Where Are The Air Apologists Today

[meadish_sweetball]

Chiang Mai today, while not perfect, is much better than around the 18th. I'm off to do some gardening.

[chiang mai]

It seems that Hong Kong is also suffering from severe air pollution, blamed on the sandstorms North of Beijing! An API of 453, almost as bad as Mae Hongson and close to emergency levels.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8579495.stm

[meadish_sweetball]

Here's a picture from the worst day (for Chiang Mai):

[chiang mai]

So all of this, including the problems in Hong Kong currently, are generated in Northern China, is that the way we should read things?

[ThaiPauly]

To work out just how poluted the area is I just have to look in my pool.

When I got back from Bali it had turned GREEN, now its not just my pool, several other people with pool liners , not tiles have had this problem, it has now been treated with soda and is clear again "up to a point"....but it looks foggy, like the weather.

Now that I can see the bottom again it has large patches of what looks like silt at the bottom, yet it was only cleaned 48 hours previously.

It appears (to a simple man like me) that what falls from the sky is so heavy that it does not float.

As a result of my own research in my pool I conclude that the stuff that sinks to the bottom of my swimming pool is also entering my body or that of my wife then staying indoors as much as possible with doors and windows firmly closed is a darn good idea...the pool will be cleaned tomorrow so I can get myself another evaluation on Wednesday.

I had to venture out today for provisions and I was lucky enough to meet Priceless.....and we talked about the weather and he was kind enough to send me some very interesting charts detailing the polution levels we are enduring right now.

[orang37]

... snip ... and I was lucky enough to meet Priceless.....and we talked about the weather and he was kind enough to send me some very interesting charts detailing the polution levels we are enduring right now.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun ThaiPauly,

Sorry to hear about your pool, man: that does seem ominous, that stuff on the bottom. Was the "green" the result of algae (we haven't noticed any green pollution, yet) ?

Hope that Khun Priceless will soon post his always-illuminating charts here.

best, ~o:37;

[OriginalPoster]

I wonder if the Thais have ever considered addressing this problem.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I wonder if you have read any background on this problem, the factors in play, and where the problem originates.

[OriginalPoster]

I wonder if you have read any background on this problem, the factors in play, and where the problem originates.

<deleted>, does that mean, that it's someone else's problem?

[CMX]

No, I think that WK meant that threads on this subject are many, and that by reading them, we have to conclude that it is everyone's problem - but that those of us who are visitors in the country should study a bit before pointing fingers.

We all are aware of the risks. What is difficult is in finding a solution beyond that of self-righteous blaming others and resorting to simplistic solutions that make everyone else responsible.

Requiring an huge percent of any culture that has beliefs with roots going back many centuries is a complicated problem in any country, unless one accepts solutions such as those of Joe Stalin. You've seen on the maps that even an undeniably totalitarian nation with huge governmental powers, China, stills lights up the skies.

[Ripley01]

I was in CNX this time last year and thought the semi-pea soup atmosphere was the norm in a hot humid climate. But I live in London. It didn't bother me and I walked kilometres everywhere. I found the noise of those cricket things far more iritiating (& deafening).

[orang37]

... snip ... You've seen on the maps that even an undeniably totalitarian nation with huge governmental powers, China, stills lights up the skies.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

A friend of ours, living in Beijing, sent us a link to an article in the Daily Mail UK newspaper about the incredible pollution levels in China now.

Take a look at a few of these pictures :

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/22/...838_634x420.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/22/...752_634x402.jpg

The article is titled : "The day the sky turned yellow: Sandstorms sweep across China"

The BBC's on-line news-site is carrying an article today : "Hong Kong's air pollution reaches record levels" stating the Air Pollution Index went over 400 at six measuring stations, with the highest station recording 453. That's double the stay-indoors alert level of 200.

Looks like it is everyone's problem.

sadly, cough, hack, cough, ~o:37;

[ferd54]

The article is titled : "The day the sky turned yellow: Sandstorms sweep across China"

I live in Beijing. Last Saturday was very bad with a "sandstorm" -- which is more like fine powder -- that was carried on high winds from Mongolia. Yesterday (Monday) was bad too.

