Thai Red Shirts Declare 'Class War'

[lannarebirth]

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

Many farmers vote Democrat, though they are mostly southern farmers.

Abhisit can tell you what he's done and what he plans to do:

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/announcements/gi...e-year-performa

I'll tell you that nothing will change without expanding the tax base, which is one of his aims. In this endeavour he will be fighting "elites" on behalf of those who say they would not vote fo him. Lessening corruption is a big theme of his and you and I both know it hits the poorest the hardest. Higher tax revenues would see a tripling of police salaries IMO and a culling of those still "bent". You need taxes to pay for that. Poor people don't pay taxes, the rich and middle class do. Pretty ironic really.

[Publicus]

He means that what he hears, doesn't reflect the reality we know exists back in the states.

There is something that isn't registering, like many people seem to think the Internet,

Television and Hollywood Personalities are 'Americans in general'. When at best they are

caricatures or archetypes writ large. Or that, for a glaring example, Bush was elected

and kept in office by a majority of Americans, and so we ALL think like that...

Just like Thaksin it was really a minority segment, that managed to get enough votes by hook or crook.

Those that have actually been there and traveled any amount there are not like this.

Though of they stayed regional they often adopt regional stereotypes attitudes vs other sections

He doesn't mean an inability to take criticizm from friendly allies, which Bush had in spades,

but that many of our allies citizens, clearly have misshapen images of what life in America is actually like.

OK, I get it. It's just as well that many Americans don't have a jaunduce view of their allies then.

Crocodile Dundee signing off.

Certainlt Pub and I would both agree there are idioticly myopic and parochial Americans,

who don't even see the full width of plurality in their own state, let alone the whole country.

All nations have pinheads residing within.

Yes, it's a given we would agree and do agree that for as long as there are humans there invariably will be stupidity - I myself long ago learned to hunt crow for the occasional main course as it's impossible to buy in markets (I usually get offered a pigeon).

However, I don't go out of my way to initiate vebal assaults on nationalities, races, ethnic groups, sexual orientation, gender etc. I've made criticisms of Thaksin or Thailand itself to this forum as well as praise and hope of the latter. I've exposed the People's Republic of China only because deluded America-haters think the PRC has some dominance over my country or shall succeed in China's one-party and one dimensional purposes. Etc. My critiques and criticisms are in response to the aggressions of others (I know, I know, passive aggressive ).

The one thing that is certain is that hoards of pinheads from nations everywhere constantly make themselves known to both myself and to other of my fellow countrymen. It's a guarantee.

[Old Man River]

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

I am a bit confused by some of the things you have said, but I will stick to those above. Please explain how the current government have been placed into power by a fake election. Also, in a Thai context, how would you define a real election?

[madi]

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

I am a bit confused by some of the things you have said, but I will stick to those above. Please explain how the current government have been placed into power by a fake election. Also, in a Thai context, how would you define a real election?

OK

I think you do not agree with me.

But let us again compare.

If Obama were thrown out by a coup.

Then the Democratic party leaders and party were broken apart by a court that was placed into its power by the same coup government, how could anyone say an election that followed was legitimate and fair?

Certainly no one would.

[madi]

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

I am a bit confused by some of the things you have said, but I will stick to those above. Please explain how the current government have been placed into power by a fake election. Also, in a Thai context, how would you define a real election?

OK

I think you do not agree with me.

But let us again compare.

If Obama were thrown out by a coup.

Then the Democratic party leaders and party were broken apart by a court that was placed into its power by the same coup government, how could anyone say an election that followed was legitimate and fair?

Certainly no one would.

Might I add

If I were sitting in Thailand right now, I would be in danger even posting these truths.

There is no freedom of speech when it comes to political views in Thailand. One can be arrested for saying truths.

Hardly a democratic government is it.

[hextac]

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I'm a big fan of T&A.

Sorry... I'll get my coat...

[Jerrytheyoung]

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

Many farmers vote Democrat, though they are mostly southern farmers.

