Thai Reds Refuse More Talks, Plan Fresh Weekend Demo

[bangkokrick]

Jatuporn said the red shirts' only position was that the government dissolved the Parliament within 15 days. If the government agreed to this, the third round of talk will take place.

Jatuporn has warned the prime minister not to bring soldiers in as it would worsen the situation and Abhisit himself will become a dictator.

Is this guy for real.

Cheers, Rick

[pimay11]

I don't think so. For the first time - at least since the onset of the PAD protests all those years ago - they managed to bring the PM to the negotiating table in a televised 'debate'.

That was hardly a laughing matter for Abhisit and the govenment.

But don't you think the reds have lost support because they have stopped those negotiations?

The reds wouldn't have *gained* any supporters by rejecting the offer.

There would be red supporters out there that have basically said "we got something, now lets go home."

The red supporters do not have a clue as to what is the root cuse of this fiasco i.e. Khun T wants his money back. The guy who works for me here in Issan has eight extended family members who have been in the Bangkok red rallies for three weeks. They each receive 500 B a day plus free food and transportation to Bangkok. Here they would be making 150/200 B a day. It is economics for these people. They want to come home but can't afford to as they are making three time as much waving clappers and cheering. Sad but true.

I agree. But to say (and I quote you): "The red supporters do not have a clue as to what is the root cuse of this fiasco i.e. Khun T wants his money back." is too simple.

I believe this protest isn't solely about Thaksin and his money. I don't think I would be exagerating if I stated that the majority of Red-Shirts are indeed aware of the wider economic and social implications of the movement and the desire for political change and reform.

Of course - there are undoubtedly those at the protest site whose only concern is their own personal well-being and finances and who don't give a fig about anyone or anything except themselves and where their next lovely crisp 500 baht note is coming from.

Giving you the benifit of the doubt if you are correct in your theory of the majority of the reds desiring political change and reform, pray do tell why there has not been one proposal from the red leaders for reform such as ways to increase farmers income, decrease poor people debts, increase exports, decrease unemployment, on and on? The red leaders only know, do and say what they are instructed from the boss on the run. Am I wrong? If so please correct me.

[anotherpeter]

I agree. But to say (and I quote you): "The red supporters do not have a clue as to what is the root cuse of this fiasco i.e. Khun T wants his money back." is too simple.

I believe this protest isn't solely about Thaksin and his money. I don't think I would be exagerating if I stated that the majority of Red-Shirts are indeed aware of the wider economic and social implications of the movement and the desire for political change and reform.

Of course - there are undoubtedly those at the protest site whose only concern is their own personal well-being and finances and who don't give a fig about anyone or anything except themselves and where their next lovely crisp 500 baht note is coming from.

I started thinking I would basically agree with your first statement, but then reading it again, I can't.

I believe there are *some* protestors that are "aware of the wider economic and social implications of the movement and the desire for political change and reform."

But I think a majority wouldn't have a clue what it's all about. They believe that Thaksin *looked after them* and they believe that no one else has or can. I mean they are only interested in their immediate surroundings - living day to day.

They have a desire for political change - back to Thaksin. But they don't understand how politics/democracy works, so they're not looking for reform.

I agree that a majority of red supporters want a better deal for the poor. Some don't even want Thaksin involved.

Unfortunately, the red leaders make it all about Thaksin.

If it was only about the poor, then the negotiations would have been about doing something for the poor.

If it was about democracy, the negotiations would have been about people having a say in the changes to the constitution (which is what the government is advocating).

All they want is to get Thaksin back here and get his money back.

[bulmercke]

I don't think so. For the first time - at least since the onset of the PAD protests all those years ago - they managed to bring the PM to the negotiating table in a televised 'debate'.

That was hardly a laughing matter for Abhisit and the govenment.

But don't you think the reds have lost support because they have stopped those negotiations?

The reds wouldn't have *gained* any supporters by rejecting the offer.

