Nationalism, Its Irrational, Isn't It?

[HS Mauberley]

I think it's actually Americans are peculiarly criticized for being from their country, in a way that most others aren't.

I half agree. American’s do get criticized for being American in a way that other nationalities don’t. However, Americans also have a marked tendency to confuse criticism of America as a state with criticism of Americans as a people and that’s because American nationalism is rather different to other forms of nationalism. And clearly America is always to be criticized in a way which other countries aren’t – or at least won’t be for the next 20-odd years, until China climbs to the top of the shitpile.

So, supporting one's sports team makes sense; supporting one's country doesn't?

That’s not my point (though limiting your nationalism to supporting a national sports team has significantly fewer serious consequences than more devout nationalisms). I was pointing out that the fact that most people cheer for their national football team – or look at the medal table in the Olympics, or whatever it is – doesn’t mean that all countries are equally nationalistic.

[HS Mauberley]

I think nationalism has a kind of rational aspect to it in that it makes sense for groups of people (which is what nations are) to have pride in the way they do things in order for that particular 'way' to thrive and be successful

The problem with that is that what you have in common within a nation - aside from (sometimes) the obvious linguistic links - is more often a product of nationalism than its cause. I'm a southern, middle class, middle-aged, public school educated English man. What do I have in common with a teenage girl from an (ex) pit village up north? Nothing meaningful but if I go to any European capital, I'll find people who don't speak English but with whom I have infinitely greater cultural commonality.

[OriginalPoster]

I think it's actually Americans are peculiarly criticized for being from their country, in a way that most others aren't.

I half agree. American's do get criticized for being American in a way that other nationalities don't. However, Americans also have a marked tendency to confuse criticism of America as a state with criticism of Americans as a people and that's because American nationalism is rather different to other forms of nationalism. And clearly America is always to be criticized in a way which other countries aren't – or at least won't be for the next 20-odd years, until China climbs to the top of the shitpile.

Although they say that they do, I don't think that Europeans really make the distinction between disliking America as a state and disliking American people in generally. Definitely I am treated 100% better by Europeans now that Obama is in office and yet I haven't changed and neither have the vast majority of the 300+ million people in the US. Basically when someone starts haranguing at me for no reason other than that I'm an American, I take it personally - I don't think that it's a sign that Eurpoeans are more politcally astute than us I think that it's bad behavior and a sign that Eurpopeans are not as sophisticated as they think that they are.

[kandahar]

kandahar

you sound like a soldier, are you? Maybe Kandahar in Afghanistan?

If we all want to keep this planet a little longer then nationalism has no place. Nationalism comes from brainwash-tactics starting with sport, gladiators in the 21st century.

If they world wants to keep up with the new realities we have to break dividing walls and open up. But there is no place for nationalism or radical religions etc..

Hey elcent. Nice to see your contribution here.

Do you really believe the thing you write about? If so, help me to understand it because I don't. If the world becomes one society, one nation, one whatever it is that you write about, with our reasons for national pride vanquished by a greater cause, which nation's principles will it be based on? Which non-radical religion will be "our" religion? Lots to choose from. Your idea of a radical religion is probably at odds with the choice of millions of others out there and I can guarantee that some of those don't think their religion is radical; it is "the" religion for anyone with any sense at all The same goes for governments styles. Which one are we stuck with in the new world order?

You're thinking pretty far in the future, as near as I can tell and therefore, I'll go a bit further. What happens if folks arrive from another planet and THEY think there is only one way of doing things in the universe? Do we have a planetary (earth) pride that will be the impetus for us to fight for our survival or do we go with the one for all and all for one thing?

Your wish a good wish, elcent. In a perfect world, it would work. But we aren't there and neither you nor I will live to see it. We live in these times and I can only speak of what is happening now.

elcent, you cannot hear the tone that these words are written in. Maybe the words sound harsh or hateful. They aren't. They are written in a soft tone, with more questions implied than are actually represented in the font you are looking at. Please let me know how you see this thing. Nobody has ever explained it to me in a way that made any sense at all in a real world.

kandahar

[dutchguest]

I think, generally speaking, Thais are more nationalistic then most westerners. A.o. religion, kingship and other feudal remnants are playing a more important role in the thinking and identification with the nation.

Generally speaking: the more developed a nation the more globally thinking. Historically the development goes from identification with smaller units to bigger: first tribal organisation, then city-states, then national states. Now all kind of associations between states make national states less important and we will end with one world. Also through new technology, airplanes, television, internet the developments go very fast at the moment and people all over the world get a broader view of the world and begin thinking more globally.