Abhisit can tell you what he's done and what he plans to do:

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/announcements/gi...e-year-performa

I'll tell you that nothing will change without expanding the tax base, which is one of his aims. In this endeavour he will be fighting "elites" on behalf of those who say they would not vote fo him. Lessening corruption is a big theme of his and you and I both know it hits the poorest the hardest. Higher tax revenues would see a tripling of police salaries IMO and a culling of those still "bent". You need taxes to pay for that. Poor people don't pay taxes, the rich and middle class do. Pretty ironic really.

OK, thanks for the information but I am not satisfied;

1- It is probably true what you state about the Farmer vote until now. But why TODAY, they are not pleased and are threatening to ban the Democrat vote? Certainly because the Government answer are not satisfactory. to be noticed that the Farmers have avoided to participate to Red Shirts demonstration

2- In the situation we are, good intentions are not sufficient, more as you have underlined an increase of taxes is difficult and due to Elite opponents will be quite limited. In conclusion, this is not at the level of an expected response in such a crisis. Clearly, some projects of the grandiose Bangkok have to be slashed immediately and part of the budget transferred to sustain the rural population which represents 50% of the population. good intentions but too weak, uncertain envelope and at the end lack of credibility in the realisation.

3- Abhisit need to take immediately the dimension of the issue. i give him cedit of Good will, but my mark is : Insufficient in the current circumstances

[lannarebirth]

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

Many farmers vote Democrat, though they are mostly southern farmers.

Abhisit can tell you what he's done and what he plans to do:

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/announcements/gi...e-year-performa

I'll tell you that nothing will change without expanding the tax base, which is one of his aims. In this endeavour he will be fighting "elites" on behalf of those who say they would not vote fo him. Lessening corruption is a big theme of his and you and I both know it hits the poorest the hardest. Higher tax revenues would see a tripling of police salaries IMO and a culling of those still "bent". You need taxes to pay for that. Poor people don't pay taxes, the rich and middle class do. Pretty ironic really.

OK, thanks for the information but I am not satisfied;

1- It is probably true what you state about the Farmer vote until now. But why TODAY, they are not pleased and are threatening to ban the Democrat vote? Certainly because the Government answer are not satisfactory. to be noticed that the Farmers have avoided to participate to Red Shirts demonstration

2- In the situation we are, good intentions are not sufficient, more as you have underlined an increase of taxes is difficult and due to Elite opponents will be quite limited. In conclusion, this is not at the level of an expected response in such a crisis. Clearly, some projects of the grandiose Bangkok have to be slashed immediately and part of the budget transferred to sustain the rural population which represents 50% of the population. good intentions but too weak, uncertain envelope and at the end lack of credibility in the realisation.

3- Abhisit need to take immediately the dimension of the issue. i give him cedit of Good will, but my mark is : Insufficient in the current circumstances

Of course taxes will be limited, but they have to be established first. When did a tax not go up once established? Additionally Abhisit needs to get going on land reform. Thaksin did that a little bit, primarily for the benefit of his rural moneylenders. Abhisit needs to get rid of a lot of these bad titles farmers have been stuck with forever. THAT will be a tough one. Taxes easy by comparison.

[madi]

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

I am a bit confused by some of the things you have said, but I will stick to those above. Please explain how the current government have been placed into power by a fake election. Also, in a Thai context, how would you define a real election?

A real election would start by saying that the main political party was not outlawed by a puppet court which was put into the court seats by a coup government.

Again--can you imagine this?

Obama and the Dems won in America.

President Obama takes a trip to Europe.

While in Europe, a coup is staged.

The coup government puts in its own constitution and supreme court members.

it then outlaws the party that Obama represents and puts out an arrest warrant for Obama.

Finally the same coup government holds an election making sure Obama and his part cannot appear on the ballots.

of course its puppet government wins.

Would you find this to be a real democratically elected government?

NO

[Old Man River]

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

I am a bit confused by some of the things you have said, but I will stick to those above. Please explain how the current government have been placed into power by a fake election. Also, in a Thai context, how would you define a real election?

OK

I think you do not agree with me.

But let us again compare.

If Obama were thrown out by a coup.

Then the Democratic party leaders and party were broken apart by a court that was placed into its power by the same coup government, how could anyone say an election that followed was legitimate and fair?

Certainly no one would.

Might I add

If I were sitting in Thailand right now, I would be in danger even posting these truths.

There is no freedom of speech when it comes to political views in Thailand. One can be arrested for saying truths.

