Swirl Marks On Black Paint Job-

[Svenn]

i have an 8 month old black honda that i immediately applied a couple layers of wax to when i bought it. i washed it by hand, but did one drive-through washer with automatic rollers. Now when the whole thing's dry, it doesn't have the sparkling luster like it did 8 months ago, and it has swirl marks... are the marks in the wax and does it just mean i should apply a new layer? Or are they in the paint and i need to buy a special product? everything i had been using was turtlewax. thanks.

[neverdie]

Was the polish you applied to the car, 'Clear coat safe' ?

[MoonRiverOasis]

does it just mean i should apply a new layer? Or are they in the paint and i need to buy a special product?

Firstly, the wax you applied 8 months ago is now well and truly gone. I've been waxing cars here in Thailand for > 8 years, and I even the best-of-the-best struggle to maintain a protective layer beyond 8 weeks - forget about whatever claims are made on the bottle

If your swirls aren't too bad, applying a fresh layer of wax may be enough to hide them for a few weeks, but they'll slowly re-appear as the wax layer deteriorates. Still, if you're prepared to get into a more regular paint maintenace schedule this may solve the problem. (and it'll show you clearly how long wax doesn't last too )

To actually fix the swirls you will need to use specialized products however - by definition a "wax" does not have any abrasive or cutting power - which is precisely what you need in order to correct the swirls. The problem here is knowing the correct product to use - you need to choose one that has enough cutting power to correct the problem (without breaking your back), but not so much that it creates new ones.

It's probably best to take the car to a specilized auto detailing center to get it done, as it will save you the backache and expense (good surface finishing products aren't cheap). Still, if you'd like to give it a go yourself and don't mind buying more product than what you'll actually need just for this one job, my recommendation would be something from Meguiars, which is readily available (albeit pricey) online in Thailand.

Here's a link to some relevant products:

http://www.meguiars.co.th/message/?MID=3&a...amp;page=bycate

Note that the correct order from "lightest cut" to "heaviest cut" is as follows:

* Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner (zero cut, but does have great "filling" qualities)

* Swirl X (Probably your best choice)

* Scratch X (For heavier defects - not recommended for swirls on dark paint finishes)

* Ultimate Compound (for old, heavily deteriorated finishes only)

Edited March 31, 2010 by MoonRiverOasis

[Svenn]

^Thanks for the detailed info. I'm going to get the Swirl X and then add a fresh layer of wax. I really hope it's not late to get it back to its original luster. Is there something else I should apply before or after the wax for extra protection, or to get a deeper glossy look?

[MoonRiverOasis]

^Thanks for the detailed info. I'm going to get the Swirl X and then add a fresh layer of wax. I really hope it's not late to get it back to its original luster. Is there something else I should apply before or after the wax for extra protection, or to get a deeper glossy look?

It all depends on how far you want to go, both in effort and in expense I guess.. If you're not afraid of the work, it's easy to get carried away in the quest for showcar spectacular results

Seeing as it's been 8 months since the last surface work, and the fact that it's a black car (which will therefore pay-back every bit of effort you put in), here's what I'd do:

1. Thorough wash using the two-bucket system (one for clean suds, the other with clean water for washing your mitt/sponge in-between sudsing)

2. Go over the entire surface with a clay bar to remove baked/stuck on junk that washing just can't remove.

3. Deep Crystal Paint cleaner to remove any old wax residue and bonded pollutants, and start filling in some defects.

4. Swirl X on the areas that still require attention after the cleaner.

5. Scratch X on the more heavily defected areas (e.g. in the door handle recesses, door sill areas, and any scrapes you might have)

6. A "pure polish" like Meguiars Deep Crystal Polish, or Meguiars #7 Show Car Glaze (the latter being the best).

7. A good synthetic sealant or wax. Meguiars Deep Crystal Carnauba, NXT 2.0 or #21 (the latter being the best).

You may not be as nuts about this stuff as me though, heh

If you want an easier regime that'll still get you 90% the result of what you'd achieve above, try this:

1. Thorough wash using the two-bucket system (one for clean suds, the other with clean water for washing your mitt/sponge in-between sudsing)

2. Deep Crystal Paint cleaner to remove any old wax residue and bonded pollutants, and start filling in some defects.

3. Swirl X on the areas that still require attention after the cleaner.

4. A good synthetic sealant or wax. Meguiars Deep Crystal Carnauba, NXT 2.0 or #21 (the latter being the best).

Edited March 31, 2010 by MoonRiverOasis

[Svenn]

6. A "pure polish" like Meguiars Deep Crystal Polish, or Meguiars #7 Show Car Glaze (the latter being the best).

No, I can get quite fanatical about it too, so step #6 above is something I definitely don't want to skip! Is the polish as hard as wax to apply or easier? I'm looking forward to this now... it is in fact the whole reason why i choose black... so I could get that extra shine.

