Thai Police Seize Internet Chat Logs

[joewood]

Thanks to the few sound and sensible responses to this issue.

No-one paints any country whiter than white.

All political parties in every country have their strategy think-tanks, their PR/propaganda departments, their discrediting opponents specialist teams, and entrapment plans worked out from risk-assessment exercises.

Other places in the world are light years ahead of South-East Asian countries in being able to trace your every move but that isn't to say that agencies and factions in Thailand have any the less intent. We are all human

and we will all defend our own chosen, grown and invested interests, whoever we are, wherever we are.

Talking about the political aspects and issues is a red-herring to this issue.

Like-wise the issue about IP addresses and other computer details that can or cannot be easily traced is also another red herring even though enlightening and interesting.

Having a degree of fear of something is in itself, quite healthy, wise and self-preserving, if felt moderately. In the extreme it becomes paranoia and scare-mongering.

In this police action, disregarding a Hollywood screen-writer's twist on it to make it look like a Taksin -inspired attempt to provoke sympathy, no freedom of speech was denied or lost. No rights were taken away, as some alarmists would have you believe.

But conjuring up images of lynch-mobs, state-managed, police or army or mafia controlled or independent serves no purpose here.

With so many people with so much political and quasi-moral and legal baggage concerns, this topic has been unintentionally (?) truly torpedoed.

What it comes down to is this :

When you are laying in a hospital bed with your legs blown off from a bomb, beside a bed on your left with your partner whose face has been disfigured and you are both screened off from another bed in which your child's body lays ripped apart, are you really going to be thankful that you and your family are the sacrificed victims who have had to pay for the "right" of someone on the internet to incite violence ?

That is what it comes down to.

Nothing more.

Answer it in your own time.

Edited March 4, 2010 by joewood

[Foggy Bottom]

There is the possibility of two concurrent IP addresses when a LAN-networked PC is in use - the internal LAN IP (usually something like 192.168.x.x on Microsoft-based networks) and the router IP address that interfaces to the WAN/ISP connection, issued by the ISP each time the router is rebooted, or a sparrow farts on the telephone line somewhere.

Then there is the potential of the LAN having a genuine Client-Server server in place (not a peer-to-peer group of XP boxes), which is acting as a proxy and firewall to the LAN. It will have two internal network (minimum) IP addresses within different address ranges and sub-net groups - e.g. 192.168.1.x / 255.255.255.0 and 192.168.2.x / 255.255.255.1.0 - in order to separate internal traffic from the DMZ between the server housed firewall and the public internet connecting router.

With just the simple set up above, there's too many legitimate barriers to IP and MAC harvesting, without users having to resort to spoofing etc. to remain anonymous. Once WiFi enters the LAN-WAN scenario then it gets even more difficult (if not impossible) to track an individual connection session and identify the user and machine from the logs on an external (to the LAN) server.

Besides, who's to say the alleged perpetrator actually used a PC to upload the video? It could have been done via any number of nefarious routes via handheld devices such as iphones and so on - squirt the video as a blog post to a hacked WordPress blog (millions of those occur daily) with the relevant autoposting plug-in to redirect a copy to YouTube and others (such as the site apparently under investigation), and the posting of that video can be made to appear as if it came from the US via Khazboggystan or Timsbumtoo, with obfuscation of the IP trail via anonymous proxies - Google those and you'll find legal business services for them even in countries like the UK and US.

What I suspect the police are investigating here, is a little more insidious - it's possible, but by no means certain that the webhosts have to echo their hosting clients' server logs to CAT. Those logs will record who logged into each site/hosting space, from which recorded IP (obtained via reverse-DNS lookups at the time of connection - visit ip2location.com if you want to give yourself a fright about how much info can be obtained just by connecting to a site - and that's just the publicly shareable part of it). What you'll see at ip2location.com is just the tip of the iceberg regarding the data that can be obtained from your PC if the right coding is placed into a webpage ... and it's coding that will not trip the browser attack site alerts, because it's "designed-in" functionality of the http protocols.

