นิยม

[klons]

Is this correct? From the pages of thai-language .com. The same word pronounced either way?

Are there many other words like this if thus is so?

นิยม

niH yohmM

1.[adj] popular

2.[n] principle; theory; doctrine

3.[v] to decree; to appoint; to order; to issue a decision

4.[adj] [grammar] demonstrative

5.[mod, formal] [is] fond of; admiring

plus 1 more

นิยม

niH yaH maH

1.[adj] popular

2.[n] principle; theory; doctrine

3.[v] to decree; to appoint; to order; to issue a decision

4.[adj] [grammar] demonstrative

5.[mod, formal] [is] fond of; admiring

plus 1 more

[DavidHouston]

Klons,

On the T-L.com page for นิยม, http://www.thai-language.com/id/137936 , I see only one term which uses the "นิ-ยะ-มะ" pronunciation. That is "นิยมวิเศษณ์". All others in the dictionary use the standard "นิยม" pronunciation. I believe that the alternative pronunciations shown in the word's headnotes reflect all possible pronunciations, not alternatives for each definition.

[mangkorn]

There are many words, particularly of Indic origin, which are pronounced two different ways.

I've been taking a long-running, occasional random poll of the man/woman on the street regarding the word ประวัติศาสตร์: the results are nearly 50-50, on whether the last written vowel in ประวัติ is pronounced, or not.

Different dictionaries differ also. Even the RID shows two possible pronunciations for many such words.

And then there are words like ปกติ and มกราคม, where pronunciations of the first implied vowel may be different (perhaps depending on level of education?).

[Richard W]

What Klons has seen is an example of word acquiring a link vowel when prefixed to another word. Thai-language.com can't yet handle this properly because Glenn Slayden swallowed the line that Thai is an isolating language. The link vowel often makes the vowel preceding the final consonant open - there is variation in the precise effects, and several words have different pronunciations as a prefix, as well as variants in which there is no link vowel (as in Mangkorn's ประวัติศาสตร์ example).

There used to be the genuine complication that words sometimes unpredictably retained the final vowel, but wrote it implicitly. However, the official standard now requires that such vowels be indicated by a final ะ.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Richard W

[SoftWater]

Interesting.

Admittedly, my accumulated experience of Thai is limited, but I've never heard ประวัติศาสตร์ pronounced without the the /ih/ vowel being sounded /bra-wat-ih-sat/

On the other hand, I had always thought ประสบการณ์ was pronounced /bra-sop-garn/ until today I heard it with with the extra vowel /bra-sob-a:-garn/

It's a minefield out there!

Edited March 30, 2010 by SoftWater

[DavidHouston]

I believe that this question is not one of correct or incorrect pronunciation based on the standards set by the Royal Institute or what the RI provides with respect to any individual word. Rather, what we are seeing is a Thai version of "clipping" (a word formed by dropping one or more syllables from a polysyllabic word) or "elision" (the omission of a sound in pronunciation).

Thus, in Thai speech "มหาวิทยาลัย" becomes "มหา-ลัย"; "พิจารณา" becomes "พิด-ณา"; and "รัฐธรรมนูญ" becomes "รัฐ-นูญ".

Perhaps simplification in speech is a process which occurs slowly over time or, perhaps, it is like the theory of "punctuated equilibrium" in evolution whereby catastrophic changes occur after long periods of stasis. Such a change with respect to language may be underway now with "SMS", "Twitter", and "Internet" English dramatically disrupting our various mother tongues taught by our respective English teachers.

What do you think?

[anchan42]

นิยม is pronounced niH yohmM 99.99999 percent of the time. I have never heard of niH yaH maH in my entire life. Thanks to this forum. Now I know it exists.

[dobadoy]

นิยม is pronounced niH yohmM 99.99999 percent of the time. I have never heard of niH yaH maH in my entire life. Thanks to this forum. Now I know it exists.

I guess I'm missing the joke there.

But just in case anyone's getting confused นิยม as a single word is NEVER pronounced with three syllables. When it appears as a prefix to a longer word the inherent vowel sound between two consonants may be sounded out.

[anchan42]

นิยม is pronounced niH yohmM 99.99999 percent of the time. I have never heard of niH yaH maH in my entire life. Thanks to this forum. Now I know it exists.

I guess I'm missing the joke there.

But just in case anyone's getting confused นิยม as a single word is NEVER pronounced with three syllables. When it appears as a prefix to a longer word the inherent vowel sound between two consonants may be sounded out.

Well. I have also never heard of niH yaH maH as a prefix or compound words. There was a brand of tooth paste(powder actually) called วิเศษณ์นิยม which still pronounced niH yohmM. niH yaH maH has to be for a very specific field, linguistic maybe and definitely not for spoken language.

Perhaps somebody can list out the words that has นิยม pronounced as niH yaH maH. Woul be interresting.

Edited March 31, 2010 by anchan42

[anchan42]

I believe that this question is not one of correct or incorrect pronunciation based on the standards set by the Royal Institute or what the RI provides with respect to any individual word. Rather, what we are seeing is a Thai version of "clipping" (a word formed by dropping one or more syllables from a polysyllabic word) or "elision" (the omission of a sound in pronunciation).