Hardly a democratic government is it.

What one thinks is the truth is a matter of opinion, but OK, there is one subject that cannot be openly spoken about. Other than that, political issues are openly discussed on websites inside of Thailand.

The dissolution was for election fraud based on the laws. If the laws in the US were the same the result would have been the same (the laws are not the same). BTW, I disagree with the law that allowed the whole party to be dissolved due to the fraudulent actions of one of its party leaders and I am free in Thailand to say this. There are many in the current government that have openly voiced this opinion as well. There is more freedom of speech on political issues than you might think.

[Jerrytheyoung]

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

Many farmers vote Democrat, though they are mostly southern farmers.

Abhisit can tell you what he's done and what he plans to do:

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/announcements/gi...e-year-performa

I'll tell you that nothing will change without expanding the tax base, which is one of his aims. In this endeavour he will be fighting "elites" on behalf of those who say they would not vote fo him. Lessening corruption is a big theme of his and you and I both know it hits the poorest the hardest. Higher tax revenues would see a tripling of police salaries IMO and a culling of those still "bent". You need taxes to pay for that. Poor people don't pay taxes, the rich and middle class do. Pretty ironic really.

OK, thanks for the information but I am not satisfied;

1- It is probably true what you state about the Farmer vote until now. But why TODAY, they are not pleased and are threatening to ban the Democrat vote? Certainly because the Government answer are not satisfactory. to be noticed that the Farmers have avoided to participate to Red Shirts demonstration

2- In the situation we are, good intentions are not sufficient, more as you have underlined an increase of taxes is difficult and due to Elite opponents will be quite limited. In conclusion, this is not at the level of an expected response in such a crisis. Clearly, some projects of the grandiose Bangkok have to be slashed immediately and part of the budget transferred to sustain the rural population which represents 50% of the population. good intentions but too weak, uncertain envelope and at the end lack of credibility in the realisation.

3- Abhisit need to take immediately the dimension of the issue. i give him cedit of Good will, but my mark is : Insufficient in the current circumstances

Of course taxes will be limited, but they have to be established first. When did a tax not go up once established? Additionally Abhisit needs to get going on land reform. Thaksin did that a little bit, primarily for the benefit of his rural moneylenders. Abhisit needs to get rid of a lot of these bad titles farmers have been stuck with forever. THAT will be a tough one. Taxes easy by comparison.

I agree that some reforms have to be done, it will not be easy and that it will take time. But TODAY how to get out of this crisis?

Time is against Abhisit, as per today environment, it is clear that next election will be lost by Democrats.

If the Government response is insufficient, troubles and demonstrations will continue and it will cost probably more than what is required by an emergency budget for cooling down the situation.

In any case the current Budget validity is limited because other will take over...

[Publicus]

It is comical seeing so many working class farangs here defending the upper class Elite here who have crushed democratic elections and the will of the people.

If the same thing were to happen in their own nations, they would be on the side of the workers surely.

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

We have the poor workers being laughed at and spit upon by the ruling class and some of you, in fact most of you here, find this to be acceptable.

If this were America and Obama were campaigning and his group was laughed at, would you laugh?

Then after he won the election, a coup occurred, would you laugh?

Then a puppet court put in by the same coup government put out a warrant for Obama's arrest, would you laugh?

Then when his people marched in the streets in protest, would you laugh?

Well you might if you were a Nazi or a rightwing nut, but if you love democratic rule and fairness, you would not.

Now I am not saying that Taksan is Obama.

He clearly is not.

However all the other points are still true.

You people, some of you puppying the Thai Elite, say Taksan stole all his money.

BUT, all the nations where Taksan travels to refuse to arrest him because they obviously do not think Taksan did steal that money. All western European nations ignore Thailand's request for him.

Japan does too. America and Canada do too.

Why is that?

The ruling Elite in Thailand will fall one day and if they push too hard, they will fall like those in France did.

OR

They can do as the Elite in the UK did.

Back out of the government completely.

Then hold the other power.

So you know the reason Thaksin isn't being arrested by foreign authorities?!? Very good. NOT!

You're trying to sell your baloney (bologna) as an actual reason or fact.