Many IRC client applications (e,g, Skype, AOL Messenger, Google Chat client etc) record so much more than just your IP address in order to comply with US Federal requirements under the Patriot Act and other liberties infringements, which are then applied globally, not just within the US borders. This recording though is "flat" - i.e. it's like a hotel register - who was where, with whom, when, doing what. It can be useful to police, but only "after the fact". However, it's less than two years since the Austrian Police outed a call from the FBI for hackers to develop applications to break through Skype's call and chat encryptioning, in order that they could eavesdrop (wiretap without authority) anywhere in the world, on any Skype connection, at any time. It's widely reported on the Internet - Google : FBI Skype hacking request - or similar. No wonder eBay wanted to ditch Skype at such a financial loss - they'd probably already picked up the substantial reward being touted by the FBI for enabling them to eavesdrop.

The clue to the amount of data the police will have access to, is in the OP - look at the type of internet activity logged by that server (or the logs housed on that server if I'm reading the story correctly), it'll be a lot more than just IP - website - user account mash-ups. It'll also include connected conversation partner details, duration of chat, potentially content of chat itself, email logs with full message headers (and those contain a scary amount of info about your PC), and so on.

Other easily acquired data from HTML & PHP encoding (the languages to make websites) include which browser and PC operating system you use, size and screen resolution of your monitor, connection device maximum and minimum speed, router brand and model number and so on. I've not seen it personally, but I'm told it's possible to acquire the serial number of your CPU chip that's embedded on the silicone inside the chip. Dunno if that's wishful thinking or rumour, but I've heard it from a couple of directions.

Depending on the start and end date of the logs, there's going to be an awful lot of an awful lot of peoples' data on that server - logs are usually plain text and compress nicely, so a lot fits in a very small drive space.

---

While I applaud the police for doing their job to the best of their ability, the existence of a broad remit ECOTEC, like an unleashed ISOC, is scary, even to people doing nothing wrong, especially with Thailand's recent history of Press, Media, and Internet censorship and suppression - they should learn from Google's recent decision to pull out of China, it could happen here too, and would seriously damage investment confidence.

With 500,000 SE Asian foreign workers facing the boot from the Kingdom over nationality proof issues, with the current round of Burmese refugee deportations for "repatriation" by the Junta, and similar "clear outs" currently in progress for other groups of foreigners, police seizing a logs-server is very worrying - but most especially with the closing quote of the OP admitting that the police will also use this seizure to go on a "fishing" expedition whilst filtering those logs in search of their named miscreant.

Foggy

[eggomaniac]

I am sure most posters dont realise the history details kept on servers could be quite damming

EGGsactly. On the other hand, there is tons of tea money to be made when they discover the Thai women with multiple overseas bf's sending 'allowances' and and 'emergency' payments.

[Cnxforever]

More golden oldies from the playbook. This article has two purposes- linking the bombings with the Red-Shirts, and cracking down on dissidents as indicated in the last line of the article...

"in an attempt to identify the IP address of K. Thong, or any other people posting items in breach of the Computer Crime Act, and if they were able to be identified they will be summoned for questioning."

The junta is losing the battle for legitimacy and will soon give up on seeking it. Prepare for Burma mk. 2!

EDIT: I find the tone of some of the bloggers here simply terrifying- you'll allow every one of your rights to be taken away as long as it only affects people you disagree with. I'll be looking for you among the frenzied lynch mobs stuffing shoes down the throats of the hanging democracy-activists. Wake up, and don't allow history to repeat itself.

Thanks for this - exactly what I think - it has always started like this - first they try to look legit - going after "criminals" - and suddenly everybody who happens to disagree with them is a "criminal".

Goering, Goebbels and Hitler where masters at this - taking your rights away little by little under the disguise of legitimate law enforcement.

They know who these people are - do they have such powerful backers that they can not be arrested - are they maybe working for the armed forces themselves to create the conditions for another coup.

After all it's not so long ago that one of them was accused of trying to kill Thaksin - and suddenly switched sides.

War weapons found in ones home and no arrest??? What more evidence does the police need ?? Or are they not allowed by somebody higher up to arrest them ??

[anotherpeter]

There is the possibility of two concurrent IP addresses when a LAN-networked PC is in use - the internal LAN IP (usually something like 192.168.x.x on Microsoft-based networks) and the router IP address that interfaces to the WAN/ISP connection, issued by the ISP each time the router is rebooted, or a sparrow farts on the telephone line somewhere.