Today is blue sky.

This is not man-made pollution per se, but a result of desertification. The area of northern China around Beijing has had lots of precipitation this winter and is well-covered with trees and other growth. This came from hundreds of kilometers away and continued on to Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, etc.

Nasty stuff, but but lasts only a few days. Last year, there were no such "sandstorms". Unless they plant the entirety of Mongolia I don't think there's a solution. This is by no mean a new development, but part of the geography of the area down through history.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I wonder if you have read any background on this problem, the factors in play, and where the problem originates.

<deleted>, does that mean, that it's someone else's problem?

Oh, not at all, it's very much everyone's problem. I really dislike the month of March for this reason. What I meant was that the bulk of the problem originates across the wider region, caused by burning and possibly dust issues in Burma and possibly even China.

You seemed to imply that 'the Thais' (there's a phrase that always rubs me the wrong way, which was a contributing factor to the amount of sarcasm in my reply ) don't address the problem and/or that 'The Thais', this 'Borg-like entity of collective cluelessness', are at the root of the problem and have the means to do something about it in a significant way.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

It would be interesting if the Universities etc did studies to determine the local versus provincial and long distance contributions to CM air quality. These peak periods are definitely influenced by Myanmar etc.

I would not be surprised to find however that a lot of PM comes from local and nearby provincial sources during most of the year.

The difference between the mobile sensor which is up near the palace and the in city sensors show quite a difference.

If the pollution was mostly from long distance sources then wouldn't it blanket the mountains also? Perhaps there is some sort of trapping and intensification in the valley that creates buildup. That's why a study would be helpful to identify contributors to the problem.

Also it would be very interesting if they put sensors right on roadways like they do in western countries and let's measure what people are really being exposed to.

People talk alot about Thailand not being able to change but a lot of change has occurred already. Thai's use cell phones, water filters, trucks, powered farm equipment, pesticides and fertilizers, electricity. They have also made many social changes like curtailing child prostitution just in the last few years.

It's not such a wild stretch that they could be taught to stop fouling the air everybody breathes. Lot's of localities have tackled burning around the world. It's not a law of nature like gravity or solar radiation. It's caused by a largely avoidable human behavior.

[chiang mai]

It would be interesting if the Universities etc did studies to determine the local versus provincial and long distance contributions to CM air quality. These peak periods are definitely influenced by Myanmar etc.

I would not be surprised to find however that a lot of PM comes from local and nearby provincial sources during most of the year.

The difference between the mobile sensor which is up near the palace and the in city sensors show quite a difference.

If the pollution was mostly from long distance sources then wouldn't it blanket the mountains also? Perhaps there is some sort of trapping and intensification in the valley that creates buildup. That's why a study would be helpful to identify contributors to the problem.

Also it would be very interesting if they put sensors right on roadways like they do in western countries and let's measure what people are really being exposed to.

People talk alot about Thailand not being able to change but a lot of change has occurred already. Thai's use cell phones, water filters, trucks, powered farm equipment, pesticides and fertilizers, electricity. They have also made many social changes like curtailing child prostitution just in the last few years.

It's not such a wild stretch that they could be taught to stop fouling the air everybody breathes. Lot's of localities have tackled burning around the world. It's not a law of nature like gravity or solar radiation. It's caused by a largely avoidable human behavior.

I've long thought that was the case and have suggested it a number of times, only to be poo poo'ed by the "experts" - looking again at the map posted by Meadish plus the press cuttings citing similar problems elsewhere in the region reminds me externally sourced pollution and air currents may play a large part in this problem.

[Drew Aitch]

I think Monday to Wednesday last week have been the worst days so far this year certainly from a visibility point of view. I live right on the doorstep of the Doi Suthep yet you would never know it was there if you didn't live here.

Unfortunately, I've had visitors over from the UK. They came on Monday and left on Thursday morning without seeing the surrounding landscape. Now that they've gone it's much better. Sods law I guess!

The lady had some irritation in her eyes walking around the city, but it hasn't bothered me and it didn't bother her husband. I know there's still a while to go, but in the 4 years I've been here, this is the best it's ever been.

