The 2010 Formula One Season

[carmine]

I have lost a great deal of faith and interest in F1 in recent times and Ferrari epitomine the reason why. I like to watch competive racing, not an orchestrated result. End of. Apart from flagrently breaking to rules their action undermine the credibility of the sport.

[rixalex]

It was not the Ferrari team that wanted Massa to slow down. It did not matter to them in the slightest whether Massa or Alonso came first. It was Alonso whining to the pit lane to TELL Massa to move over as he could not overtake him legally that makes him responsible for breaking the rules. I listened to Alonso try to say that it was the teams decision to make him move over <deleted> Just more lies from someone who has form for this type of behaviour.

Yes it was Alonso who was putting pressure on team management to make Massa get out of his way, but they could have / should have simply told him to not do anything rash - to stay with Massa and if possible pass cleanly - if not to stay where he was. They didn't. They let Alonso have his way. The team are as much to blame as Alonso, as is Massa too - they all played their part - although obviously Alonso was the main beneficiary of it all.

[b19bry]

I would actually like to see Webber win but I do think Hamilton is a very good racer in a very average car this season.

The Mclaren has actually been the second best car outside the Red Bulls for most of the season.

I seem to be missing something on the finishing front. can you explain to me how Ferrari got an extra 7 points for Alonso finishing ahead of Massa. The way I see it They get points for their cars finishing first and second. It matters not one iota who was first or second to Ferrari but mattered hugely to both Alonso and Massa.

Yes you are missing the fact that by allowing Alonso to win got Ferrari, as a team, an extra 7 points closer to the driver's championship leader than if he had finished 2nd. Massa was already a long way adrift in the points and wasn't in a position to do that for the team. The driver's championship is important to the team and it matters much more than an iota to them.

[b19bry]

Which rule did Alonso break? Please clarify, perhaps quote the FIA rule. He saw the car in front of him slowing down and overtook, what's wrong with that? Remember he did not hear the radio between Massa and the pits. Drivers make mistakes, cars have problems ...

You cannot enforce the ban on team tactics by listening to the radio messages. Example: Pit to driver: "Mixture 27, mixture 27". It's a coded message and only the race engineer and the driver know what it means. How will you prevent that? You cannot and that's the whole point.

Very well said dominique, totally agree, the rule needs to be scrubbed. It just means the teams get more 'creative' about team orders rather than them being out in the open.

[b19bry]

I have lost a great deal of faith and interest in F1 in recent times and Ferrari epitomine the reason why. I like to watch competive racing, not an orchestrated result. End of. Apart from flagrently breaking to rules their action undermine the credibility of the sport.

What are you blathering on about......... 'recent times' indeed.

This sort of thing has been happening since F1 started and drivers have won championships 'orchestrated' on team orders. It's not only Ferrari who've done this.

[H2oDunc]

I would actually like to see Webber win but I do think Hamilton is a very good racer in a very average car this season.

The Mclaren has actually been the second best car outside the Red Bulls for most of the season.

I seem to be missing something on the finishing front. can you explain to me how Ferrari got an extra 7 points for Alonso finishing ahead of Massa. The way I see it They get points for their cars finishing first and second. It matters not one iota who was first or second to Ferrari but mattered hugely to both Alonso and Massa.

Yes you are missing the fact that by allowing Alonso to win got Ferrari, as a team, an extra 7 points closer to the driver's championship leader than if he had finished 2nd. Massa was already a long way adrift in the points and wasn't in a position to do that for the team. The driver's championship is important to the team and it matters much more than an iota to them.

I think you will find that Ferrari as a team compete for the CONSTRUCTORS championship and NOT the DRIVERS championship. As such they got NO benefit from making Massa pull over. The only person to benefit was Alonso. The two are separate so you could have a driver of a team winning the drivers championship yet another team winning the constructors championship. What they did was wrong. They will be punished along with Alonso. They have to accept this then lets just get on with the season. As said I would just like to see them reverse the positions and forget the matter.

[carmine]

I have lost a great deal of faith and interest in F1 in recent times and Ferrari epitomine the reason why. I like to watch competive racing, not an orchestrated result. End of. Apart from flagrently breaking to rules their action undermine the credibility of the sport.

What are you blathering on about......... 'recent times' indeed.

This sort of thing has been happening since F1 started and drivers have won championships 'orchestrated' on team orders. It's not only Ferrari who've done this.