Then there is the potential of the LAN having a genuine Client-Server server in place (not a peer-to-peer group of XP boxes), which is acting as a proxy and firewall to the LAN. It will have two internal network (minimum) IP addresses within different address ranges and sub-net groups - e.g. 192.168.1.x / 255.255.255.0 and 192.168.2.x / 255.255.255.1.0 - in order to separate internal traffic from the DMZ between the server housed firewall and the public internet connecting router.

With just the simple set up above, there's too many legitimate barriers to IP and MAC harvesting, without users having to resort to spoofing etc. to remain anonymous. Once WiFi enters the LAN-WAN scenario then it gets even more difficult (if not impossible) to track an individual connection session and identify the user and machine from the logs on an external (to the LAN) server.

....

Thai law (one of the computer crime ones) now states that every company must store internet logs of computer use within their company to be able to identify network users that have accessed the internet and details of what they have done. For home users, the ISPs must do this.

Ofcourse, no one actually does this. TIT afterall.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

EDIT: I find the tone of some of the bloggers here simply terrifying- you'll allow every one of your rights to be taken away as long as it only affects people you disagree with. I'll be looking for you among the frenzied lynch mobs stuffing shoes down the throats of the hanging democracy-activists. Wake up, and don't allow history to repeat itself.

Sorry, but these laws have been in place for quite a while, some of them even before the coup. Eihter way, the exact same thing could happen right now with your posts on the Thaivisa server. This forum is required by law to keep your personal details (IP address, etc of every post). The server may be outside Thailand, but as the business is very much a Thai one it'd be good to understand that records will be handed over on request.

The above is more in general; in this particular case though it's fairly black and white. Threatening terrorism through ANY type of media is an offense; it'd be prosecuted no matter if it was printed on paper, yelled from a soap box or posted on Youtube.

[warmwater7]

I always wanted an older big brother. this one actually seems to be on our side. Works for me! Nice to see something is being done about cleaning up this mess. Make an example out these troublemakers. mai mii bpen haa

AS LAWS THAT ARE TESTED AND BROKEN TO TEST THE LIMITS WILL START IN 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES. THIS IS BY DESIGN.

THE EXCUSE WILL BE TO " BLAME THE BAD GUY ". THIS IS IN ADVANCED SPECIAL FORCES MANUALS. SEIZE THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OUTFITS.NOW TO INCLUDE CYBER ACTIVITY. CHECK YOUR CELL PHONE.

THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO HAVE THE PUBLIC ACTUALLY DEMAND IT.

ANOTHER TEST IS RFID CHIPS. HOW MANY UNSUSPECTING GOOD THAIS BOUGHT IN TO THAT?

I LOVE THAILAND AND THE GOOD PEOPLE IN IT. PRAY FOR THE KING, HE IS A GOOD GUY.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^

Now suddenly RFID is bad..?

[millwall_fan]

Will they be confiscating the army's computers for mounting an illegal coup and overthrowing democracy?

[seri thai]

asiawatcher, l bet you wish you'd stayed in bed.

Of course they are doing the right thing but to tell the media and the terrorists doesn't make sense, unless it's just a warning to stop using sites. Thought better to stay in the background and search for the terrorists on sights than to warn them off.

Can somebody tell me why Major-General Khattiya Sawasdipol is still walking around?

Thats an interesting one. Here's some scenarios, none of which reflect very well on the powers that be:

1 The army are too inept to catch him

2 They are too scared to lock him up

3 He has protection in high places

4 He's actually an ISOC provocateur

and most sensibly

5 He's great value shooting the red shirt movement in the foot everytime he opens his mouth.

Though I think thats a western perspective more than a Thai one

[seri thai]

It is is after all no surprise that Thailand has dropped to spots just behind Zimbabwe and Burma on the press freedom lists since the last putsch.

Thailand 130

(Malaysia) 131

(Singapore) 133

Zimbabwe 136

Burma 171

According the the Reporters Without Borders Index. Just google <press freedom index>, and look at the wikipedia entry.

Tellingly ahead of Singapore and Malaysia though (For the moment)

[Para]

^

Now suddenly RFID is bad..?

