Water Retrieval

[David006]

Okay so here's the problem ..

We have a house on a small mountain overlooking our rubber farm with a well which for most of the year supplies our needs and the garden too.

Right now the weather is a bit warm and dry to say the least and the well is getting a bit low..

We have a well in a gully of the farm ( gully to be a lake as soon as funds for the backhoe etc permit).

The well is essentially guesstimated about 200 vertical metres below us and about 10m deep and is at the moment full to ground level.

So the challenge is... what is the easiest way to get that narm into our tank behind the house.

Options I have considered:

- bucket it up into containers and carry to truck which I can get within 30 metres

- pump it up:

a) into truck containers using a gas pump

all the way up the hill to our tank using a gas pump or three??

c) using one or many electric pumps after laying a bloody long cable to feed it..

Any ideas I ain't thought of guys???

Thanks in advance..

david

Edited March 4, 2010 by David006

[lovelomsak]

Hi David

Sounds like you want to add water to the well on the mountain right. I feel this maybe a thankless proposition. With water the water table is the water table wells keep their water level according to the water table.The height of the water table will always be the height of the water in the well. So when you add water to a well you are simply raising the water table. The water you add with spread out through absortion in the soil and you will see negligible height of the water growth in your well.

My suggestion is to use water tanks above ground filled by any method you wish. I would pump it up be it gas or electric. I myself would use gas pumps. Once the tanks are full then designate tanks for certain usage and the well for other designated usage. Perhaps tank water for house and well water for garden. The reason I suggest the well for garden is the lower the water table goes the greater the chance the water will start to appear murky.

One last thing from what I have been reading we maybe in for a long dry spell. So you can never have to much water in reserve if you are self reliant.

[Hobc]

Put pump in the water and push to holding tank, and use another pump to push the water up the hill much more efficient.

[lovelomsak]

Hi David

Sounds like you want to add water to the well on the mountain right. I feel this maybe a thankless proposition. With water the water table is the water table wells keep their water level according to the water table.The height of the water table will always be the height of the water in the well. So when you add water to a well you are simply raising the water table. The water you add with spread out through absortion in the soil and you will see negligible height of the water growth in your well.

My suggestion is to use water tanks above ground filled by any method you wish. I would pump it up be it gas or electric. I myself would use gas pumps. Once the tanks are full then designate tanks for certain usage and the well for other designated usage. Perhaps tank water for house and well water for garden. The reason I suggest the well for garden is the lower the water table goes the greater the chance the water will start to appear murky.

One last thing from what I have been reading we maybe in for a long dry spell. So you can never have to much water in reserve if you are self reliant.

My apologies i misread the thread you already have a container behind your house. Please delete my last reply.

[Hobc]

Forgot to mention 4litres of gas should push 20,000 litres to your house if you set it up properly 38mm polly1 pull of the starter set loa.

[WatersEdge]

200 vertical meters is too much for a single stage centrifugal pump to lift.

If your flow rate is low,

use a positive displacement piston pump,

as used for spraying chemical or fertilizer

and you will need 13.5 bar Pressure Rate PVC pipe to hold the pressure.

They are readily available from a good farm supply store.

Is it indeed 200 vertical meters?

or is it a distance of 200 meters with something less vertical head?

This is do-able if we know the vertical head and flow rate.

The most efficient design will have a small electric powered pump that runs all the time.

This allows you to use a small pipe diameter.

[Maizefarmer]

Single phase submersible electric pump will do the job just fine - ac, only because alternating current doesn't loose much power over distance, and the power source is readily avaliable, as are pumps to run off it - or if its a dc submersible pump, at least run ac down to the bottom of the valley, then rectify and regulate it for whatever dc voltage/current is required (most submersible pump manufacturers that supply dc type pumps will be able to offer a ac/dc circuit as part of the package). I've said nothing here about solar - solar panels that are a long way from the house and can't be viewed/covered easily, a) don't tend to function well at all when placed in low down positions on the sides of hills/slopes etc...... the miss half the days sun, and they tend to go walkabout after a while (good chance it'll get nicked unless you can secure it somehow, which usualy means covering it and that leads to them working even less efficiently!), and last but not least, no ways you are going to be able to run solar panel generated dc current downhill 200m plus distance angle, and expect it to work efficiently - you'd to double up on the panel requirement and then also run some enormously thick cable - hel_l knows what it would add to the overall cost(??). I just can't see it been worth it or practical.

You'll need a submersible that is capable of more than 20bar pressure (to get up the 200meters or so of vertical lift), and provide whatever flow rate per minute/per hour or whatever to fill your storage tank however often and with however much water to want - which is all about the power needed, but thats what submersible are all about, and I'd have thought its all going to be well within what you can get setup off domestic ac amperages (unless you are wanting to pump something like 500litres a minute at 25bar - things are then going to complicated and expensive!!!). In short: so what if its only a small sub pump that is going to pump something like 5 - 10 litres a minute @ 20plus bar - theres no rush if you have a decent sized storage tank - just let the pump run longer.........