(On a personal level the development is the same: first there is only the mother, then the rest of the family, neighbours, schools, the own society, the whole world).

So i.m.o. questions of good or bad, rational or irrational are not so relevant. Just take things as they are.

[Travel2003]

I dont see any problem with people being extremely proud of their country and culture, and at the same time being concerned about the future of their culture, if the country is being over run with immigrants who have all the rights their new home country can offer. But at the same time no requirements are given to the immigrants in regards to how they should integrate into their new home land.

Of course, this does not mean the people should disrespect their new fellow country men.

So I guess a light version of Nationalism is ok.

One extreme case is the Fiji Islands, where the original culture can be in danger of being wiped out soon, as the immigrants are already in a majority of the country.

I kind of understand the etnic "Fijians" (is that a word??).

[Birdman]

It is absolute negative. If the stronger one would help the weaker one, nationalism would be unknown in this world.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Birdman

[elcent]

Patriotism

Whenever you hear a man speak of his love for his country, it is a sign that he he expects too be paid for it.

H L Mencken

Religion

Schoolmaster: Now you're sure you've got the Catechism all buttoned-up Foster?

Foster. I'm still a bit hairy about the Trinity, sir.

Schoolmaster: Three in one, one in three, perfectly straightforward. Any doubts about that see your maths master.

Alan Bennett

Thanks, I got it. A good one by any means.

[elcent]

kandahar

you sound like a soldier, are you? Maybe Kandahar in Afghanistan?

If we all want to keep this planet a little longer then nationalism has no place. Nationalism comes from brainwash-tactics starting with sport, gladiators in the 21st century.

If they world wants to keep up with the new realities we have to break dividing walls and open up. But there is no place for nationalism or radical religions etc..

Hey elcent. Nice to see your contribution here.

Do you really believe the thing you write about? If so, help me to understand it because I don't. If the world becomes one society, one nation, one whatever it is that you write about, with our reasons for national pride vanquished by a greater cause, which nation's principles will it be based on? Which non-radical religion will be "our" religion? Lots to choose from. Your idea of a radical religion is probably at odds with the choice of millions of others out there and I can guarantee that some of those don't think their religion is radical; it is "the" religion for anyone with any sense at all The same goes for governments styles. Which one are we stuck with in the new world order?

You're thinking pretty far in the future, as near as I can tell and therefore, I'll go a bit further. What happens if folks arrive from another planet and THEY think there is only one way of doing things in the universe? Do we have a planetary (earth) pride that will be the impetus for us to fight for our survival or do we go with the one for all and all for one thing?

Your wish a good wish, elcent. In a perfect world, it would work. But we aren't there and neither you nor I will live to see it. We live in these times and I can only speak of what is happening now.

elcent, you cannot hear the tone that these words are written in. Maybe the words sound harsh or hateful. They aren't. They are written in a soft tone, with more questions implied than are actually represented in the font you are looking at. Please let me know how you see this thing. Nobody has ever explained it to me in a way that made any sense at all in a real world.

kandahar

Thanks for your reply and my apologies for not being diplomatically correct at all times.

Yes, I do believe it and I know it and it all depends of how we create it. We all should act as if it is already in force.

The UN can't handle it. And we shouldn't wait until this golden opportunity will be hijacked by large corporations and dangerous government policies. It has to start from the grassroots up to the top with good examples for proof.

This is sitting in my mind for over 13 years and now I have prepared (still under progress) a platform to test it in the cyber world first. This project will give us a clear idea of what works and what doesn't.

You can PM me if you want.

Great minds, people with NGO experience, programmers and participants are welcome.

Edited March 6, 2010 by elcent

[notime]

Nationalism has no place in this age of the global world. There is only one planet Earth, it belongs to all of us.

Nice sentiment.

A very rare one amongst expats in Thailand though.

I disagree with this. I think expats are more likely than anyone to feel being global citizens due to their experiences. I certainly feel this way. We are all humans first, citizens of some countries second so the whole Earth should belong to us. But try to mention this to an average Thai. You will spend the first 5 minutes explaining Earth. And then they will loose their interest since their attention span is somewhere between 3-5 minutes max.

"Americans think their country is the best.

Chinese think their country is the best.

Thais think their country is the best.

Turks think their country is the best.

Iranians think their country is the best.