RFID is Bad? Thats is an understatement. your nice new passport has RFID so you can happily walk through the 'Express channel' laughing at all the fools queuing with their old style passports.

You would never notice the man hanging around the exit of the "look at me breezing through Immigrations' with his pocket RFID reader collecting ALL the data required to clone your passport along with everyone else that's RFID's

No George Orwell here my friend just basic easily available technology in the hands of the wrong people.

I have not been home to England in over 7 years but I am a technologist by trade. Speeding tickets are automatically received, processed and ready for posting BEFORE you even get to work. Its been possible for satellites to read the headlines of a newspaper on earth for years now.

Now factor in the new face recognition software that's based not on the face as we see it but on the co-ordinates of the bone structure that makes up your face, so glasses, beard, mustache that hide the appearance of your face can not alter the geometry of it.

The cost of high speed super computers falling in line with the same as the average desktops computer put the 3 together and no you don't get paranoia you get a world of Big Brother ultimate dream.

You have social sites that post your location if your phone supports GPS, great for friends BUT the flip side? There was a comment bbb.co.uk click regarding a website http://pleaserobme.com/ guiess what it does?

Where does it all end?

Form a queue for GPS chip implants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JetsetBkk]

Once the IP if the laptop is ascertained, it can be traced each time it is used.

So a pattern can be discerned and logical repeats mapped and the culprit found.

Your thinking of the MAC address, not the IP Address... IP addresses can change depending on providers etc, True for instance will change your IP address about once per day with an always-on ADSL connection. Its safe to assume that each time you connect to your ISP you will be given a new IP Address from a range of IP numbers they use. Typically you have to pay to use the same IP address each time (Static IP addresses)

Think of the MAC address as the serial number on your Network card/Wireless card - its pretty much unique and is hardware orientated - it is possible to spoof MAC addresses and/or change MAC addresses, but most people dont really know anything about them, so it does take a little specialised knowledge to do this

Thats in lay-man terms and may not be completely 100% correct, but gives you a basic understanding

DNS is used a lot.

But under it there is a machine address typically.

But you have provided much more detail than I had the strength to put put today.

I didn't think to delve into hardware spoofing as such, since we likely have lost most punters already.

Thanks.

DNS?

Stick to Thai politics, mate.

[elcent]

Any computer geeks out there?

Would it make more sense to go to the internet company site with the chat rooms?

And /or would it be easier to do their work while the server is stilll connected and running?

Sounds like the are doing a little overkill on this one.

Well observed. Yes it would be indeed easier to infiltrate those chat rooms and gather information/evidence. This way, privacy and data protection acts in various countries are taken care of.

Knowing myself people in other countries doing exactly this, gather as much info/data/evidence as possible and then pick them up.

I don't know why, but I was immediately reminded to the theft of high security data in the government house during the occupation by PAD.

Somebody in the recent govt with a huge appetite of data? Why and for what? I'm aware they used the legal way this time but I wonder from where the orders came.

[MellowYellow]

Woohoo! Yeah! The state monopoly onf force will save us all from everyone EXCEPT the state itself.

Enjoy the fun ride down ye ole slippery slope.

[CLOD]

Or could it be that the investigation into the illegal PAD and yellowshirts doings at the government ( last democratically elected one that is) house, and airport occupation has began????

Put a bit of a smokescreen up, ya know, and sereptisiously collect all those military, elite , PAD and yellowshirts internet plotting traffic as evidence.

Yea all fits together now.

[Considered Opinion]

EDIT: I find the tone of some of the bloggers here simply terrifying- you'll allow every one of your rights to be taken away as long as it only affects people you disagree with. I'll be looking for you among the frenzied lynch mobs stuffing shoes down the throats of the hanging democracy-activists. Wake up, and don't allow history to repeat itself.

Ahh.. a voice of understanding. It takes a chess player to see the writing before the pen is in the hand of the author.

The more Governments are handed our rights on a platter, ready to be removed, shortened or forgotten about, the less we can complain at the end of the day, when our rights are referred to as "do you remember when we could..."