There would be red supporters out there that have basically said "we got something, now lets go home."

Nine months for the Reds is an unrealistically long time to wait - which is what Abhisit was prepared to offer.

They might as well wait for the next election to come round which is not that long after this date!

There was an impasse in the talks and I think both sides realised that neither side was going to budge. I think the vast majority of the Reds supporters realised this. And anyway - they believe they've got the government on the run - so why settle for much less than what they want - the immediate dissoulution of the house.

And also. Who really stopped the negotiations? Can you realistically point the finger at any one side?

Nine months is incredibly realistic globally, and still too soon here given the referendum requirement. If there is no referendum there'll simply be more and more protests after this election - that's a given.

When the protests started they done a half-decent job of keeping a lid on protesters being paid with all their signs in Thai and English and what not. It's clearly getting more difficult to do that now given the numbers of people they want involved. Following the televised so-called "debate" and the rumors emerging about payments received by protesters, this "democratic movement" sounds increasingly like a rent-a-mob in bulk - as per usual.

This referendum requirement is a red-herring that was thrown by the government into the basket of things to consider in order to obfuscate and delay the Reds demands. Well - that's my take on it.

Basically the Reds don't see this government as being democratically elected nor in a position to dictate to them terms. Hence the breakdown in talks.

In fact - as The Nation points out today - they weren't really talks/negotiations in the proper sense. More like an opportunity for each side to make the other side look as bad as possible - and throw as much dirt as possible in the process.

Real talks/negotiations aren't conducted in this manner generally. There appeared to be no process or order involved in the negotiations. But then again This Is Thailand folks!

[rogerdee123]

Well the Govt offered to hold elections in 9 months instead of 1 year and nine months. That seems to me to be a significant compromise and concession from the Govt. The Reds haven't come back with any counter offer at all. Their unreasonable 2-week demand was their original position prior to the negotiations.

Veera made the comment in the negotiations that academics had said elections could be held in 3 months but that didn't materialize into a counter offer from the Red side.

Although I don't really think elections will solve things now either, I think the Reds would gain credibility if they came back with a counter offer of 3 months or even 2 months (Chavalit's recent ramblings). At least it would make them look more reasonable and then put the ball back in the Government's court to reject it or respond. But the Reds (and Thaksin) won't agree to that. It's clear to me like everyone else they either have no intention to negotiate or are so lacking leadership or conflicted among themselves they can't make decisions.

I'm convinced that the result is that momentum or inertia or lack of ideas or whatever is leading them to the all or nothing showdown and I believe that they will get nothing. Or I think a coup is still not impossible for which they will be losers like everyone else. Thaksin has proven by his actions he also doesn't know when to quit while he is ahead.

I think the Govt would be very clever, as Abhisit has suggested, to call a nationwide election for the whole country to vote on whether to disolve the Govt and have elections immediately or at the end of the year OR at the end of 2011 as per original schedule. Actually this should be done in parliament but the Reds will bitch and moan that the Parliament is not legal or some other such. The nation-wide referendum would put a stop to all this BS about the reds have 20 million supporters.

To those who think all the reds will go home for Songkran, although I wish I could believe it, I guess you weren't here in Bangkok last year.

Also one more point I will make before trying to ignor this forum for a few days is ..... there are a few trolls in this forum ... so let's not lose our cool over-reacting to the more idiotic comments being made. I think most of us know who the idiots are here.

[anotherpeter]

This referendum requirement is a red-herring that was thrown by the government into the basket of things to consider in order to obfuscate and delay the Reds demands. Well - that's my take on it.

Basically the Reds don't see this government as being democratically elected nor in a position to dictate to them terms. Hence the breakdown in talks.

In fact - as The Nation points out today - they weren't really talks/negotiations in the proper sense. More like an opportunity for each side to make the other side look as bad as possible - and throw as much dirt as possible in the process.

