Buddhist Monks Protesting

[khaowong1]

of course it hasn't came about yet, it's only a rumor, but what does everyone think about Buddhist monks marching and protesting?

[mic6ard]

they are breaking all rules about ignoring the problems outside. Monks, too me, are suppose to reflect the calming influence to the people and not joining in the riot. It's like any christian countries when priests, and others of the clergy make comment that has nothing to do with religion. Just soo wrong on many levels. Make me wonders, if they are actual monks or just dressed up as one.

[gotlost]

they are breaking all rules about ignoring the problems outside. Monks, too me, are suppose to reflect the calming influence to the people and not joining in the riot. It's like any christian countries when priests, and others of the clergy make comment that has nothing to do with religion. Just soo wrong on many levels. Make me wonders, if they are actual monks or just dressed up as one.

See if there wearing tennis shoes that should tell you.

[nakachalet]

no wonder....

in recent weeks, there were unusual amount of nike tennis shoes (ของปลอม.... ), jogging shoes, cross-training shoes sale at ja-tuk-juck....

[phetaroi]

I think back to the Vietnam War and the images of Buddhist monks setting themselves afire. Useless. I can see no justification.

I think back a much shorter period of time to the monks protesting in Burma, and I admired that.

I just don't think it's an easy question.

[Krungbin]

I think back to the Vietnam War and the images of Buddhist monks setting themselves afire. Useless. I can see no justification.

I think back a much shorter period of time to the monks protesting in Burma, and I admired that.

I just don't think it's an easy question.

Sure, I agree with you, it is not an easy question.

But I nonetheless believe that the Clergy (whatever religion) and/or its representatives should stay out of it.

I strongly suspect that, in this case, the monks are being used as a deterrent to whatever "force" the government might be willing to use to put an end to whatever "unrest" there might be...

[Trickcyclist]

Vietnam-protest, demos and self immolation in 60.s..pity nobody listened.

Dali Lama and followers on permanent protest since invasion of Tibet in 60.s.

Myanmar protests against junta

etc??

they are breaking all rules about ignoring the problems outside. Monks, too me, are suppose to reflect the calming influence to the people and not joining in the riot. It's like any christian countries when priests, and others of the clergy make comment that has nothing to do with religion. Just soo wrong on many levels. Make me wonders, if they are actual monks or just dressed up as one.

[sabaijai]

It's only monks from Wat Dhammakaya and their branch temples that are purportedly prepared to join. These temples are backed by the same 'new money; upper class as TRT, Thaksin etc.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/20-000-Monks...rt-t344878.html

[Xangsamhua]

Birds of a feather .... ?

In the case of Phra Dhammachayo, the abbot of Dhammakaya – one of the biggest

Buddhist temples in Thailand – was charged for alleged fraud, corruption and the

embezzlement of temple property. The abbot was later released free on bail. After his

release, he temporarily stepped down from his clerical duties.

http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/ugsoc/his/Journa...nd_Scandals.pdf

Outspoken monk Phra Phayom Kalayano, abbot of Wat Suan Kaew temple in Nonthaburi, said it is difficult to act against Wat Dharmakaya because its followers include influential and prominent people.

If the prosecution had gone all the way with the case, it could have provoked the temple's followers into violent responses, he said.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Court-S...aka-t80299.html

In the other corner, Santi Asoke lay followers openly lent their support to the PAD rallies at Government House, but didn't involve the clergy, except for Samana (Than) Chan, who gave Dhamma talks from the stage during quiet times.

[jdinasia]

Ummmm for those that say that standing up for human rights is wrong (by Buddhist monks) could you please tell me what precept that violates?

Monks are restrained in many ways in how they act in public but taking a stand for what they see as wrong is not proscribed. The can't get behind a microphone and scream but they can be there looking at the ground.

[Xangsamhua]

Ummmm for those that say that standing up for human rights is wrong (by Buddhist monks) could you please tell me what precept that violates?

Monks are restrained in many ways in how they act in public but taking a stand for what they see as wrong is not proscribed. The can't get behind a microphone and scream but they can be there looking at the ground.

Good question/point, JD.

With Thich Nhat Hanh's approach to "engaged Buddhism" in mind, I would think standing up for human rights and compassion as a social responsibility is proper for a Buddhist practitioner. However, taking sides in a highly contentious dispute could result from and lead to wrong view in oneself and others.