The bombings were a shock, and in an investigative sense, getting the servers and going through the logs makes sense, but then to turn around and say "Lets kill off access to these sites so we can.. or they can't ... or whatever the reason is, is a step one down the path to Burma, with a little subtlety.

[elcent]

Or could it be that the investigation into the illegal PAD and yellowshirts doings at the government ( last democratically elected one that is) house, and airport occupation has began????

Put a bit of a smokescreen up, ya know, and sereptisiously collect all those military, elite , PAD and yellowshirts internet plotting traffic as evidence.

... or the destruction of such?

seriously, nobody is interested of what the PAD and supporters have done in the last couple of months, since they are still under control of how things run or has to run.

Thailand's PM once mentioned himself that he's not happy of the way he's achieved premiership but that the way was legal. Wonder if he's to continue at gunpoint as a front.

Edited March 4, 2010 by elcent

[Richard W]

Can anyone actually explain what the problem is regarding the seizure of the equipment ?

I fail to see the difference ethically or morally between the equipment seizure and phone tapping, old fashioned surveillance techniques, the interception of mail etc.

Some (many?) of us will remember the inconvenience we suffered when the FBI seized the server for thai-language.com.

With the latter three, the main loss is privacy, though mail interception does impose the problem of slower mail deliveries. If the equipment is seized, one loses the use of it and potentially the information stored in it.

[Para]

Can anyone actually explain what the problem is regarding the seizure of the equipment ?

I fail to see the difference ethically or morally between the equipment seizure and phone tapping, old fashioned surveillance techniques, the interception of mail etc.

Some (many?) of us will remember the inconvenience we suffered when the FBI seized the server for thai-language.com.

With the latter three, the main loss is privacy, though mail interception does impose the problem of slower mail deliveries. If the equipment is seized, one loses the use of it and potentially the information stored in it.

Also there is the fact that ALL data stored on the server is available to be checked and you can bet your bottom dollar it all will be scrutinized not just the person/chat room they are after.

phone tapping, old fashioned surveillance techniques, the interception of mail

All of the above target a single person but in this case by taking the server EVERY ONES info on that box is open to investigation. Its like saying we will phone tap the whole of Bangkok because K'Mafia lives in Bangkok.

It the same as a law passed 4 or 5 years ago giving police the right to enter your house if they suspect there is pornography on your computer, LMFAO What is it a case of 'Right we think this one is selling drugs but cant get the necessary info for a judge to sign off a search warrant so lets try the 'Sir we've just looking for porn but whilst we are in your house........'

Data Protection Act, not here.............

[shawndoc]

Do we have any reason to believe the server was a shared server and not a dedicated server?

Confiscation of severs to investigate crimes is normal in Western countries, even when the crimes are civil and not criminal (Servers hosting torrent sites for instance).

People are acting like Thailand is the only place where servers are seized to investigate crimes.

[robanywhere]

Once the IP if the laptop is ascertained, it can be traced each time it is used.

So a pattern can be discerned and logical repeats mapped and the culprit found.

Your thinking of the MAC address, not the IP Address... IP addresses can change depending on providers etc, True for instance will change your IP address about once per day with an always-on ADSL connection. Its safe to assume that each time you connect to your ISP you will be given a new IP Address from a range of IP numbers they use. Typically you have to pay to use the same IP address each time (Static IP addresses)

Think of the MAC address as the serial number on your Network card/Wireless card - its pretty much unique and is hardware orientated - it is possible to spoof MAC addresses and/or change MAC addresses, but most people dont really know anything about them, so it does take a little specialised knowledge to do this

Thats in lay-man terms and may not be completely 100% correct, but gives you a basic understanding

Besides the IP address and MAC address, your computer also has a CPU ID... this is what Microsoft logs and uses to license its Windows and Office software to unique computers across the globe in its WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage) program. Just imagine the huge database Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, etc. have amassed on the global online community... which is available to the CIA, FBI, Interpol, etc. with merely a search warrant... Big Brother has been around a long time, he is just changing tactics from wiretapping of the 70's into internet tapping of the 90's and 00's...

[Loke]

"Police have urged Pornwat to turn himself in to prove his innocence."

"Prove his innocence" - and this task is done only by "turn himself in"?

Makes me think of The Big Bad Wolf, and The Little Red Riding Hood...