[MoonRiverOasis]

No, I can get quite fanatical about it too, so step #6 above is something I definitely don't want to skip! Is the polish as hard as wax to apply or easier? I'm looking forward to this now... it is in fact the whole reason why i choose black... so I could get that extra shine.

It's a different application procedure, but about the same amount of effort..

You apply a polish one section at a time, buffing it off before it dries. However, with wax you apply it to the entire vehicle, then wait for it to cure (which can take anywhere from 1 hour to 12 hours) before buffing it off.

The great thing about doing the polishing stage is that you get to see the results straight away of course - which often leads us fanatics to adding extra coats, hehe

Do bear in mind that polish offers zero protection, and won't last more than a day or so on it's own, so has to be followed up by the wax on the same day to seal-in it's shine.

[Svenn]

The great thing about doing the polishing stage is that you get to see the results straight away of course - which often leads us fanatics to adding extra coats, hehe

Do extra coats of polish help? It's good to know these things because the instructions on car finish products are always vague, I assume because they want you to apply more than you have to...

[MoonRiverOasis]

The great thing about doing the polishing stage is that you get to see the results straight away of course - which often leads us fanatics to adding extra coats, hehe

Do extra coats of polish help? It's good to know these things because the instructions on car finish products are always vague, I assume because they want you to apply more than you have to...

That really depends on how much oxidization has crept into the paint, and in what level of detail you look at it..

On my cars which go through the 7-step detail every 3 months and get a monthly sealant application for maintenance (so practically zero oxidization), the difference on the 2nd coat is really only in the "depth" of the gloss, not the amount of gloss itself. On other cars that I've done for friends however, I've seen substantial improvements all the way to 3 coats. Horizontal surfaces like the hood (bonnet), roof and trunk (boot) will have oxidized the most, so will benefit more than say the doors.

The best way to tell is an extra coat is going to be worth the work is to apply another coat to one half of the hood and see if you can notice the difference..

On the topic of using product - the secret will all of these polishes and waxes is to apply as little product as possible - you're only aiming at adding microns to the surface, not millimeters, and less on means easier off. Even though I polish/wax two cars fairly often, I rarely buy a new bottle of product because it ran out - it's normally only replaced because after a couple of years the product has "gone off" from spending so much time being opened.

Edited March 31, 2010 by MoonRiverOasis

[stingray]

The great thing about doing the polishing stage is that you get to see the results straight away of course - which often leads us fanatics to adding extra coats, hehe

Do extra coats of polish help? It's good to know these things because the instructions on car finish products are always vague, I assume because they want you to apply more than you have to...

That really depends on how much oxidization has crept into the paint, and in what level of detail you look at it..

On my cars which go through the 7-step detail every 3 months and get a monthly sealant application for maintenance (so practically zero oxidization), the difference on the 2nd coat is really only in the "depth" of the gloss, not the amount of gloss itself. On other cars that I've done for friends however, I've seen substantial improvements all the way to 3 coats. Horizontal surfaces like the hood (bonnet), roof and trunk (boot) will have oxidized the most, so will benefit more than say the doors.

The best way to tell is an extra coat is going to be worth the work is to apply another coat to one half of the hood and see if you can notice the difference..

On the topic of using product - the secret will all of these polishes and waxes is to apply as little product as possible - you're only aiming at adding microns to the surface, not millimeters, and less on means easier off. Even though I polish/wax two cars fairly often, I rarely buy a new bottle of product because it ran out - it's normally only replaced because after a couple of years the product has "gone off" from spending so much time being opened.

Use: Eagle One Wet, Wax. It's the best for black color. Don't buy the "Wax and Polish" from them. Only the Wax.

[MoonRiverOasis]

Use: Eagle One Wet, Wax. It's the best for black color. Don't buy the "Wax and Polish" from them. Only the Wax.

I was wondering when someone would come in with an alternate recommendation

Eagle One do make some nice products, as do Mother's, Zaino, Chemical Guys etc.. Even Turtle's top-end wax is nice I haven't found a reliable source for any of these in Thailand yet though - do you have any leads?

[Donnyboy]

black is very nice when clean, but shows up the slightest bit of dirt

i went with silver which is better

[Svenn]

Well I did it today MoonRiver, all I had was a generic turtle wax polish, scratch x, and a turtle wax wax. The Scratch X seemed oddly ineffective... it wasn't until I applied the polish that the scratches seemed to go away. I had a big problem with lint, as I was using bath towels for the whole project, but I was more concerned with the car's overall appearance rather than the details. It definitely looks shinier and higher-class now, like when I first bought it. I'm wondering, should I apply an additional outer layer of polish on top of the wax each time I wash the car now?

Anyway, this is my first black car and I love it. It's just a cheap little honda but the glossy blackness makes it look so much classier. I'll definitely want to try some of those higher-end Meguiar products someday.