Reality is that the governments of Western democracies neither arrest nor admit Thaksin because he is diplomatically radioactive. The guy was convicted by the courts of his own native country. Agree or disagree with the conviction, sovereign governments aren't normally going to challenge the constitution and the legal or judical/justice system of a benign sovereign country which is what Thailand is.

The London based International Institute of Strategic Studies, a global brain cell, made the faux pas in early 2007, shortly after Thaksin was deposed, of inviting and receiving Thaksin to lecture on democracy vs military rule. The IISS however quickly found out that what on the surface appeared to it to be a sound, consistent and appropriate endeavor turned out to be gross embarrassment. Indeed, shortly after Thaksin's ha ha, he he appearance and speech at the IISS, the UK government revoked Thaksin's visa (followed by Germany). Other Western democracies have followd suit in that they've made clear to Thaksin that diplomatically he is off the Geiger Counter.

Maybe some farang believe in Thaksin but maybe some farang are Thaksin's lap dogs. Either way, Thaksin is persona non grata to the governments of Western democracies. That's because Thaksin can't pass the smell test.

[Netfan]

If I were sitting in Thailand right now, I would be in danger even posting these truths.

There is no freedom of speech when it comes to political views in Thailand. One can be arrested for saying truths.

Hardly a democratic government is it.

So you are not here but you know you would be in danger posting these mis-truths? BULLS^#T.

You are so far off the mark its hard to know where to start. How do you explain that Truth Today is allowed to be published? That Thaksin is allowed to call in / video in to the Red rally? That the speakers at the rally can call for the dissolution of parliament? All freely. No freedom of speech? What an idiot. And i've never used that term before to describe a poster. Or you're just a troll. Anywho, after you've finished with those answers, go back and answer how this govt was put in via a "fake election".

Yes, you could be in trouble for impugning the integrity of the courts. But in the west if you called a judge corrupt and said that they based a decision on outside influence you'd be in jail for contempt of court. With no bail until you apologized. If you were a lawyer your license would be under review.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Netfan

[mazeltov]

that vote can be also placed by the voter strategically, for example with the intention to have more balance in the parliament or give one party not to much power, you don't have to give the 2nd vote for the same party of the candidate of your first choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_voting

That is not how the election in Thailand is done, you don't have several votes per person in the same election.

What the process has is a mix of both constituencies and popular vote as a way to populate the parliament, but it only relates to how the votes are calculated. The popular vote adjustment is to offset issues with constituencies being incorrectly valued in terms of MPs compared to their population.

sorry, you are wrong.

2007 Thailands voters got 2 ballot papers / ballot cards.

so voters cast two votes. one vote elect up to 3 MPs in their constituency (up to 3 x.marks on the ballot paper - multiply voting.) and the voter can cast a second vote for a party list, the so called proportional vote.

actually voters didn't had to remember the names of 'their' candidates of 'their' preferred party but numbers. weeks before election day parties got a number in a draw for the proportional vote/ ballot paper. same as the constituency candidates got also a number per draw.

i don't want to start to argue or to explain the full election system to avoid and exclude any possible misunderstanding. for that i would have to do probably also the voting systems of a couple of other countries and then point out the differences that look at the first glimpse similar. i guess here lay the major reason for misinterpretations by different board members because at home there is also not that simple process but ditto something tricky. so your way of thought and how you think you have understand it is maybe over shadowed how it's done in sweden, but in thailand aren't something like the adjustment seats or overhang mandates.

for the election thailand was splitted into 157 constituencies and eight electoral zones.

in each of the 157 constituencies had a separate counting of the ballot papers for the direct candicates of this constituencies. depending on population, some constituencies elect 3 MP, some only 2 MP and few only by 1 MP.

the voter in each constituency was able to make as many x-marks behind candidates on the ballot paper as MPs got elected in his constituency. ( simplified model - constituency A,B,C: A has population of 30.000 elect 3 MP, B population 10000 elect 1 MP, C 20.000 elect 2 MP - voter in A have 3x marks for a valid vote, voter in B can cross only one. in B only the winner get lucky, in C also the 2nd runner up and in A also the 3rd)

400 of 480 members of Parliament (MP) get elected this way.