[HakimKlunker]

GESTAPO

Mossad / FBI

KGB

I would be intereted to purchase a piece of land on the moon (not facing planet earth)

[billythefish]

The usual responses YET again!

If K Thong told you to go and jump off a cliff....you'd do it right?

Better cut out everyones tongues just to be on the safe side eh?

[billythefish]

Once the IP if the laptop is ascertained, it can be traced each time it is used.

So a pattern can be discerned and logical repeats mapped and the culprit found.

Your thinking of the MAC address, not the IP Address... IP addresses can change depending on providers etc, True for instance will change your IP address about once per day with an always-on ADSL connection. Its safe to assume that each time you connect to your ISP you will be given a new IP Address from a range of IP numbers they use. Typically you have to pay to use the same IP address each time (Static IP addresses)

Think of the MAC address as the serial number on your Network card/Wireless card - its pretty much unique and is hardware orientated - it is possible to spoof MAC addresses and/or change MAC addresses, but most people dont really know anything about them, so it does take a little specialised knowledge to do this

Thats in lay-man terms and may not be completely 100% correct, but gives you a basic understanding

Besides the IP address and MAC address, your computer also has a CPU ID... this is what Microsoft logs and uses to license its Windows and Office software to unique computers across the globe in its WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage) program. Just imagine the huge database Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, etc. have amassed on the global online community... which is available to the CIA, FBI, Interpol, etc. with merely a search warrant... Big Brother has been around a long time, he is just changing tactics from wiretapping of the 70's into internet tapping of the 90's and 00's...

Exactly, and it won't be too long until we are all FORCED to SHUT UP!

[billythefish]

It won't be too long that when you post something like "hanging is too good for em!" you'll be arrested for inciting murder!

[robanywhere]

Big brother...

Thank you Big Brother get rid of scum like this. Good work!!!

Oh sure giving up freedom of speech to rid the world of the "bad guys" is always OK isnrt it? Other people on here argue that the big brother analogy is a knee jerk reaction..... stop and think seriously about it. There are a few things you should consider first-

How do you define who the "good guys" are. Well in a practical context that is easy - the Legitimate Authorities - but no wait wasn't the the Thaksin government a legitimate authority? - how would you argue his right to have done the same thing and have maybe prevented the "coup"?

Serious criminals employ people to keep their identities hidden - there are 15 year olds in internet cafes who could tell you how easy it is to sit behind an anonymous proxy if you know how - in fact many would be using different interenet cafes for each session to make things even more untracable.

Remember too that in Thailand there are laws and protocols, some of which cannot be discussed in this forum, which many people would like to see changed - with these records in police hands who is to say they they wont take the opportunity to go on a cyber shopping expedition to find out who disagrees with certain things

Individual freedom is also at risk in countries where certain basic human rights are breaches of the law - when a civilised society accepts censorship and snooping as acceptable practice then they give legitimacy to China and other counties where it is used for political control. A good example is the recently proposed anti gay legislation in Uganda, no doubt records of who has accessed gay chat rooms will play its part in aiding he government to persecute these people.

It is one thing to seek records in respect of a particualr individual where there is sufficient evidence to suspect a crime, in the same way that phone taps should never be used randomly, and quite another to sieze bul records and sift through them to find if there is a crime.

In the face of things like child abuse, bombings, international terrorism and even cyber bullying - it is tempting to agree to give up freedoms for the greater good - but always remember that it is far more difficult to gain freedoms than it is to give them up.

As with any national security program, the intent may be noble but fail in the hands of those who are unscrupulous or have other agendas. What is the acceptable trade-off between freedom and security? Here's a lesson from the US:

After 9/11, the US lost many personal freedoms under the "Patriot Act", which increased "the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records, eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering, expands the authority to regulate financial transactions, and broadens the discretion of law enforcement in detaining and deporting immigrants ..." (Wikipedia) The Patriot Act was to sunset after four years, but was renewed indefinitely by Congress, making the loss of those freedoms permanent.

There should always be checks and balances to insure some level of privacy and freedom. For instance, the Patriot Act basically bypassed the whole review process (search warrants requiring probabable cause under the Fourth Amendment). So basically the US has fallen into the same trap that allowed abuses of power like J Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon... The terrorists have surreptitiously achieved their goals by undermining the whole democractic underpinnings of America's political system...