TNH and his monks and nuns in Vietnam did not side with either the Communists or the anti-Communists (and were disliked by both sides as a result), but they did what they could to care for those who suffered from the war and called for both sides to withdraw from the path of violence.

[nakachalet]

JdInAsia, XangSumHua et al --

the thai monks' duties, in general, include praying and instructing followers of the main teaching of buddha which inludes peace and mercy for all,

including animals, even mosquitos which should not be swatted nor killed nor exterminated in any shape or form.... be it chemical or other means....

for any monk or num to work himself/herself up to get involved in politics is already a violation of the principle of monkhood/nunhood....

if and when any monk or nun feels any social injustice.... these robbed individuals could express their discontent verbally or in a written form without much emotion....

to show disruptive emotion and provocative mood in public is not becoming of monkhood nor nunhood....

if any monk or nun feels the personal need to express personal favor or personal involvement in political....

there will be no one to deter or dissuade this invididual.... but then.... the yellow rob should be shed first, so as not to embarrass and disgrace the peaceful religion....

even setting oneself ablazed.... is that individual's personal choice....

but let it not be mistaken.... that is not within the sphere of budhda's teaching at all....

Edited March 8, 2010 by nakachalet

[jdinasia]

Nakachalet---

I don't see it the same way at all. I read through the precepts again tonight and can't find ANY that merely showing up in support of what a monk might reasonably consider "right" appears to violate.

(I am not talking about the specifics of THIS situation but of standing up for human rights, compassion, etc!) They must be mindful of the actions and words etc but showing up seems not to be proscribed at all.

[nakachalet]

Nakachalet---

I don't see it the same way at all. I read through the precepts again tonight and can't find ANY that merely showing up in support of what a monk might reasonably consider "right" appears to violate.

(I am not talking about the specifics of THIS situation but of standing up for human rights, compassion, etc!) They must be mindful of the actions and words etc but showing up seems not to be proscribed at all.

YOME...JdInAsia

since you've read certain buddha's precepts already....

yome should have a very good understanding of the main teaching....

which promotes peaceful coexisting between humans AS WELL AS between and among humans and animals....

to act individually or collectively with the intention to malice and/or provoke anger, discontent or even disharmony between or among monks, nuns or among yomes themselves.... is strickly yomes' ways (not monk's or nun's way).... and definitely not originally included in buddha's teaching....

[phetaroi]

...

With Thich Nhat Hanh's approach to "engaged Buddhism" in mind, I would think standing up for human rights and compassion as a social responsibility is proper for a Buddhist practitioner. However, taking sides in a highly contentious dispute could result from and lead to wrong view in oneself and others.

...

Well, it's pretty interesting and pretty involved. For example, on the one hand, a monk does not give up his Thai citizenship when he becomes a monk. On the other hand, your point above...food for thought. But saying that something could lead to wrong view...hmmm, where does that stop? Should a monk not walk down a street where there's a restaurant because he could be tempted to eat a late dinner? Should a monk not minister to lay women because he could be tempted to stray from celibacy?

I am reminded of the Kipling verse: "IF you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs..."

[phetaroi]

...

the thai monks' duties, in general, include praying and instructing followers of the main teaching of buddha which inludes peace and mercy for all,

including animals, even mosquitos which should not be swatted nor killed nor exterminated in any shape or form.... be it chemical or other means....

for any monk or num to work himself/herself up to get involved in politics is already a violation of the principle of monkhood/nunhood....

if and when any monk or nun feels any social injustice.... these robbed individuals could express their discontent verbally or in a written form without much emotion....

to show disruptive emotion and provocative mood in public is not becoming of monkhood nor nunhood....

if any monk or nun feels the personal need to express personal favor or personal involvement in political....

there will be no one to deter or dissuade this invididual.... but then.... the yellow rob should be shed first, so as not to embarrass and disgrace the peaceful religion....

even setting oneself ablazed.... is that individual's personal choice....

but let it not be mistaken.... that is not within the sphere of budhda's teaching at all....

The problem I have with your post is that you state it is fact, when it is really opinion. Or do you have some citations?

[Xangsamhua]

...