As a sidenote, scientists recently created the "blackest" material yet according to this article. It would be so awesome to have a car made out of that! http://www.world-science.net/othernews/080223_black.htm

Apparently the object on the left is normally seen as 'pitch black' to the naked eye, showing how dark the material on the right must be:

[Rdrokit]

In my life before Thailand I use to restore and show classic cars. Black is definitely the hardest color to make look good but once done nothing beats a black car. I have found that wax with polymers are best as they will fill in light scratches and swirl marks. Usually you will need a few coats. Below is a photo of my old pontiac. The paint job is about 4 years old but it has about 8 to 10 coats of polymer wax on it. And like a previous post said a wax jobs here in Thailand will last maybe 2 months. You will have to work to keep your black car looking good but it is worth it if you want a good looking car.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Rdrokit

[MoonRiverOasis]

Well I did it today MoonRiver, all I had was a generic turtle wax polish, scratch x, and a turtle wax wax. The Scratch X seemed oddly ineffective... it wasn't until I applied the polish that the scratches seemed to go away. I had a big problem with lint, as I was using bath towels for the whole project, but I was more concerned with the car's overall appearance rather than the details. It definitely looks shinier and higher-class now, like when I first bought it. I'm wondering, should I apply an additional outer layer of polish on top of the wax each time I wash the car now?

Anyway, this is my first black car and I love it. It's just a cheap little honda but the glossy blackness makes it look so much classier. I'll definitely want to try some of those higher-end Meguiar products someday.

As a sidenote, scientists recently created the "blackest" material yet according to this article. It would be so awesome to have a car made out of that! http://www.world-science.net/othernews/080223_black.htm

Apparently the object on the left is normally seen as 'pitch black' to the naked eye, showing how dark the material on the right must be:

Good to hear

Both Swirl X and Scratch X require a different application method to polishes and waxes. Both of these products are "diminishing abrasives" - fresh from the bottle they have high cutting power, but as you work the product in the abrasives break down until eventually they're almost a straight polish.

The idea with these products is to work a very small area at a time - no bigger than say a quarter of a door panel. Squirt a 10-Baht-Coin sized dollop onto your polishing rag, then work it around the 15" sq. area until your've worked it from cutting to polishing - this equates to about 40-60 seconds of work per section, depending on how serious the defects are. If the swirls/scratches persist, apply it a 2nd time using the same technique. As with a polish, you don't want the product to dry on the surface, so as you finish each section, use a clean buffing cloth to remove the residue.

Here's some photos of a friend's Z3 I worked on a few years back:

50/50 Shot of the hood. The left side is how the car came to me, the right after applying one application of Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner, and one application of Swirl X:

And some after shots:

Here's a couple of shots of my wife's first car These were taken at 2.5 years of age (the day we sold it in fact). This car had the 7-step treatment every 3 months with a monthly wax top-up inbetween, and a weekly wash:

That black you linked to is amazing by the way

[Svenn]

That's amazing... unfortunately i still don't fee like my car has that level of reflection. Can I put an additional polish or maybe second coat of wax to improve it? Thanks for the Scratch X tips, I really wish they'd put that level of detail on the bottle rather than the "apply then wipe off" brief instructions they have

[MoonRiverOasis]

That's amazing... unfortunately i still don't fee like my car has that level of reflection. Can I put an additional polish or maybe second coat of wax to improve it? Thanks for the Scratch X tips, I really wish they'd put that level of detail on the bottle rather than the "apply then wipe off" brief instructions they have

In much the same way as painting, the end result of polishing/waxing can be very dependant on the level of surface preparation you put in. In order to get the best results it's vital that you're working with a super clean surface to begin with - that's where clay bars and chemical cleaners come in. No matter how well or often you wash your car, it's impossible to remove all of the contaminants - well, impossible without putting in so much pressure that you'd be damaging the surface..

I'd imagine that it's baked on pollutants and/or build-ups of old wax that are effecting your results. Wax deteriorates faster is some areas than others, and loses it's clarity over time. Old wax also inhibits the ability of new polish/wax to get into the surface too (after all, that's what it's for - creating a sealed protective layer).

The 7-step system is really all I can recommend as a guaranteed way to achieve the best possible result.

[CDNinKS]

Great info MRO, have learned a lot. BTW, I have found that plain old WD-40, is the best at easily removing road tar. A small squirt and the tar just melts off.

[jcon]

MoonRiverOasis, your work is fantastic!

Do you live in Bankgok? Do you do interior detailing as well? Offering services?

Jet black is very hard to take care of - I stick to metallic black and a bucket of dish soap nowadays... sadly the heat is just killer here and I don't have a temperature-controlled garage... which I guess is a good thing otherwise I'd be in there all day with my cars!

Haven't had a wax in 6 months, still decent IMO (but nothing like that Z3...):

Edited April 15, 2010 by jcon