have never heard of it?

You might find the cover of the Dead Kennedys "Holiday In Cambodia" single enlightening.

BTW it's not in Cambodia.

[granuaile]

and you'll be quite happy when they close down Facebook, MySpace, Hi5, Twitter etc etc like they have in Iran and China will you?

Well I'll survive. I would miss them but I would still be here. However this has absolutely nothing to do with social networking sites, it has to do with catching individuals engaged in both real terrorism and instigating terrorism. In the US they have done the same more than once, and Islamic militants have been judged for merely being in the wrong place at the wrong time and accused of terrorism.

There have been real acts intended to cause economic damage as well as to instill fear in people here. Hurrah that the government is going after them.

[featography]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin.

Have fun in the Police state....

Absolutely correct.

Those that don't learn from history, are destined to repeat it

Seem to recall from school the British were Big Brother in the 1700's. They too called the colonists disidents, terrorists, threats to law and order as well as names given the Red's.

How different?

[YanTree]

8>< SNIP ><8

Why do the police need to 'raid' a state owned company? Can't they just walk in calmly through the front door and do whatever they want?

That would be FAR more sinister; that a government agency was willingly divulging sensitive material without good reason.

The point is that the raid was a specific (and quite possibly authorised) out-of-the-run-of-the-mill action to collate evidence for a specific investigation. Just like any other seizure of evidence; the same could be done in any Western country with the appropriate reviews and authorisations.

What would be sinister would be the routine sifting of information as an initiating-point for investigations; routinely making information available for investigation.

I don't know to what extent this is done already, but it seems to me that credit card bills, phone bills, pre-paid train ticket logs, internet logs, ATM logs could all go into sophisticated pattern recognition software and pull out the real villians with a 1 in a million chance of getting it wrong. The trouble is, that 1 in a million is a lot of innocent people being stitched up when the software sifts the data from everyone in the land...

SC

This is a good point. I see a possible silver lining here. They most likely aren't snooping everything we do on the internet if they had to raid a state owned company.

That or this was just for news and fear mongering.

[granuaile]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin.

Have fun in the Police state....

Thailand is not the U.S. nor is it a colony or dependency of the U.S. The U.S. is far worse right now, where attending the wrong meeting, even purchasing a newspaper from some international groups labeled as terrorists could lead to arrest, fines, and imprisonment (as providing material support). This isn't about giving up anything. The authorities are using Thai law to investigate terrorist activities, nothing given up here. This isn't the US, Europe, Australia, or New Zealand, it is Thailand.

[featography]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin.

Have fun in the Police state....

How does quoting a famous quote by Benjamin Franklin manage to fit the political scenario of Thailand? A classical shallow statement which fails to quantify what is "essential liberty" and what is "a little temporary safety". Taking statements out of context does not make then right, apart from which, if Franklin lived in these times of rampant terrorism, I am sure he would have had the intellect not to use that statement in this context.

Spoken like a Brit

[animatic]

Once the IP if the laptop is ascertained, it can be traced each time it is used.

So a pattern can be discerned and logical repeats mapped and the culprit found.

Your thinking of the MAC address, not the IP Address... IP addresses can change depending on providers etc, True for instance will change your IP address about once per day with an always-on ADSL connection. Its safe to assume that each time you connect to your ISP you will be given a new IP Address from a range of IP numbers they use. Typically you have to pay to use the same IP address each time (Static IP addresses)

Think of the MAC address as the serial number on your Network card/Wireless card - its pretty much unique and is hardware orientated - it is possible to spoof MAC addresses and/or change MAC addresses, but most people dont really know anything about them, so it does take a little specialised knowledge to do this

Thats in lay-man terms and may not be completely 100% correct, but gives you a basic understanding

DNS is used a lot.

But under it there is a machine address typically.

But you have provided much more detail than I had the strength to put put today.

I didn't think to delve into hardware spoofing as such, since we likely have lost most punters already.

Thanks.

[landofthefree]

Big brother is wonderful.