80 MP seats got elected by the proportional system. country got "splitted" into 8 different zones

with an approximate equal numbers of population. for each zone 10 MP. so parties could came up with a party list of up to 10 candidates. for the proportional vote the voter was able to make one x-mark, select one party from all the different parties that appear on the ballot paper.

the split into 8 zones and that votes go rounded up in each zone leaded to the odd situation that PPP got here 1 seat more than the dems, despite the fact they got around 15.000 votes less. an other party (Matchima Thippathai) got nothing for their 500.000 votes in total, if they had got all their votes only in one zone it could had been 'worth' 2 seats.

[lannarebirth]

But TODAY how to get out of this crisis?

Time is against Abhisit, as per today environment, it is clear that next election will be lost by Democrats.

If the Government response is insufficient, troubles and demonstrations will continue and it will cost probably more than what is required by an emergency budget for cooling down the situation.

1) I don't see that what is going on today is a crisis. My opinion might change tomorrow however.

2) I agree abhisit has a time window here to turn things his way. His biggest problem is he's surrounded by alligators and back stabbers who could cut him off at the knees if he is seen to make moves that don't include them. I also disagree the next election would be lost by the Democrats. Sure a majority maybe, but I think they could swing a greater plurality than last election.

3) I think demonstrations will continue in some form regardless of actions taken. They don't quite understand how democracy works here.

Edited March 20, 2010 by lannarebirth

[ThaksinKharma]

Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'

by Rachel O'Brien

BANGKOK (AFP) - Thailand's rural underclass, vying to revive flagging momentum after a week of colourful protests, appealed Thursday for a popular uprising against the well-entrenched political and aristocratic elite.

Suporn Atthawong, a protest leader from northeast Thailand, the heartland of support for populist former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

And just like Thaksin, I read today that Suporn has had an arrest warrant issued to him today.

Seems Suporn failed to show up for a Supreme Court hearing he had on his conviction appeal. He had been sentenced to 12 months in prison by the Criminal Court and that conviction/sentence had been upheld by the Appeals Court. He had made a further appeal on that to the Supreme Court, but then failed to show up for the appeal hearing, hence he's now a fugitive.

As a banned former MP of the notorious Thai Rak Thai Party, he shares quite a bit with the former Party Leader Thaksin.

Additionally, he had a co-defendant in the case, a banned former MP of the equally notorious People Power Party, Theerachai Saenkaew, who also failed to show before the Supreme Court on his lesser conviction and 6 month prison sentence. He also is a fugitive now.

[Old Man River]

Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'

by Rachel O'Brien

BANGKOK (AFP) - Thailand's rural underclass, vying to revive flagging momentum after a week of colourful protests, appealed Thursday for a popular uprising against the well-entrenched political and aristocratic elite.

Suporn Atthawong, a protest leader from northeast Thailand, the heartland of support for populist former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

And just like Thaksin, I read today that Suporn has had an arrest warrant issued to him today.

Seems Suporn failed to show up for a Supreme Court hearing he had on his conviction appeal. He had been sentenced to 12 months in prison by the Criminal Court and that conviction/sentence had been upheld by the Appeals Court. He had made a further appeal on that to the Supreme Court, but then failed to show up for the appeal hearing, hence he's now a fugitive.

As a banned former MP of the notorious Thai Rak Thai Party, he shares quite a bit with the former Party Leader Thaksin.

Additionally, he had a co-defendant in the case, a banned former MP of the equally notorious People Power Party, Theerachai Saenkaew, who also failed to show before the Supreme Court on his lesser conviction and 6 month prison sentence. He also is a fugitive now.

It sounds like Dubai is going to get a few more "investors."

[moresomekl]

The debate isn't really all about Thaksin.

You're terribly naive jayboy.

The debate is only about Thaksin. The red cult could have anything they wanted if they simply disavowed their saviour. The reds are trying to make people believe it is about something else, because defending a convicted felon is an extremely difficult proposition. But no solution will be acceptable to them unless it includes the exoneration of Thaksin.

That isn't to say that individual people don't have legitimate concerns, but those CAN NOT be addressed through the red movement. Those concerns can only be addressed after Thaksin, and by extension the red movement, is eliminated.

Show me a group of reds who have publicly denounced Thaksin continuously and vocally, and I will accept your argument that it is not about Thaksin. Otherwise, you are simply spreading disinformation.