If you took the time to read posts before making rude replies you might notice that I was saying that I have become fed up with F1 in recent times and explaining the reason why. I was'nt suggesting team orders only started happening recently you ........

Edited August 26, 2010 by carmine

[PattayaParent]

I think you will find that Ferrari as a team compete for the CONSTRUCTORS championship and NOT the DRIVERS championship. As such they got NO benefit from making Massa pull over. The only person to benefit was Alonso. The two are separate so you could have a driver of a team winning the drivers championship yet another team winning the constructors championship. What they did was wrong. They will be punished along with Alonso. They have to accept this then lets just get on with the season. As said I would just like to see them reverse the positions and forget the matter.

And thereby REWARD Massa for deliberately breaking the rules?

The team DO get a benefit from their driver winning th championship. Think sponsorship, kudos etc.

[dominique355]

"Let me ask your opinion on this: do you think that the McLaren spygate business was a one off? Or do you believe like many other people do that it was simply the tip of the iceburg and that every year there is information being surrupticiously passed from one team to another by some form or other? I myself believe that is the case. McLaren were just the unlucky ones in that they got caught out. Does that mean the law preventing such activity should be abolished? Of course not. Does that mean McLaren should have been let off without punishment? Certainly not. "

No, I don't think that the MacLaren / Ferrari spygate was a one off. Formula 1 is such a highly competitive sport with so much money involved, spying in one way or another, copying and the like are done routinely. Some copying is legal, some isn't.

Where I have difficulties is that FIA thinks that they are a world of their own and have to make their own laws and enforce them their own way, all with the "excuse" to make the sport more attractive and as of lately, less costly. Well, they have failed miserably. Formula 1 has not become more attractive and not less costly. I think we could have a lengthy discussion about these points.

The point is, over-regulation does not do any good to the sport. There are enough laws and rules in the "normal" world to deal with industrial espionage, copying etc. No need for FIA to make their own rules.

And the other point I tried to make is that if a rule CANNOT be enforced, it should not be rule. That's not same as "a rule that IS NOT enforced, should not be a rule."

I think we all here, who are contribution to this forum, are Formula 1 fans and I also believe we all have a feeling that "the old days" were better, at least in Formula 1. And just as a side note: As of 2013 we will have 4 cylinder engines. Did I get that right? Gee I miss the 12 cylinders' howling!

[b19bry]

I would actually like to see Webber win but I do think Hamilton is a very good racer in a very average car this season.

The Mclaren has actually been the second best car outside the Red Bulls for most of the season.

I seem to be missing something on the finishing front. can you explain to me how Ferrari got an extra 7 points for Alonso finishing ahead of Massa. The way I see it They get points for their cars finishing first and second. It matters not one iota who was first or second to Ferrari but mattered hugely to both Alonso and Massa.

Yes you are missing the fact that by allowing Alonso to win got Ferrari, as a team, an extra 7 points closer to the driver's championship leader than if he had finished 2nd. Massa was already a long way adrift in the points and wasn't in a position to do that for the team. The driver's championship is important to the team and it matters much more than an iota to them.

I think you will find that Ferrari as a team compete for the CONSTRUCTORS championship and NOT the DRIVERS championship. As such they got NO benefit from making Massa pull over. The only person to benefit was Alonso. The two are separate so you could have a driver of a team winning the drivers championship yet another team winning the constructors championship. What they did was wrong. They will be punished along with Alonso. They have to accept this then lets just get on with the season. As said I would just like to see them reverse the positions and forget the matter.

I'm well aware that there are two championships, a 'drivers', and a team. I'm also aware that in certain years a driver from one team will win the 'drivers' while the 'team' goes to another team so no need for the upper-case emphasis. But, and this ia a very big but, the 'blue riband' of those and the one that gains the most publicity is certainly the 'drivers'. Publicity means sponsorship bucks to both team and driver and to suggest that the 'drivers' championship doesn't matter one iota to any team is just a nonsense.

You only have to look back in recent history to see how Ferrari 'assisted' one driver (who had very capable teammates) at earlier stages in the year to multiple 'drivers' championships. Other teams have also done this in the past.

Edited August 26, 2010 by b19bry

[b19bry]

I have lost a great deal of faith and interest in F1 in recent times and Ferrari epitomine the reason why. I like to watch competive racing, not an orchestrated result. End of. Apart from flagrently breaking to rules their action undermine the credibility of the sport.