I'm a Doi walker but I've not had that dusty taste in the mouth or the super-filthy clothing that was so apparent in previous years.

Aitch

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Also it would be very interesting if they put sensors right on roadways like they do in western countries and let's measure what people are really being exposed to.

That's exactly what the Upparaj College station is. The Chiang Mai station is at the provincial hall, so that'd be similar to any gated residential development out of town. And then Chiangmai station tends to be on the mountain. I'd say we're blessed with pretty good coverage of different parts of the local landscape.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Also it would be very interesting if they put sensors right on roadways like they do in western countries and let's measure what people are really being exposed to.

That's exactly what the Upparaj College station is. The Chiang Mai station is at the provincial hall, so that'd be similar to any gated residential development out of town. And then Chiangmai station tends to be on the mountain. I'd say we're blessed with pretty good coverage of different parts of the local landscape.

where is that Upparaj college location? any landmarks?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

okay the Upparaj monitor equipment is on the little street where the Red Cross is located to the east side of the school. Definitely not a high traffic volume area. Probably fine for a representation of PM for the city as a whole. There would however probably be a 100+ road locations around the city with much higher carbon monoxide levels etc.

It's a good location for a foundation but to approach the apples to apples comparison with western countries they will need to put sensors right on major traffic corridors like California does.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Also it would be very interesting if they put sensors right on roadways like they do in western countries and let's measure what people are really being exposed to.

That's exactly what the Upparaj College station is. The Chiang Mai station is at the provincial hall, so that'd be similar to any gated residential development out of town. And then Chiangmai station tends to be on the mountain. I'd say we're blessed with pretty good coverage of different parts of the local landscape.

where is that Upparaj college location? any landmarks?

It's a misspelling of Yupparat College, the main Mathayom college in the old town. It's not super high traffic, but still very much downtown.

[realthaideal]

When ou were talking about Upparaj, I think ou forgot to put the 'Y' because the school's called called Yupparaj. There You go.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup Fellow Chiang Mai TV Pollutees,

Even though it would only contribute more darkness to this mental miasma which consumes us now, we would like to see measurement of pollution of the kind that schoolchildren absorb from the time they get out of school, to the time they get back home ... by songthaew, by three-or-more on a motosai, etc.

cough, sputter, gasp, ~o:37;

[orang37]

I live in Beijing. Last Saturday was very bad with a "sandstorm" -- which is more like fine powder -- that was carried on high winds from Mongolia. Yesterday (Monday) was bad too. ... snip ...

This is not man-made pollution per se, but a result of desertification. The area of northern China around Beijing has had lots of precipitation this winter and is well-covered with trees and other growth. This came from hundreds of kilometers away and continued on to Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, etc.

Nasty stuff, but but lasts only a few days. Last year, there were no such "sandstorms". Unless they plant the entirety of Mongolia I don't think there's a solution. This is by no mean a new development, but part of the geography of the area down through history.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Ferd54,

We assumed it would be obvious that the links were sandstorm related, and we are sorry to hear you are in Beijing, and going through this.

But we must respectfully disagree with you if you claim that the intensity of these current Chinese sandstorms is not related to human activities.

Yes, sandstorms are a natural phenomenon (we went through one hellacious one in July, 1976, in Delhi, ourselves, where, literally, a "yellow wall" [from the Sind desert] arrived with violent winds).

But, as the Daily Mail article pointed out about these sandstorms now in China :

It was the latest sign of the effects of desertification - overgrazing, deforestation, urban sprawl and drought have expanded deserts in the country's north and west. The shifting sands have gradually encroached onto populated areas and worsened the sand storms that strike cities, particularly in the spring."

And, further :

The Chinese Academy of Sciences has estimated that the number of sandstorms has jumped six-fold in the past 50 years to two dozen a year.

And :

China has planted thousands of acres of vegetation in recent years to stop the spread of deserts in its north and west, but experts have said the work will take decades. 'The challenges ahead are still huge,' China said in a report to the United Nations in 2006.

And the pressures of China's development aren't easing. 'Arid and semiarid areas can only support one or two people per square kilometre.