Until they come knocking on your door with a list of illegal sites that are not acceptable for viewing here.

The good news is that it would take them rather a long time (ie forever) to do just that. Tell captain Paranoia to go back to sleep!

[granuaile]

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, everybody SHOULD have the right to free speech, BUT to incite or condone violence is neither, and these people do both and deerve what they get. How many of you who bemoan the police actions, would dare to post the same incentive for violence in the USA or the UK? As for the expats who are constantly posting negative comments about Thai's and The Thai government I say this; Who asked you to come here, if you don't like the way the country is run - go to the home you left because you weren't happy there either.

The same question has entered my mind. .

[cmiuc]

Big brother is wonderful.

Until they come knocking on your door with a list of illegal sites that are not acceptable for viewing here.

Yeah I hope they can clean up a lot of the crap going on the net here in thailand...

file sharing, p2p, porn, illegal drug deals, while sweeping up, sweep up those misdemeanors too! be a whole new way of making some 'tea money'

[mca]

file sharing, p2p, porn

As cmiuc covers 99.9% of my internet activity.

Edited March 4, 2010 by mca

[gregb]

I'd say you're fairly spot on, and MAC addresses are not usually passed across the Internet, unless there's some sort of software goes snooping around on your PC. I maybe wrong but I am under the impression that the ISP normally gets the IP address, so that we can be recognised during our online session, but MAC addresses are not relevant to the Internet. I am sure it is possible, but do ISPs try to record MAC addresses nowdays? I'd think it's rather an intrusion on my laptop.

Actually, no, it is not possible FOR THE ISP to record MAC addresses unless there is some non standard protocol running on your machine that specifically sends this. IP routers only pass layer 3 info. All layer 2 info, such as MAC address, is discarded by the router. However, if the police can identify the router used, they can sieze the logs in that piece of equipment to check for the MAC addresses. ISP's may not have layer 2 info, but there is alot of incriminating information that can be had by law enforcement officials if they know the IP address.

Truthfully though, MAC addresses can easily be changed as well, so really don't worry too much about this. You are much more likely to get busted by a security camera that filmed you typing away on that bench at Lotus than you are by an electronic identifier like a MAC address.

[mca]

Actually, no, it is not possible FOR THE ISP to record MAC addresses unless there is some non standard protocol running on your machine that specifically sends this. IP routers only pass layer 3 info. All layer 2 info, such as MAC address, is discarded by the router.

Later on that evening gregb pondered why he had never been laid in his life.

( Only joking mate!!)

[gregb]

Given the context I'm not sure how I feel about it - something tells me they would do the same thing in America, though it would probably not be a raid, but instead a court order that would be complied with.

What I don't get is two-fold:

a) why does Thai Visa not make it clear this was Thai on Thai and related to Thaksin (well, I know the answer, but thanks for the fear mongering TV! Always great to have my heart sink at least once a week from your emails!)

Why do the police need to 'raid' a state owned company? Can't they just walk in calmly through the front door and do whatever they want?

Who knows? may be they did just walk in and ask for the server but that wouldn't have made a good news would it?

"Police walk into state owned CAT telecom requesting access to there own server which was handed over with a smile"

Just don't sound the same some how.

The problem is, nobody know exactly how far Thaksin's tentacles reach. A polite request would give an engineer plenty of time to erase or doctor the information so as to be useless to an investigator. The seizure, while appearing dramatic, is also much more likely to be accurate and admissible in a court of law.

Just because these are state owned enterprises, does not mean there are not duplicitous engineers inside them.

[StreetCowboy]

Big brother is wonderful.

Until they come knocking on your door with a list of illegal sites that are not acceptable for viewing here.

The good news is that it would take them rather a long time (ie forever) to do just that. Tell captain Paranoia to go back to sleep!

The problem comes when a computer is allowed to check what web sites you visit etc.

Computer resources can be easily allocated to scrutinise every web-surfer in the country.