What are you blathering on about......... 'recent times' indeed.

This sort of thing has been happening since F1 started and drivers have won championships 'orchestrated' on team orders. It's not only Ferrari who've done this.

If you took the time to read posts before making rude replies you might notice that I was saying that I have become fed up with F1 in recent times and explaining the reason why. I was'nt suggesting team orders only started happening recently you ........

Hey don't take my comments too seriously, it's not my intention to be rude.

What I read in your post was that you'd "lost faith and interest in F1 in recent times" citing Ferrari as one of the causes of this. You then go on to say you "like to watch competitive racing not an orchestrated result" which I assumed was another reason why you'd recently become less enchanted with the sport. If that is not the case then I apologise for reading incorrectly.

I'm merely pointing out that this has always happened in F1 and is not a recent development.

[PattayaParent]

I think I now know why Schumacher hates Barrichello so much ~~~ For your info Barrichello is the only driver to beat the STIG in 'Top Gears' star in the reasonable priced car!

see ........ http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/8111984.stm

TBWG

Apaprently just a publicity gimmic according to this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2010/aug/22/top-gear-bbc-stig-memoirs

[F1fanatic]

I think I now know why Schumacher hates Barrichello so much ~~~ For your info Barrichello is the only driver to beat the STIG in 'Top Gears' star in the reasonable priced car!

see ........ http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/8111984.stm

TBWG

Apaprently just a publicity gimmic according to this

http://www.guardian....bc-stig-memoirs

Have to also add that I find it extremely unlikely that Schumacher hates Barrichello..... suspect its the other way around as Reubens believes for some unknown reason that he would have beaten Schumi if he was not considered the second driver .

IMO Ferrari were stupid making it so obvious to Massa to let Alonso pass. I don't think Massa can be blamed for doing so, as he doesn't want to lose his seat in a 'top' team - I've no doubt that Ferrari would have found a way to buy him out if he ignored 'team orders'.

Singapore is irrelevant, NP only admitted what happened LAST season - what were the FIA supposed to do? Change everything for the season before well into the next season?? They were stuffed - they could punish the team, but it was WAY too late to do anything about the WDC result.

Edited August 27, 2010 by F1fanatic

[rixalex]

Have to also add that I find it extremely unlikely that Schumacher hates Barrichello..... suspect its the other way around as Reubens believes for some unknown reason that he would have beaten Schumi if he was not considered the second driver .

I think you are being unfair on Rubens there. The man isn't an idiot. He's aware as anyone else that Schumi was the best when they raced at Ferrari. If Rubens does hate Schumi i don't think it is because he thinks he would have beaten him, i think it is because he thinks he should have been given more of a chance to.

IMO Ferrari were stupid making it so obvious to Massa to let Alonso pass. I don't think Massa can be blamed for doing so, as he doesn't want to lose his seat in a 'top' team - I've no doubt that Ferrari would have found a way to buy him out if he ignored 'team orders'.

Perhaps it's easy to say this, but i think were i Massa i would have ignored what the team were telling him. Massa isn't a rookie. He's not at the beginning of his career - he's near the end. Does he really have that much to lose by ignoring a team order like that? What's the worst they could have done? Make him a number two driver? They've already done that. What does that leave? Sack him? Can you imagine the public support he would have and the damage it would do to the Ferrari name?

Singapore is irrelevant, NP only admitted what happened LAST season - what were the FIA supposed to do? Change everything for the season before well into the next season?? They were stuffed - they could punish the team, but it was WAY too late to do anything about the WDC result.

Deducting the points Renault won that day and taking back an ill-gained winner's medal wouldn't have any great bearing on the final WDC result.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

What's the worst they could have done? Make him a number two driver? They've already done that. What does that leave? Sack him? <snip>

Just have a look at Massa's face at the end of this video:

This is my blocked - by FIA - Youtube video. (It doesn't play in my Firefox, but does in IE ). Get it while it's still there!

Here, you can see and hear:

- the weasel words of David Coulthard talking about the World Cup 'goal line technology' and comparing that to removing 'Team Orders',

- the clear outrage of Eddie Jordan (whose "F" word gets blanked out at 3:02),

- the simple truth of Red Bull’s Christian Horner "It was as clear as 2002 which is why the regulation was brought in",

- the outright lies of the slimebag Stefano Domenicali when told by Eddie Jordan that it was 'team orders in a different guise' (6:01): "No, it is not true"

- and Eddie Jordan's reply: " I think you're <blank again>". (The missing words are probably "full of shìt".)