Thailand must also reconcile how laws that allow the control /eradication of southern terrorists and anti-government groups may ultimately be used to maintain government power undemocratically (such as our neighbors to the west). Another example is how the law designed to protect the monachy have be abused for politically motivated purposes.

Certainly protecting the common good by pursuing threats to public security is worthwhile. However, care should be taken that these laws are not used to silence political opposition in a healthy democracy...

[toptuan]

Big brother...

Thank you Big Brother get rid of scum like this. Good work!!!

Oh sure giving up freedom of speech to rid the world of the "bad guys" is always OK isnrt it? Other people on here argue that the big brother analogy is a knee jerk reaction..... stop and think seriously about it. There are a few things you should consider first-

How do you define who the "good guys" are. Well in a practical context that is easy - the Legitimate Authorities - but no wait wasn't the the Thaksin government a legitimate authority? - how would you argue his right to have done the same thing and have maybe prevented the "coup"?

Serious criminals employ people to keep their identities hidden - there are 15 year olds in internet cafes who could tell you how easy it is to sit behind an anonymous proxy if you know how - in fact many would be using different interenet cafes for each session to make things even more untracable.

Remember too that in Thailand there are laws and protocols, some of which cannot be discussed in this forum, which many people would like to see changed - with these records in police hands who is to say they they wont take the opportunity to go on a cyber shopping expedition to find out who disagrees with certain things

Individual freedom is also at risk in countries where certain basic human rights are breaches of the law - when a civilised society accepts censorship and snooping as acceptable practice then they give legitimacy to China and other counties where it is used for political control. A good example is the recently proposed anti gay legislation in Uganda, no doubt records of who has accessed gay chat rooms will play its part in aiding he government to persecute these people.

It is one thing to seek records in respect of a particualr individual where there is sufficient evidence to suspect a crime, in the same way that phone taps should never be used randomly, and quite another to sieze bul records and sift through them to find if there is a crime.

In the face of things like child abuse, bombings, international terrorism and even cyber bullying - it is tempting to agree to give up freedoms for the greater good - but always remember that it is far more difficult to gain freedoms than it is to give them up.

As with any national security program, the intent may be noble but fail in the hands of those who are unscrupulous or have other agendas. What is the acceptable trade-off between freedom and security? Here's a lesson from the US:

After 9/11, the US lost many personal freedoms under the "Patriot Act", which increased "the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records, eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering, expands the authority to regulate financial transactions, and broadens the discretion of law enforcement in detaining and deporting immigrants ..." (Wikipedia) The Patriot Act was to sunset after four years, but was renewed indefinitely by Congress, making the loss of those freedoms permanent.

There should always be checks and balances to insure some level of privacy and freedom. For instance, the Patriot Act basically bypassed the whole review process (search warrants requiring probabable cause under the Fourth Amendment). So basically the US has fallen into the same trap that allowed abuses of power like J Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon... The terrorists have surreptitiously achieved their goals by undermining the whole democractic underpinnings of America's political system...

Thailand must also reconcile how laws that allow the control /eradication of southern terrorists and anti-government groups may ultimately be used to maintain government power undemocratically (such as our neighbors to the west). Another example is how the law designed to protect the monachy have be abused for politically motivated purposes.

Certainly protecting the common good by pursuing threats to public security is worthwhile. However, care should be taken that these laws are not used to silence political opposition in a healthy democracy...

Your post sounds very high and lofty, pontificating high ideals and taking the moral high ground.

However, I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too.

Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures. The U.K. and the U.S.A. were under a fortress mentality during the second World War, and MANY freedoms were curtailed to support the war effort. I think we have a parallel situation in the modern world (bigger than just Thailand's problems), facing a terrorist threat which is set on destroying western culture and its way of life--preferably to take us back to the middle ages of the Muslim domination in the Middle East. Those who think we can just blithely carry on with weak, toothless responses, underestimate this relatively new threat which has ramped up to a high crescendo in the last 10-15 years.

[toptuan]

And, just out of curiosity, how is Dubai and Thailand getting along just about now?