Thus, in Thai speech "มหาวิทยาลัย" becomes "มหา-ลัย"; "พิจารณา" becomes "พิด-ณา"; and "รัฐธรรมนูญ" becomes "รัฐ-นูญ".

Perhaps simplification in speech is a process which occurs slowly over time or, perhaps, it is like the theory of "punctuated equilibrium" in evolution whereby catastrophic changes occur after long periods of stasis. Such a change with respect to language may be underway now with "SMS", "Twitter", and "Internet" English dramatically disrupting our various mother tongues taught by our respective English teachers.

What do you think?

มหา-ลัย acceptable for informal situation

พิด-ณา would give me a cringe. I know some people do it but it sound lazy and wrong.

รัฐ-นูญ Never heard anybody do that before.

[DavidHouston]

I believe that this question is not one of correct or incorrect pronunciation based on the standards set by the Royal Institute or what the RI provides with respect to any individual word. Rather, what we are seeing is a Thai version of "clipping" (a word formed by dropping one or more syllables from a polysyllabic word) or "elision" (the omission of a sound in pronunciation).

Thus, in Thai speech "มหาวิทยาลัย" becomes "มหา-ลัย"; "พิจารณา" becomes "พิด-ณา"; and "รัฐธรรมนูญ" becomes "รัฐ-นูญ".

Perhaps simplification in speech is a process which occurs slowly over time or, perhaps, it is like the theory of "punctuated equilibrium" in evolution whereby catastrophic changes occur after long periods of stasis. Such a change with respect to language may be underway now with "SMS", "Twitter", and "Internet" English dramatically disrupting our various mother tongues taught by our respective English teachers.

What do you think?

มหา-ลัย acceptable for informal situation

พิด-ณา would give me a cringe. I know some people do it but it sound lazy and wrong.

รัฐ-นูญ Never heard anybody do that before.

For these, and more of the same, listen to Parliament Radio, 99.25, in Phuket. Other areas of the country broadcast on different frequencies. I will admit, however, that old Thai guys, such as members of Parliament, tend to be sloppier in their speech patterns than most others.

[dobadoy]

นิยม is pronounced niH yohmM 99.99999 percent of the time. I have never heard of niH yaH maH in my entire life. Thanks to this forum. Now I know it exists.

I guess I'm missing the joke there.

But just in case anyone's getting confused นิยม as a single word is NEVER pronounced with three syllables. When it appears as a prefix to a longer word the inherent vowel sound between two consonants may be sounded out.

Well. I have also never heard of niH yaH maH as a prefix or compound words. There was a brand of tooth paste(powder actually) called วิเศษณ์นิยม which still pronounced niH yohmM. niH yaH maH has to be for a very specific field, linguistic maybe and definitely not for spoken language.

Perhaps somebody can list out the words that has นิยม pronounced as niH yaH maH. Woul be interresting.

Me neither. I was just giving the nod to the scholars who said so further up the thread. I'm not good on formal Thai. Seems to me the implicit vowel rule makes sense in a compund word, but I can't think of a word with นิยม as a prefix in any case.

Edited March 31, 2010 by dobadoy

[DavidHouston]

New Model Thai-English Dictionary, compiled by So Sethaputra, Volume I, Fifth Edition, Watana Panich Pres Co. Ltd., 1984 (first published 1965), page 500:

"นิยม (นิ-ยะ-มะ) a. demonstrative (adjective, pronoun) in grammar"

Thai-language.com

นิยมวิเศษณ์ นิ-ยะ-มะ-วิ-เสด [Thai grammar] demonstrative modifier

[yoot]

There are three compound words start with นิยม but only two pronounced as นิ-ยะ-มะ.

นิยมนิยาย (certainty) - นิ-ยม-นิ-ยาย

นิยมวิเศษณ์(demonstrative modifier) - นิ-ยะ-มะ-วิ-เสด

นิยมสรรพนาม(demonstrative pronoun) - นิ-ยะ-มะ-สับ-พะ-นาม

[dobadoy]

Great scholarship there guys, truly appreciated.

Forgive my stumbling ignorance in your field, but aren't these names for demonstrative modifiers altogether different words whose first few letters share the same spelling as the whole word นิยม ?

ืNot that it matters a squat, just bringing it back to the OP's question.

[yoot]

Forgive my stumbling ignorance in your field, but aren't these names for demonstrative modifiers altogether different words whose first few letters share the same spelling as the whole word นิยม ?

Let's see the definition of each words.

นิยม - v. to admire, to favour, to like, to accept popularly, to esteem. n. S. P. determination.((น., ป., ส.) ความแน่ใจ, การกำหนด, ข้อจำกัด.) adj. popular.

นิยมวิเศษณ์ - นิยม+วิเศษณ์ (น.) คำวิเศษณ์ที่แสดงขอบเขตของความหมายชัดเจน

นิยมสรรพนาม - นิยม+สรรพนาม - (น.) สรรพนาม ที่ใช้แทนนามแสดงให้รู้กำหนดแน่นอน

"แสดงขอบเขตของความหมายชัดเจน" and "แสดงให้รู้กำหนดแน่นอน" are surely from the definition of the word "นิยม", so, both นิยมวิเศษณ์ and นิยมสรรพนาม are compound words which have 'นิยม' as a prefix.