Enjoy!

[rixalex]

<snip>

What's the worst they could have done? Make him a number two driver? They've already done that. What does that leave? Sack him? <snip>

Just have a look at Massa's face at the end of this video:

This is my blocked - by FIA - Youtube video. (It doesn't play in my Firefox, but does in IE ). Get it while it's still there!

Here, you can see and hear:

- the weasel words of David Coulthard talking about the World Cup 'goal line technology' and comparing that to removing 'Team Orders',

- the clear outrage of Eddie Jordan (whose "F" word gets blanked out at 3:02),

- the simple truth of Red Bull's Christian Horner "It was as clear as 2002 which is why the regulation was brought in",

- the outright lies of the slimebag Stefano Domenicali when told by Eddie Jordan that it was 'team orders in a different guise' (6:01): "No, it is not true"

- and Eddie Jordan's reply: " I think you're <blank again>". (The missing words are probably "full of shìt".)

Enjoy!

Thanks for that. First time i've seen EJ wielding the mic. The man takes no prisoners!

Looking forward now to an exciting qualifying sesh in Spa.

[rixalex]

Don't ever recall seeing such changeable conditions in qualifying.

Well done to Mark.

Lewis i think would have made it on pole had it not been for the extra rainfall, but did great do push up to second in those conditions. His race hinges a lot on the first lap. We know how aggressive he likes to be. I hope he gets the balance right.

Vettel i think will have a strong race. Expect him to make up places quickly.

Ferrari, and especially Alonso, could have a hard day at the office if he doesn't find his way past traffic quickly. Surprised at the qualifying they had, but the weather, as always, makes things a bit of a lottery.

Hoping for a fun race.

[Mosha]

Not forgetting Slater as the checkered flag waves...."The McLarens aren't going to improve, and another brilliant lap from Hamilton." Slater please shut up.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Mosha

[Mosha]

What a race. A couple of comments I had a problem with. However Gary Anderson 's putting Alonso's spin down to inexperience. Also how long a learnining curve are Slater et al allowing Vettel. When he got the puncture, I thought Som nam na.

[WarpSpeed]

Not forgetting Slater as the checkered flag waves...."The McLarens aren't going to improve, and another brilliant lap from Hamilton." Slater please shut up.

I especially enjoy how he is constantly trying to be dramatic and sensational in saying how they are "on the limit" during qualifying sessions and yet they always seem to find another limit as they get faster each session and usually it's several seconds faster then the previous ones .. Christ! I wish he'd find something else to say it's really beginning to grate my nerves..

Good video after the race Jetset I wish we got that sort of commentary and post-race report following instead of Slater and Marsh in studios, though Marsh at least has some good points and observations..

I like how Domenicali is telling Eddie how he has been in F1 long enough to know that it isn't true that it was team orders. More like Eddie's been in F1 long enough to know that's exactly what it was irrefutably..

From a drivers point of view if I heard that as the leading driver in the race I'd be very tempted to tell them if he's faster then getting by should be no problem.

Now it's all a moot point as Fernando has thrown away his Championship bid and all it did was deprive Felipe of a legitimate win, prize and any bonus monies that go along with that..

Edited August 29, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Also how long a learnining curve are Slater et al allowing Vettel. When he got the puncture, I thought Som nam na.

He's the Schumacher wunderkind successor don't ya know?

[PattayaParent]

Nice to see Kubica back on the podium.

Obviously the favourite to get their 'rookie' Drivers Championship is Vettel (but not this year), but I think Kubica and Nico Rosberg will be up there in the future too and if Vettel doesn't learn to keep his composure could even make it before him.

Looking forward to both of them getting their first race win.

[PattayaParent]

Perhaps it's easy to say this, but i think were i Massa i would have ignored what the team were telling him. Massa isn't a rookie. He's not at the beginning of his career - he's near the end. Does he really have that much to lose by ignoring a team order like that? What's the worst they could have done? Make him a number two driver? They've already done that. What does that leave? Sack him? Can you imagine the public support he would have and the damage it would do to the Ferrari name?