With Thich Nhat Hanh's approach to "engaged Buddhism" in mind, I would think standing up for human rights and compassion as a social responsibility is proper for a Buddhist practitioner. However, taking sides in a highly contentious dispute could result from and lead to wrong view in oneself and others.

...

Well, it's pretty interesting and pretty involved. For example, on the one hand, a monk does not give up his Thai citizenship when he becomes a monk. On the other hand, your point above...food for thought. But saying that something could lead to wrong view...hmmm, where does that stop? Should a monk not walk down a street where there's a restaurant because he could be tempted to eat a late dinner? Should a monk not minister to lay women because he could be tempted to stray from celibacy?

I am reminded of the Kipling verse: "IF you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs..."

More good points. Food for thought. (I'm off to work, but will think about these things.) There's always a danger though, isn't there, in taking things to their logical conclusion?

Edited March 8, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[camerata]

Well, it's pretty interesting and pretty involved. For example, on the one hand, a monk does not give up his Thai citizenship when he becomes a monk.

But a Thai monk does give up his right to vote. I think this is because he is supposed to be above politics. The Buddha specifically told monks not to talk about politics and many other subjects not concerned with the Dhamma:

"Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."

"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not."

— AN 10.69

[phetaroi]

Well, it's pretty interesting and pretty involved. For example, on the one hand, a monk does not give up his Thai citizenship when he becomes a monk.

But a Thai monk does give up his right to vote. I think this is because he is supposed to be above politics. The Buddha specifically told monks not to talk about politics and many other subjects not concerned with the Dhamma:

"Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."

"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not."

— AN 10.69

Where online can I find the exact quotation?

[camerata]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/conversation.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/...vaca/index.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...0.069.than.html

[phetaroi]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/conversation.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/...vaca/index.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...0.069.than.html

So, using that passage: ""There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects.", if a monk said to another monk, "It is hot today," he'd be breaking his vows?

[camerata]

These are not vows, they are advice on the right way to reach nibbana. Basically, all that stuff comes under the "idle gossip" section of Wrong Speech. You won't make much progress if you sit around making comments about the weather - or politics.

[phetaroi]

These are not vows, they are advice on the right way to reach nibbana. Basically, all that stuff comes under the "idle gossip" section of Wrong Speech. You won't make much progress if you sit around making comments about the weather - or politics.

While it may seem as if I am being picky here, I am just trying to get to the heart of the matter.

Are you saying that what the Buddha supposedly said is "advice" (your word), rather than "rules"?

To be honest, this difference would put an entirely different light on many, if not most, of the conversations we have in this forum. It changes Buddhism from "Buddha said that..." to "Buddha led us in finding the truth by saying that...".

Edited March 10, 2010 by phetaroi

[camerata]

Are you saying that what the Buddha supposedly said is "advice" (your word), rather than "rules"?

In the case of politics, it was advice about the ideal topics for discussion among monks who were aiming at nibbana. It was not one of the 227 precepts that must be observed by monks. The suttas and the Noble Eightfold Path are the advice, the method for reaching the goal, and the 227 precepts are the "rules" for monks.

[khaowong1]

These are not vows, they are advice on the right way to reach nibbana. Basically, all that stuff comes under the "idle gossip" section of Wrong Speech. You won't make much progress if you sit around making comments about the weather - or politics.

Sadhu

[khaowong1]

Are you saying that what the Buddha supposedly said is "advice" (your word), rather than "rules"?

In the case of politics, it was advice about the ideal topics for discussion among monks who were aiming at nibbana. It was not one of the 227 precepts that must be observed by monks. The suttas and the Noble Eightfold Path are the advice, the method for reaching the goal, and the 227 precepts are the "rules" for monks.

I am really glad you jumped in here on this topic Camerata, thank you..

[camerata]

These are not vows, they are advice on the right way to reach nibbana. Basically, all that stuff comes under the "idle gossip" section of Wrong Speech. You won't make much progress if you sit around making comments about the weather - or politics.

Sadhu

I recommend the biography of Ajahn Man to anyone interested in this. Ajahn Man could read minds, so his monks were all terrified that an errant thought would earn them some severe criticism. It wasn't just that you couldn't engage in idle talk, you couldn't engage in idle thoughts either.