Ask yourself the why first

Why have the poor chosen a morally compromised billionaire to be the leader of their movement? What have we done as a nation to cause these people from the rural provinces so much pain and suffering that they need to march on the capital to demand that their voices be heard? And have these people in the past been treated with the respect and fairness that all human beings deserve?

Bangkok Post

[moresomekl]

Thai Red Shirts declare 'class war'

by Rachel O'Brien

BANGKOK (AFP) - Thailand's rural underclass, vying to revive flagging momentum after a week of colourful protests, appealed Thursday for a popular uprising against the well-entrenched political and aristocratic elite.

Suporn Atthawong, a protest leader from northeast Thailand, the heartland of support for populist former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

And just like Thaksin, I read today that Suporn has had an arrest warrant issued to him today.

Seems Suporn failed to show up for a Supreme Court hearing he had on his conviction appeal. He had been sentenced to 12 months in prison by the Criminal Court and that conviction/sentence had been upheld by the Appeals Court. He had made a further appeal on that to the Supreme Court, but then failed to show up for the appeal hearing, hence he's now a fugitive.

As a banned former MP of the notorious Thai Rak Thai Party, he shares quite a bit with the former Party Leader Thaksin.

Additionally, he had a co-defendant in the case, a banned former MP of the equally notorious People Power Party, Theerachai Saenkaew, who also failed to show before the Supreme Court on his lesser conviction and 6 month prison sentence. He also is a fugitive now.

It sounds like Dubai is going to get a few more "investors."

Thaksin is now in Dubai ???

[Jerrytheyoung]

But TODAY how to get out of this crisis?

Time is against Abhisit, as per today environment, it is clear that next election will be lost by Democrats.

If the Government response is insufficient, troubles and demonstrations will continue and it will cost probably more than what is required by an emergency budget for cooling down the situation.

1) I don't see that what is going on today is a crisis. My opinion might change tomorrow however.

2) I agree abhisit has a time window here to turn things his way. His biggest problem is he's surrounded by alligators and back stabbers who could cut him off at the knees if he is seen to make moves that don't include them. I also disagree the next election would be lost by the Democrats. Sure a majority maybe, but I think they could swing a greater plurality than last election.

3) I think demonstrations will continue in some form regardless of actions taken. They don't quite understand how democracy works here.

I admire your optimism:

1-everything is normal there is no crisis (we have a french song in France "tout va tres bien Madame la Marquise",..... "the barn is burning, your horse is dead, the Castle is in fire, your husband is dead...Everything OK Madame la Marquise)

2- It is in such cicumstances that we will see if Abhisit is a Great man or just a tactician. He has to overpass his own side and has to show he is the PM of all Thais including the Northern rural population. Unfortunately, the current proposals, as they have been explained in this forum, seems very slim, nothing really concrete, just promises under conditions... It look very insufficient to cool down the situation and get the support of the Northern population.

3- yes the demonstrations will probably continue because the 'package" is empty.

[moresomekl]

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

I am a bit confused by some of the things you have said, but I will stick to those above. Please explain how the current government have been placed into power by a fake election. Also, in a Thai context, how would you define a real election?

OK

I think you do not agree with me.

But let us again compare.

If Obama were thrown out by a coup.

Then the Democratic party leaders and party were broken apart by a court that was placed into its power by the same coup government, how could anyone say an election that followed was legitimate and fair?

Certainly no one would.

You are right in the context of US or France (my country) as we have a system of check and balance to prevent abuse of power that does not exist in Thailand in particular a PM can be elected as many times as he wants provided he wins the elections

In Thailand as in USA or France a coup is illegal

Thaksin did commit abuse of powers and what is not new in Thailand also corruption .

He was care taker PM at the moment of the coup , not yet reelected

His removal was virtually impossible by legal means .

That does not excuse the coup , that explains

One of the following elected governement , on the side of Thaksin , was removed , because the PM was hosting

a cooking show hahaha and receiving a small salary (few hundred US$) for it which is illegal . I find this however bit funny

Another elected governement on the side of Thaksin was removed on the ground of money for votes

but that has been practised before several times in Thailand .

You got the info ....