'In China, population density in these areas is over 10 people per square kilometre,' Jiang Gaoming, a professor at the Chinese Academy of Sciences' Institute of Botany, wrote for the online environmental magazine China Dialogue in 2007. The residents once were nomads, 'but now 'but now they have settled, increasing the pressure on the environment and inevitably damaging

it.'

best, ~o:37;

[ferd54]

But, as the Daily Mail article pointed out about these sandstorms now in China :

Yes, my source of reliable scientific fact

The Chinese Academy of Sciences has estimated that the number of sandstorms has jumped six-fold in the past 50 years to two dozen a year.

I don't know where TWO DOZEN sandstorms a year hit, but it is not Beijing. I've seen four in three years (if you count last week as two events). If there are 24 throughout the country in various places, that's a much different statistic. Remember, China has a vast dessert in Xinjiang as well as the Gobi. I believe sandstorms in the desert are quite common throughout the world ...

China has planted thousands of acres of vegetation in recent years to stop the spread of deserts in its north and west, but experts have said the work will take decades. 'The challenges ahead are still huge,' China said in a report to the United Nations in 2006.

'

Yes, and given the amount of snowfall in north, west and northeast China this year, it is perplexing that an enormous "sandstorm" like last week would hit.

Thanks for the condescending good wishes, orang, but I must report that all-in-all, I prefer living in Beijing over Chiang Mai. For the record, today was a nice day with continued breezes (free of sand) that kept the sky blue.

[PeaceBlondie]

Leave it to the Thais. If they don't fix it, we farang can't.

[orang37]

... snip ... Thanks for the condescending good wishes, orang, but I must report that all-in-all, I prefer living in Beijing over Chiang Mai. For the record, today was a nice day with continued breezes (free of sand) that kept the sky blue.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Ferd54,

We are really sorry if you experienced our remarks as condescending ! Really didn't intend them that way. We actually do care when people have to suffer through disastrous weather.

We just wished to broaden the discussion : you, there: in China, are in a position to help enlighten us by pointing us to more reliable scientific sources, if you believe the quotes from the Daily Mail are so "distorted" they are really inaccurate. We quoted them because they were at hand, and because they do coincide with other reports we've read on the terrible pollution in China (although most of those reports focus on the polluted industrial cities).

best, ~o:37;

[Drew Aitch]

Leave it to the Thais. If they don't fix it, we farang can't.

PeaceBlondie is right I'm afraid. 'When it Rome, do as the Romans do' as the saying goes. I guess that means abiding by their laws, customs, traditions, and way of life. Just because something is the way it is, that doesn't necessarily make it right, but it does mean it’s the way it is!

If the country in question ain't gonna fix it (whatever it happens to be), then one doubts the aliens (for want of a much better word!), are not going to get the opportunity to run the show and put things right for them.

If the visitors to my country, or yours, where to sit around and interact among themselves on a forum and slag the place off (rightly or wrongly), being visitors, they would probably be sent packing on the next slow boat to China (or wherever they came from).

Aitch

[ferd54]

you, there: in China, are in a position to help enlighten us by pointing us to more reliable scientific sources...

Well, I can give you my direct observations, which I have already done, and pass along what my Chinese colleague said Chinese media is reporting: That last Saturday's "sandstorm" was the worst in five years.

According to the Daily Mail, we should have had 24x3 over the time I've lived here (72) and such a miserable state of affairs that even I could not endure it. And I managed 14 years in Chiang Mai's burning seasons (thought they seemed to get worse with each passing year -- but it could have been my increasing intolerance of them).

Last Saturday's "sandstorm" was so remarkable that it made the front page of the local papers -- and as we see, international news. This was no run-of-the-mill event. There are predictions of up to 10 more this year, but we'll have to see if that is from the same Chinese Academy of Sciences quoted by the Mail and the same that said it made snowstorms by cloud seeding, when in fact seeding only augments existing precipitation events. Many of the claims made by "scientists" here remind me of statements by Thai police: Sometimes wild theories given as fact.

And just curious: Why do you refer to yourself as "we"? Are you pregnant, or just an imperial majesty?

[CMX]

While ~o:37 may explain his present being, some of us associate him with his picture, that of a Zacathan.