Then you have to run your water piping - schedule 40 or some other thick wall pvc type piping with around 2" - 2,5" max ID will be fine (you ain't going to want to be pumping so much so quickly so that friction loss becomes an issue). Bury it in the ground if you can -will last for ever. PVC piping is cheap as chips in Thailand - the country is one of the worlds biggest manufacturers of the stuff.

Put a check valve in at the bottom and at the top.

A roll of decent diameter ac cabling - bury it long side the water pipe - you may want to thread it through 1" diameter pvc piping to keep the moisture off - won't add much to the overall cost.

..... thats how I would go about things: keep it all as simple as possible, and use local materials and locally avaliable hardware where ever possible - pump brand name options: both Grundfoss or Lorentz will have submersible options off the stock shelf in Thailand that will easily do this job for you - Grundfoss is my personal preference, but thats just a personal opinion - Lorentz is probably just as good.

Lastly - this is a well as opposed to a borehole? ......get some re-bar and weld up a grid to put over the top of the well - and/or weld up a box/tube out of re-bar large enough to hold the submersible in and then maybe even chain it down - doesn't need explaining does it(?).

[Bartman]

one of these... http://www.samui-service.com/SP.htm

Solar Pump into your water tank.

No I dont work there, Don't know the price. I am sure you should be able to find a supplier near you..

[WatersEdge]

Put pump in the water and push to holding tank, and use another pump to push the water up the hill much more efficient.

A technical correction of pump engineering here.

One pump to go the full distance is always more efficient than two pumps to go part way.

The very best pumps built are around 85% efficient.

If you put two of the very best pumps in the world,

your efficiency is 1 x 0.85 x 0.85 => 0.72

That's a 85-72 => 13% increase in energy cost.

If your pump is less than wonderful,

let's say only a 70% efficiency, then it's 1 x 0.70 x 0.70 => 0.49

That's a 70 -49 => 21% increase in energy cost.

The lower the quality of your pump performance curve,

the greater the multiple pump loss will be.

If you have more than two pumps, the effect continues to compound.

1 x 0.85 x 0.85 x 0.85 => 61%

85-61 => 24% Loss

[David006]

Well! Thanks guys excellent info and some very technical stuff there..will locate a suitable pump and use and intermediary tank if unable to push the whole distance. Will get my GPS and work out elevation and distance more accurately. Think a submersible as used for water towers would do the trick though..thanks again..

a little it of rain at the weekend!

david

[David006]

Single phase submersible electric pump will do the job just fine - ac, only because alternating current doesn't loose much power over distance, and the power source is readily avaliable, as are pumps to run off it - or if its a dc submersible pump, at least run ac down to the bottom of the valley, then rectify and regulate it for whatever dc voltage/current is required (most submersible pump manufacturers that supply dc type pumps will be able to offer a ac/dc circuit as part of the package). I've said nothing here about solar - solar panels that are a long way from the house and can't be viewed/covered easily, a) don't tend to function well at all when placed in low down positions on the sides of hills/slopes etc...... the miss half the days sun, and they tend to go walkabout after a while (good chance it'll get nicked unless you can secure it somehow, which usualy means covering it and that leads to them working even less efficiently!), and last but not least, no ways you are going to be able to run solar panel generated dc current downhill 200m plus distance angle, and expect it to work efficiently - you'd to double up on the panel requirement and then also run some enormously thick cable - hel_l knows what it would add to the overall cost(??). I just can't see it been worth it or practical.

You'll need a submersible that is capable of more than 20bar pressure (to get up the 200meters or so of vertical lift), and provide whatever flow rate per minute/per hour or whatever to fill your storage tank however often and with however much water to want - which is all about the power needed, but thats what submersible are all about, and I'd have thought its all going to be well within what you can get setup off domestic ac amperages (unless you are wanting to pump something like 500litres a minute at 25bar - things are then going to complicated and expensive!!!). In short: so what if its only a small sub pump that is going to pump something like 5 - 10 litres a minute @ 20plus bar - theres no rush if you have a decent sized storage tank - just let the pump run longer.........

Then you have to run your water piping - schedule 40 or some other thick wall pvc type piping with around 2" - 2,5" max ID will be fine (you ain't going to want to be pumping so much so quickly so that friction loss becomes an issue). Bury it in the ground if you can -will last for ever. PVC piping is cheap as chips in Thailand - the country is one of the worlds biggest manufacturers of the stuff.

Put a check valve in at the bottom and at the top.

A roll of decent diameter ac cabling - bury it long side the water pipe - you may want to thread it through 1" diameter pvc piping to keep the moisture off - won't add much to the overall cost.

..... thats how I would go about things: keep it all as simple as possible, and use local materials and locally avaliable hardware where ever possible - pump brand name options: both Grundfoss or Lorentz will have submersible options off the stock shelf in Thailand that will easily do this job for you - Grundfoss is my personal preference, but thats just a personal opinion - Lorentz is probably just as good.

Lastly - this is a well as opposed to a borehole? ......get some re-bar and weld up a grid to put over the top of the well - and/or weld up a box/tube out of re-bar large enough to hold the submersible in and then maybe even chain it down - doesn't need explaining does it(?).