[ThaksinKharma]

And just like Thaksin, I read today that Suporn has had an arrest warrant issued to him today.

Seems Suporn failed to show up for a Supreme Court hearing he had on his conviction appeal. He had been sentenced to 12 months in prison by the Criminal Court and that conviction/sentence had been upheld by the Appeals Court. He had made a further appeal on that to the Supreme Court, but then failed to show up for the appeal hearing, hence he's now a fugitive.

As a banned former MP of the notorious Thai Rak Thai Party, he shares quite a bit with the former Party Leader Thaksin.

Additionally, he had a co-defendant in the case, a banned former MP of the equally notorious People Power Party, Theerachai Saenkaew, who also failed to show before the Supreme Court on his lesser conviction and 6 month prison sentence. He also is a fugitive now.

It sounds like Dubai is going to get a few more "investors."

By the way, Suporn may be more widely known by his moniker, Issan Rambo.

Although he doesn't have the physical build of a Sylvester Stallone (actually being obese, he's a polar opposite), but he shares a fascination with weapons and gun shoot-outs.

Edited March 20, 2010 by ThaksinKharma

[lannarebirth]

But TODAY how to get out of this crisis?

Time is against Abhisit, as per today environment, it is clear that next election will be lost by Democrats.

If the Government response is insufficient, troubles and demonstrations will continue and it will cost probably more than what is required by an emergency budget for cooling down the situation.

1) I don't see that what is going on today is a crisis. My opinion might change tomorrow however.

2) I agree abhisit has a time window here to turn things his way. His biggest problem is he's surrounded by alligators and back stabbers who could cut him off at the knees if he is seen to make moves that don't include them. I also disagree the next election would be lost by the Democrats. Sure a majority maybe, but I think they could swing a greater plurality than last election.

3) I think demonstrations will continue in some form regardless of actions taken. They don't quite understand how democracy works here.

I admire your optimism:

1-everything is normal there is no crisis (we have a french song in France "tout va tres bien Madame la Marquise",..... "the barn is burning, your horse is dead, the Castle is in fire, your husband is dead...Everything OK Madame la Marquise)

2- It is in such cicumstances that we will see if Abhisit is a Great man or just a tactician. He has to overpass his own side and has to show he is the PM of all Thais including the Northern rural population. Unfortunately, the current proposals, as they have been explained in this forum, seems very slim, nothing really concrete, just promises under conditions... It look very insufficient to cool down the situation and get the support of the Northern population.

3- yes the demonstrations will probably continue because the 'package" is empty.

2) You know he's not a dictator. He can't implement poicy independent of the legislative body, (most of whom would like to see him fail). Also this Northern population needs to make some gestures. He is not even able to travel in those areas at present because of bomb and assasination threats. Maybe they could lighten up on that a bit?

What do you mean nothing concrete? He's doing a bottom to top overhaul of the entire education system and passed legislation that makes that available to all for free for 15 years. Who else did nearly so much?

As an aside, you don't see any irony in the fact that the police are m/l onboard with this movement as well? What did the rural poor EVER get from the police except grief?

[moresomekl]

I admire your optimism:

1-everything is normal there is no crisis (we have a french song in France "tout va tres bien Madame la Marquise",..... "the barn is burning, your horse is dead, the Castle is in fire, your husband is dead...Everything OK Madame la Marquise)

2- It is in such cicumstances that we will see if Abhisit is a Great man or just a tactician. He has to overpass his own side and has to show he is the PM of all Thais including the Northern rural population. Unfortunately, the current proposals, as they have been explained in this forum, seems very slim, nothing really concrete, just promises under conditions... It look very insufficient to cool down the situation and get the support of the Northern population.

3- yes the demonstrations will probably continue because the 'package" is empty.

2) You know he's not a dictator. He can't implement poicy independent of the legislative body, (most of whom would like to see him fail). Also this Northern population needs to make some gestures. He is not even able to travel in those areas at present because of bomb and assasination threats. Maybe they could lighten up on that a bit?

What do you mean nothing concrete? He's doing a bottom to top overhaul of the entire education system and passed legislation that makes that available to all for free for 15 years. Who else did nearly so much?

As an aside, you don't see any irony in the fact that the police are m/l onboard with this movement as well? What did the rural poor EVER get from the police except grief?