Brazilians think their country is the best.

French think their country is the best.

Russians think their country is the best."

That is rather simple to understand: America is the best for Americans, China for Chinese, Thailand for Thais and so on. It's all about the cultural baggage that we grow up with. The food we like to eat, the type of the jokes we laugh at, the way we like to communicate in our mother tongue. But nationalism although rational is all BAD. We can still love the place and the culture we are from, that's patriotism, but nationalism only clouds our minds and prevents us from enjoying so much in other cultures and places. Let's give up nationalism once for all and start enjoying our single common planet and infinite variety of cultures.

[HS Mauberley]

We are all humans first, citizens of some countries second so the whole Earth should belong to us. But try to mention this to an average Thai. You will spend the first 5 minutes explaining Earth. And then they will loose their interest since their attention span is somewhere between 3-5 minutes max.

So, we're all humans first. Except for Thais, who are untermenschen. Yes, expats are truly citizens of the world, aren't they. Still, perhaps nationalism is in fact preferable to straight-forward racism.

[doggie888888]

Reading some of the posts, I can't help but think of an often related word i.e. patriotism. Is there a difference between nationalism and patriotism?

By the way, I can't say nationalism, of the variety of saying my country is the best, is irrational...isn't it a bit like saying I like beef best only to be told by someone else I am irrational? Nationalism of the Nazi sort however is not only irrational but also downright evil. So I guess I'd say not all forms of nationalism are irrational.

[kandahar]

Reading some of the posts, I can't help but think of an often related word i.e. patriotism. Is there a difference between nationalism and patriotism?

By the way, I can't say nationalism, of the variety of saying my country is the best, is irrational...isn't it a bit like saying I like beef best only to be told by someone else I am irrational? Nationalism of the Nazi sort however is not only irrational but also downright evil. So I guess I'd say not all forms of nationalism are irrational.

Nazi is of course a political party. And while that political party did hijack a nation, (and many other nations) many within that nation believed in the nation but not the party or the mission of the party. When the party was disbanded, the nationalism was greatly subdued for obvious reasons. In meeting residents of that country these days, I can tell you that nationalism exists very strongly today, even though it is not displayed as readily with those residents as it is from people in other countries. It is getting stronger and that is a good thing for those people.

Nationalism vs. patriotism- Nationalism is a form of patriotism but is a degree or two more fanatical, depending on the most recent events that tend to increase or decrease the excitement and fervor of the participants. It CAN become dangerous if it goes too far, just as apathy can become dangerous if it goes too far, taking the country in the opposite direction.

Nationalism in itself isn't a thing to worry about; it is when a nation is hijacked by greedy or power-hungry people that nationalism itself is hijacked and used as a tool to bend the people in the direction the bad people wish them to go. Curiously enough, history shows that fanatical levels of patriotism that lead to the destruction of that country are often brought about by serious bouts of apathy in that country beforehand. The people, in their apathy, are much more susceptible to criminal elements that offer a way out, a way up and a promise to a better world. So, maintain your pride in your country. Nationalism is the preventive measure that keeps your country the way it is, which YOU know to better than the other countries out there. It is the rational thing to do.

[notime]

We are all humans first, citizens of some countries second so the whole Earth should belong to us. But try to mention this to an average Thai. You will spend the first 5 minutes explaining Earth. And then they will loose their interest since their attention span is somewhere between 3-5 minutes max.

So, we're all humans first. Except for Thais, who are untermenschen. Yes, expats are truly citizens of the world, aren't they. Still, perhaps nationalism is in fact preferable to straight-forward racism.

Oh please .. don't misconstrue what I was about. Where did I say Thais are sub-humans?

That most of them (average Thai) are poorly educated and don't like to put effort into understanding something (short attention span) is a cultural generalisation and nothing related to their humanity. I would be exactly like that if I was born at some obscure place in this country and attended local schools. The blame is squarely on the education system in here that inplants fear of teachers and learning (failing) rather than curiosity and desire to know.

[HS Mauberley]

Hey, if you want to be a racist, don't hide out. Be pointy-hatted and proud. After all, you're on Thaivisa - the home of bigotry and stupidity.

[notime]

Hey, if you want to be a racist, don't hide out. Be pointy-hatted and proud. After all, you're on Thaivisa - the home of bigotry and stupidity.

You are not only offending me but Thaivisa forums including all of its users that you are one as well. I must partially agree with you than: the stupidity can be found on Thaivisa