I thought Massa was already on his way out of Ferrari? Didn't they offer Kubica the seat for next year but he turned it down to stay with Renault?

[rixalex]

Well, a good day for Lewis and Mark.

Could have all though gone terribly pear-shaped with their decisions to stay out an extra lap when the rain started to fall. Seemed daft.

Concerning the incident with Vettel and Button, whilst one feels terribly sorry for Button - and isn't it always the way that the driver who didn't cause the accident gets the worse damage - i must admit i was surprised that Vettel was penalised. I felt that it was simply a driving error that resulted from the track getting slippery; not the result of driving dangerously. Racing accidents happen. Are we now to have penalties for every accident? Was Liuzzi penalized for puncturing Vettel's tyre? Not as far as i know.

[Miiyai46]

Well, a good day for Lewis and Mark.

Could have all though gone terribly pear-shaped with their decisions to stay out an extra lap when the rain started to fall. Seemed daft.

Concerning the incident with Vettel and Button, whilst one feels terribly sorry for Button - and isn't it always the way that the driver who didn't cause the accident gets the worse damage - i must admit i was surprised that Vettel was penalised. I felt that it was simply a driving error that resulted from the track getting slippery; not the result of driving dangerously. Racing accidents happen. Are we now to have penalties for every accident? Was Liuzzi penalized for puncturing Vettel's tyre? Not as far as i know.

Completely agree with you. Vettel should have not been penalized, don't we want more overtaking manoeuvres in F1.....drivers must take risks and Vettel did it. This shows us once again how incompetent the FIA is.

Great race by Lewis but he was really lucky to avoid the barrier before changing to intermediate tires.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Great race by Lewis but he was really lucky to avoid the barrier before changing to intermediate tires.

I believe another driver went off at the exact same place and did the exact same thing - slid sideways up to the barrier, missed it and continued back on the track.

Hard luck Alonso.

phhht!

[rixalex]

Great race by Lewis but he was really lucky to avoid the barrier before changing to intermediate tires.

I was having flash backs of China when he stayed out needlessly on slicks and ended up sliding off coming into the pits, effectively thowing away winning the title in his maiden season.

Going back to Spa - as the rain started to fall and he struggled to make the chicance just before the pit-lane, what on earth made him and the team decide to stay out for one more lap i have no idea? Had Webber and/or Kubica dived in, as they too surely were mad not to, the race win would have been denied him. Only so many times you can get away with making these sorts of mistakes. Just ask Alonso (sliding off - end of race), Webber (terrible start - losing him the likely win), Vettel (crashing into Button - ending up pointless) and Kubica (messing up his pit-stop - denying him second).

[yermanee]

I was having flash backs of China when he stayed out needlessly on slicks and ended up sliding off coming into the pits

And I was having flash backs to Spa 1998 where Coulthard (McLaren) found it necessary to brake on the racing line in a corner to allow a certain German driver to drive over him.

Funny how history repeats itself. Pffffffffffew indeed.

[rixalex]

I was having flash backs of China when he stayed out needlessly on slicks and ended up sliding off coming into the pits

And I was having flash backs to Spa 1998 where Coulthard (McLaren) found it necessary to brake on the racing line in a corner to allow a certain German driver to drive over him.

Funny how history repeats itself. Pffffffffffew indeed.

98 was the year i spent cut off from civilisation, far far away from F1, so i had to google that incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLGqedydP74

An unfortunate accident without a doubt, but Schumi's reaction says a lot about the man - nothing we didn't already know however...

[yermanee]

I was having flash backs of China when he stayed out needlessly on slicks and ended up sliding off coming into the pits

And I was having flash backs to Spa 1998 where Coulthard (McLaren) found it necessary to brake on the racing line in a corner to allow a certain German driver to drive over him.

Funny how history repeats itself. Pffffffffffew indeed.

98 was the year i spent cut off from civilisation, far far away from F1, so i had to google that incident:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kLGqedydP74

An unfortunate accident without a doubt, but Schumi's reaction says a lot about the man - nothing we didn't already know however...

There you go again, slagging off Schumi for reacting like anybody would have done.

Even Coulthard himself has recently admitted that he made a mistake then.

I could give you more examples that McLaren is not shy of using team orders, but the difference is that the British then call it - clever tactics -,

but oh dear if Ferrari does the same, then it's dispicable.

Just my 2 cents