To make bloody sure there is no more dictators its best to have a law that prevents someone to be PM more then two times .

Well if Abhisit REALLY implements free education for all thais till 15 years then he has my gf's vote

[ballpoint]

You are right in the context of US or France (my country) as we have a system of check and balance to prevent abuse of power that does not exist in Thailand in particular a PM can be elected as many times as he wants provided he wins the elections

In Thailand as in USA or France a coup is illegal

Thaksin did commit abuse of powers and what is not new in Thailand also corruption .

He was care taker PM at the moment of the coup , not yet reelected

His removal was virtually impossible by legal means .

That does not excuse the coup , that explains

One of the following elected governement , on the side of Thaksin , was removed , because the PM was hosting

a cooking show hahaha and receiving a small salary (few hundred US$) for it which is illegal . I find this however bit funny

Another elected governement on the side of Thaksin was removed on the ground of money for votes

but that has been practised before several times in Thailand .

You got the info ....

I'd agree with most of this, except that the government was not removed when Samak was impeached. It carried on with Somchai as PM. In fact, Samak could even have come back, but there is some speculation that he was proving to be too much his own man for Thaksin's liking. He was initially renominated for the position by the party, but it was ultimately given to Thaksin's brother in law. It's funny how we never hear the reds condemning this, as surely one man interfering with a party's democratic right to vote its own leader, and therefore nominate a PM, is hardly an act of people power.

I also wouldn't place so much emphasis on the "but it's been done before" argument. It really is no excuse for someone to get away with corruption, vote buying or malfeasance. One could just as well argue "The coup in 2006 was illegal, but because of multiple precedents, going back to 1932, can be justified".

[ballpoint]

Well if Abhisit REALLY implements free education for all thais till 15 years then he has my gf's vote

Just how old is your girlfriend?

[moresomekl]

You are right in the context of US or France (my country) as we have a system of check and balance to prevent abuse of power that does not exist in Thailand in particular a PM can be elected as many times as he wants provided he wins the elections

In Thailand as in USA or France a coup is illegal

Thaksin did commit abuse of powers and what is not new in Thailand also corruption .

He was care taker PM at the moment of the coup , not yet reelected

His removal was virtually impossible by legal means .

That does not excuse the coup , that explains

One of the following elected governement , on the side of Thaksin , was removed , because the PM was hosting

a cooking show hahaha and receiving a small salary (few hundred US$) for it which is illegal . I find this however bit funny

Another elected governement on the side of Thaksin was removed on the ground of money for votes

but that has been practised before several times in Thailand .

You got the info ....

I'd agree with most of this, except that the government was not removed when Samak was impeached. It carried on with Somchai as PM. In fact, Samak could even have come back, but there is some speculation that he was proving to be too much his own man for Thaksin's liking. He was initially renominated for the position by the party, but it was ultimately given to Thaksin's brother in law. It's funny how we never hear the reds condemning this, as surely one man interfering with a party's democratic right to vote its own leader, and therefore nominate a PM, is hardly an act of people power.

I also wouldn't place so much emphasis on the "but it's been done before" argument. It really is no excuse for someone to get away with corruption, vote buying or malfeasance. One could just as well argue "The coup in 2006 was illegal, but because of multiple precedents, going back to 1932, can be justified".

Well that is how private companies are run by their CEO . Thaksin

never could make the difference with running a country

17 coups since 1945 to be precise . Agree on your logic

[lannarebirth]

Well if Abhisit REALLY implements free education for all thais till 15 years then he has my gf's vote

Just how old is your girlfriend?

The reform committee has not completed its work yet but the indications are the overhaul will be extensive. Ironically (again) this will probably make Abhisit still more enemies amongst old guard educators, culture fascists, and entrenched MOE interests.

[moresomekl]

Well if Abhisit REALLY implements free education for all thais till 15 years then he has my gf's vote

Just how old is your girlfriend?

42 , why ?

[ballpoint]

Well if Abhisit REALLY implements free education for all thais till 15 years then he has my gf's vote

Just how old is your girlfriend?

42 , why ?

I was pulling your leg. Childish English style humour. It's easy to forget the many different cultures here, and what each may find funny. Sorry. (And I'm not even English).