Then:

a) everything that we do can be scrutinised, so that we could be hauled up for relatively minor misdemeanours (illegal gambling on the UK National Lottery?)

filters can be applied to pull out other info that might be of interest - this would be the fun bit of the job, but still very very naughty from a personal freedoms and invasion of privacy perspective

c) there will be a lot of '1 in a million' false positives where all the signs of a villian are found in an innocent person.

SC

[Bearhawk07]

More golden oldies from the playbook. This article has two purposes- linking the bombings with the Red-Shirts, and cracking down on dissidents as indicated in the last line of the article...

"in an attempt to identify the IP address of K. Thong, or any other people posting items in breach of the Computer Crime Act, and if they were able to be identified they will be summoned for questioning."

The junta is losing the battle for legitimacy and will soon give up on seeking it. Prepare for Burma mk. 2!

EDIT: I find the tone of some of the bloggers here simply terrifying- you'll allow every one of your rights to be taken away as long as it only affects people you disagree with. I'll be looking for you among the frenzied lynch mobs stuffing shoes down the throats of the hanging democracy-activists. Wake up, and don't allow history to repeat itself.

I am glad that someone see past their nose.

[jboras]

Yihahhh! Way to go tell the suspect all you know!

[Bearhawk07]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin.

Have fun in the Police state....

How does quoting a famous quote by Benjamin Franklin manage to fit the political scenario of Thailand? A classical shallow statement which fails to quantify what is "essential liberty" and what is "a little temporary safety". Taking statements out of context does not make then right, apart from which, if Franklin lived in these times of rampant terrorism, I am sure he would have had the intellect not to use that statement in this context.

The quote is very true and truth does not change with the times.

[Jimi007]

It does seem like rather a longshot to pickup someone's own home IP address when I can take this little laptop in its bag on my shoulder and walk up to Tesco Lotus and sit there on their free wifi doing fairly much anything anonymously.

If someone is foolish enough to start inciting a civil war from their home ADSL, it's probably in their best interests that they get arrested and thrown in jail where they won't have ADSL to harm themselves anymore.

LOL! I totally agree with you on this! But they may find the MAC address of the computer involved...

They may also find the thousands of laptops that have been stolen and are now being used for this very purpose. I hope you reported your laptop stolen to the police. Most laptops from overseas will inform them of who the original owner was, even if you use it at Tasco Lotus free wifi or you are stealing someones ADSL WIFI that they have not locked. My laptop picks up 5 different private addresses near home 3 are locked and 2 unlocked. I dont use them.

I use an old Apple G-4, my ADSL WiFi is locked, I have never had a laptop stolen. CAT is my service provider... I was wondering why I had to re-boot my router yesterday a few times... Maybe because the police were removing servers. The MAC address of a computer is not changeable, it is the ID of the computer. Banks can see if you are the owner of the computer as well as the NSA, FBI, etc. I worked at the RSA convention for years. Met the director of the FBI and NSA. Internet security is a huge priority in the USA. China and others have been stealing technology from the USA for years, and now tried to attack Google. But tracing an IP address isn't going to do much as the IP address changes every time you connect to ADSL, unless you pay more for a fixed IP address... I can only say that's my understanding of the internet... I would like to know more!

[Para]

It does seem like rather a longshot to pickup someone's own home IP address when I can take this little laptop in its bag on my shoulder and walk up to Tesco Lotus and sit there on their free wifi doing fairly much anything anonymously.

If someone is foolish enough to start inciting a civil war from their home ADSL, it's probably in their best interests that they get arrested and thrown in jail where they won't have ADSL to harm themselves anymore.

LOL! I totally agree with you on this! But they may find the MAC address of the computer involved...

Ok so the get the NIC MAC address then what? Sniff EVERY data packet for the MAC so they can get another WiFi IP address which is just as meaningless as the original IP addy Get real!

The bottom line is Thaksin and his crew are well funded and well supported and I'm not talking about the number pf red shirts i am talking about specialists. Thaksin is without doubt one exceptionally clever man who along with his inner circle have meticulously planned and executed the most amazing long term plan.