Hi ...its a concrete tube well only a few metres deep so all the you good info should solve the problem.

one thing..I already have a half inch pipe running down our road to provide tap at a shed at the bottom of the hill, so I would be able to back feed up that with the introduction of a couple of cocks. Would a submersible tend to blow this pipe? it is just hooked into our tank and does not go through household pressure pump. I would just put a divert pipe up to top of tank. Sped of fill is not an issue. Maybe I will do a "suck it and see".

thx

david

[David006]

Okay guys..we have water.

Used a 2800 baht 350w rotary pump with 80m head ( has a double intake with "jet nozzle " cast iron fitting on bottom..not sure what that does....) and 1inch pipe..( actual pipe length only 150m and head 40m according to GPS.....not a very good initial guesstimate I guess).

Water a bit muddy initially but now clear and filled the second tank ( 1000L) in 20 minutes.

Thanks guys ..happy happy now

regards

david

.....oh and there is a 6" fish living in the well!!!

[WatersEdge]

Glad to hear it works

If you ever want to get better efficiency,

lower energy cost for the same water,

switch to a centrifugal / submersible,

as a jet pump is inherently inefficient.

Jet pumps work by means of friction,

water colliding with water at very high speed,

not a good fundamental operating principle

Centrifugals / Turbines push the water in the right direction,

in the gentlest curvature of the rotor possible.

The point is to pick the water up and push it with minimal disturbance.

Adding as much power from the pump to the water flow,

with as little slippage and chaotic turbulence as possible.

With all this careful design,

the best pumps are still only about 85% efficient.

The other 15% is turned to heat in the water.

Have a look at this link, Page 3,

http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/educati.../pumps372fs.pdf

It says that jet pumps require twice the power of centrifugals.

This link supports that number,

saying jet pumps are 40% efficient.

http://www.keidel.com/mech/pumps-well.htm

Not real sure why Jet Pumps are even sold.

[slapout]

The are sold to be installed on ski/speed boats, don't you see. Could not help myself, have a good weekend.

[WatersEdge]

Good Point slapout,

The jet ski uses the same jet pump principle as propulsion,

jet water (high pressure high speed) friction

against the stationary water of the lake

pushes the jet ski forward entirely by "inefficiency".

In this case, the intent is to maximize friction,

so the "efficiency" is reversed.

Ha, If you get in a pinch,

your jet ski would make a great water pump for the farm,

because it's a very efficient pump,

likely an axial flow turbine

Now that would raise some eyebrows...

the farmer sitting on his stylish shiny water pump

Should you ever need a shallow draft boat propulsion method,

where you don't want a prop hitting obstacles,

rig a guided nozzle powered by a large onboard pump.

My how a thread gets sidetracked...

A wise application for a jet pump,

is a suction dredge,

which pulls mud, dirt and gravel from the bottom of the body of water,

to move it elsewhere.

If you pull all that dirt material through a standard pump,

it causes severe abrasion problems,

whereas if you pull it through a jet,

it only wears on the nozzle, which can be cheaply replaced.

These are much larger than the household jet pump,

and they require serious engine power.

Even so, I have heard that river dredges still use 2 meter diameter pumps,

probably very simple design axial turbines,

built to withstand the abrasion,

with parts that are quickly cheaply replaced.

They have something like 1,200 hp diesels driving them.

[David006]

Think we've gone off at a bit of a tangent..lol

Anyway the pump is centrifugal ( same as a million of 'm you see in stores), the difference on the one I purchased is that on the intake side there are two pipes one is 1.25" and the other is 1"...there was a diagram showing water intake being recirculated up one and down the other pipe and through the nozzle inside a cast steel ( about 2kg!) u shaped unit..on the bottom of which has the non return valve and filter which all sits down in the well. Maybe this a a jet pump of sorts ? The guy in the shop seemed to think it was to increase the intake head as the diagram showed the unit inside a bore hole size well..

Anyway it works in my concrete tube well so..happy happy..

thanks again

david

okay the pic on right shows the double intake thingy I have...the pump is centifugal though

Edited March 22, 2010 by David006

[WatersEdge]

It's a jet pump.

You can save half your power bill with centrifugal.

But it's probably a small power bill,

so doesn't much matter in this application.

In a large application it would definitely matter.

[Artisi]

A "jet"pump is only required if the water level is more than 6-7 metres below the pump inlet.

Operating a jet pump where it is not needed is just a waste of energy (read money spent on electricity)

The efficiency of the "jet "component is probably only 25 -30% at best while the centrifugal impeller on a pump of this size is at best maybe 50 - 55% efficient and is dependant where on its curve you are operating - if operating at high head low flow then maybe you are down to 25% efficiency and including the low efficiency for the "jet"component then overall you are maybe at best operating at or below 10% overall efficiencyof the pump unit. You are therefore wasting 90% of the power that is being supplied to the pump, so for every unit of power you pay for you only getting 10% worth of work done.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Artisi