Real talks/negotiations aren't conducted in this manner generally. There appeared to be no process or order involved in the negotiations. But then again This Is Thailand folks!

Don't you think the 9 months is a compromise from the 21 months that it should be?

[bulmercke]

Jatuporn said the red shirts' only position was that the government dissolved the Parliament within 15 days. If the government agreed to this, the third round of talk will take place.

Jatuporn has warned the prime minister not to bring soldiers in as it would worsen the situation and Abhisit himself will become a dictator.

Is this guy for real.

Cheers, Rick

Well Rick - Jatuporn is clearly raising the stakes now whether you agree with him or not.

I think it's called brinkmanship - the policy of maneuvering a risky situation to the limits of safety.

[Chaimai]

This referendum requirement is a red-herring that was thrown by the government into the basket of things to consider in order to obfuscate and delay the Reds demands. Well - that's my take on it.

Basically the Reds don't see this government as being democratically elected nor in a position to dictate to them terms. Hence the breakdown in talks.

In fact - as The Nation points out today - they weren't really talks/negotiations in the proper sense. More like an opportunity for each side to make the other side look as bad as possible - and throw as much dirt as possible in the process.

Real talks/negotiations aren't conducted in this manner generally. There appeared to be no process or order involved in the negotiations. But then again This Is Thailand folks!

Then why did the reds bother to attend the meetings. The government were the clear winners (as they were always going to be).

Only the government appeared constructive. In offering an early election they actually 'gave' something (a necessary part in any 'negotiations'). A few thousand protesters and a bit of blood-letting was never going to force the dissolution of government that seems to grow in strength as time goes on. I genuinely believe Abhisit to be concilliatory and, if handled properly, can leave a better political foundation on which to hold the next election. If that can be this year it should be enough for the reds. I think Abhisit would also take on the responsibility of ensuring (?) free and fair elections - as far as possible......

Just leaves Thaksin to be further disenfranchised and democracy begins to have a greater chance of success.

[Thai at Heart]

This referendum requirement is a red-herring that was thrown by the government into the basket of things to consider in order to obfuscate and delay the Reds demands. Well - that's my take on it.

Basically the Reds don't see this government as being democratically elected nor in a position to dictate to them terms. Hence the breakdown in talks.

In fact - as The Nation points out today - they weren't really talks/negotiations in the proper sense. More like an opportunity for each side to make the other side look as bad as possible - and throw as much dirt as possible in the process.

Real talks/negotiations aren't conducted in this manner generally. There appeared to be no process or order involved in the negotiations. But then again This Is Thailand folks!

Negotiations per se, can never be carried out in public anyway. This was grandstanding, not negotiating. People were making their cases and explaining their views to the public, not negotiating. Negotiating requires give and take, then throw in the issue of face and it gets even less likely in public view.

What did anyone expect? They all sit down, the reds say "Dissolve Parliament" and Abhisit says "Yes" and everyone goes home?

[traderjm]

Giving you the benifit of the doubt if you are correct in your theory of the majority of the reds desiring political change and reform, pray do tell why there has not been one proposal from the red leaders for reform such as ways to increase farmers income, decrease poor people debts, increase exports, decrease unemployment, on and on? The red leaders only know, do and say what they are instructed from the boss on the run. Am I wrong? If so please correct me.

No need to correct you, you are in fact quite right. I will note that there is NEVER a counter proposal from the REDs on how to fix the problems. Just more we want this (code for Mr. T wants this) or that when we want it. It does speak to how poorly educated so many of the mob is if they can sit through those "debates" and afterwards not go running home as fast as possible. They clearly have been supporting some mental midgets. I am not yellow nor red, the Yellow mess cost me a ton of business when it happened and I had no love loss for them either at the time. But this whole red mess this time around is just beyond stupid that these people are in such dire straights that they would allow themselves to be used like this... or worse yet not even understand that they are being used.

[webfact]

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Saturday red shirts mass rally to be biggest ever

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