The posting of the video, if such a post really exists would not of been made by a top ranking aid from his home pc without the use of proxy servers and MAC changers. These two technical aids will make it impossible to find. Why do you think the use of a proxy server is classed as illegal here in Thailand?

Thats Big Brother dealt with now whats Big Father going to do?

Big Father's favorite son has just brought him a nice present, the physical CAT server do you think for 1 second they will only be looking at posters/connections to that 1 specific chat room? Smell the coffee boys...........

As a side comment you all realize that ALL text messages are kept on file for 5 years don't you?

Been working in IT for 25 years now feel free to comment on the facts I have just posted.

Para

[Para]

It does seem like rather a longshot to pickup someone's own home IP address when I can take this little laptop in its bag on my shoulder and walk up to Tesco Lotus and sit there on their free wifi doing fairly much anything anonymously.

If someone is foolish enough to start inciting a civil war from their home ADSL, it's probably in their best interests that they get arrested and thrown in jail where they won't have ADSL to harm themselves anymore.

LOL! I totally agree with you on this! But they may find the MAC address of the computer involved...

They may also find the thousands of laptops that have been stolen and are now being used for this very purpose. I hope you reported your laptop stolen to the police. Most laptops from overseas will inform them of who the original owner was, even if you use it at Tasco Lotus free wifi or you are stealing someones ADSL WIFI that they have not locked. My laptop picks up 5 different private addresses near home 3 are locked and 2 unlocked. I dont use them.

I use an old Apple G-4, my ADSL WiFi is locked, I have never had a laptop stolen. CAT is my service provider... I was wondering why I had to re-boot my router yesterday a few times... Maybe because the police were removing servers. The MAC address of a computer is not changeable, it is the ID of the computer. Banks can see if you are the owner of the computer as well as the NSA, FBI, etc. I worked at the RSA convention for years. Met the director of the FBI and NSA. Internet security is a huge priority in the USA. China and others have been stealing technology from the USA for years, and now tried to attack Google. But tracing an IP address isn't going to do much as the IP address changes every time you connect to ADSL, unless you pay more for a fixed IP address... I can only say that's my understanding of the internet... I would like to know more!

Oh yes it is there is plenty of Windows and Linux s/ware out there that will allow YOU to choose any MAC you want. Cloak and dagger.......

[SeanMoran]

It does seem like rather a longshot to pickup someone's own home IP address when I can take this little laptop in its bag on my shoulder and walk up to Tesco Lotus and sit there on their free wifi doing fairly much anything anonymously.

If someone is foolish enough to start inciting a civil war from their home ADSL, it's probably in their best interests that they get arrested and thrown in jail where they won't have ADSL to harm themselves anymore.

LOL! I totally agree with you on this! But they may find the MAC address of the computer involved...

Ok so the get the NIC MAC address then what? Sniff EVERY data packet for the MAC so they can get another WiFi IP address which is just as meaningless as the original IP addy Get real!

The bottom line is Thaksin and his crew are well funded and well supported and I'm not talking about the number pf red shirts i am talking about specialists. Thaksin is without doubt one exceptionally clever man who along with his inner circle have meticulously planned and executed the most amazing long term plan.

The posting of the video, if such a post really exists would not of been made by a top ranking aid from his home pc without the use of proxy servers and MAC changers. These two technical aids will make it impossible to find. Why do you think the use of a proxy server is classed as illegal here in Thailand?

Thats Big Brother dealt with now whats Big Father going to do?

Big Father's favorite son has just brought him a nice present, the physical CAT server do you think for 1 second they will only be looking at posters/connections to that 1 specific chat room? Smell the coffee boys...........

As a side comment you all realize that ALL text messages are kept on file for 5 years don't you?

Been working in IT for 25 years now feel free to comment on the facts I have just posted.

Para

Dear Bad Guys,

please don't blow up anymore banks anymore for the moment (until the publicity dies down) because we've made it public to the media that we have confiscated a server and we are doing all we can to stop you, so don't be mean anymore and we'll work out how to get you eventually.

Yours Faithfully,

The Good Guys.