Anti-Red Shirts Protest Grows

[johncitizen]

Samak is dead, and he is not the Red Shirts leader. You need to get past your hatred of Thaksin (like Weng and others have) and see what is really at stake here.

[hammered]

And regarding why the last picture speaks volumes, I refer you to the Thammasat massacre, when angry mobs of "deputized" civilians led by the military descended upon the students, who were accused of being "enemies of the nation, religion and the monarchy" (sound familiar?) and slaughtered hundreds, if not thousands of them.

Thousands? How can that be? Samak said only one life was lost.

Samak was too busy on the radio earning his place in the next military government to notice what was happening

[jdinasia]

Samak is dead, and he is not the Red Shirts leader. You need to get past your hatred of Thaksin (like Weng and others have) and see what is really at stake here.

LOL, ummmm most of us that know what happened under Thaksin know what is really at stake here.

Were you at the protests, I'd love to see your pictures

[anotherpeter]

Samak is dead, and he is not the Red Shirts leader. You need to get past your hatred of Thaksin (like Weng and others have) and see what is really at stake here.

What is at stake here? The dictatorship of Thaksin??

If the red shirts separated themselves from Thaksin, I would have more sympathy for their cause. But at this stage all I see in the red shirts rhetoric is that it is all about Thaksin, and it is only about Thaksin.

[jdinasia]

Dr. Weng for one. I know of several others in more junior leadership positions, but I won't name them here.

They participated in the original protests against Thaksin but jumped ship when the military coup happened.

They do not support Thaksin, but they reject military dictatorship as an alternative. They are the true believers of democracy in Thailand, and I have the utmost respect for them.

LOL

If they are junior "leaders" of the reds why would you not name them publicly?

[johndpoole]

Can you imagine this kind of attack happening to another nation's leader and not seeing those folks run over or shot down immediately by guards and police? This current government has shown incredible restraint against these Reds considering what their group has done in the very recent past.

But what blows my mind is these Reds had the chance to walk away as winners but because their leaders have no concern over Thailand or any cause to support but their own and that of the convicted fugutive they support, they will lose in the long run and actually have already lost. What a bunch of idiots.

[hammered]

I remember when Thaksin was in power and faced the PAD protests he organized his own pro-government demo and had governors meet targets of people to bus in and back. It was all highly organised and smooth. I wonder why the current lot havent done such a thing? Not that Im advocating it

[rixalex]

Samak is dead, and he is not the Red Shirts leader.

Red shirt leader is Thaksin. PPP was Thaksin's party. PPP was led by Samak

You need to get past your hatred of Thaksin (like Weng and others have) and see what is really at stake here.

What is at stake is Thaksin's future. Whether you love him or hate him, that much is very obvious to all but the deeply deluded.

[lannarebirth]

What is at stake here? The dictatorship of Thaksin??

All the marbles. Think "Thaksin Dynasty".

[webfact]

post containing graphic image and reply to it deleted

[frodo]

Clutching straws for sure.

I have yet to hear pink or yellow leaders calling for violence. UDD leaders are. Just look at the comments from Arisiman, Sae Daeng, and even Jatuporn.

Even while the PM's car was attacked by the reds last year, these leaders stood there and did nothing. When confronted this past week, all Jatuporn could do was glare. The truth hurts.

If an incident such as that photo were to happen again, I hope it will not, it would be at the hands of the reds. Not only has history proven this by their own actions less than a year ago, but the words of the leaders during the past weeks have been anything but peaceful.

[johndpoole]

Samak is dead, and he is not the Red Shirts leader. You need to get past your hatred of Thaksin (like Weng and others have) and see what is really at stake here.

What is at stake here? The dictatorship of Thaksin??

If the red shirts separated themselves from Thaksin, I would have more sympathy for their cause. But at this stage all I see in the red shirts rhetoric is that it is all about Thaksin, and it is only about Thaksin.

What is there cause? They got everything they wanted. Did they really believe they could get elections and a break-up of government in 15-days?????????? They were offered 9-months for their demands to be met and walked away. What reasonable person with Thailand in mind, would not see this is a win for them ... if they accepted it.

[hammered]

Samak is dead, and he is not the Red Shirts leader.

Red shirt leader is Thaksin. PPP was Thaksin's party. PPP was led by Samak

You need to get past your hatred of Thaksin (like Weng and others have) and see what is really at stake here.

What is at stake is Thaksin's future. Whether you love him or hate him, that much is very obvious to all but the deeply deluded.

Interesting point you make about Thaklsin being the red shirt leader, a poit that is hotly denied by the UDD. Whilst enjoying a nice cup of coffee early this morning I almost had a coronary while reading the column by the relative of the PM in the unmentionable media source. He even as a red supporter and former TRT spokesperson clearly stated in his column that Thaksin was the real red leader. It isnt often that you see that openly stated in writing by someone form that side.

[johncitizen]

Give it time mate, give it time.

Thaksin will fade when the Red Shirts have the opportunity to elect a different leader to look up to.

If the anti-Thaksin crowd really wanted him out of the picture, they would stop demonising him in the media (which only serves to strengthen the sense of injustice the Reds feel on his behalf), cut a deal with him, and allow someone else to take his place.

But we both know that is the last thing the PAD wants: Thaksin is a useful "wedge issue." The instant he's out of the picture is the instant Sondhi, ASTV and the PAD lose all relevance and support from moderates, NGO's and democrats.

EDIT:

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You deleted the picture? That picture demonstrates vital part of Thai history that should NEVER be forgotten.

This is historical revisionism at its worst, and a very cynical move on the part of the Thaivisa mods.

Are you going to delete this post as well in the interests of preserving a one-sided debate? Is ThaiVisa staffed by the MICT crew now?

Disgraceful.

Edited April 2, 2010 by johncitizen

[johndpoole]

I remember when Thaksin was in power and faced the PAD protests he organized his own pro-government demo and had governors meet targets of people to bus in and back. It was all highly organised and smooth. I wonder why the current lot havent done such a thing? Not that Im advocating it

Different mentality, morals and motivations.

The current government is also not authorizing police to commit summary executions of individuals such as that happened to thousands of folks under Thaksin.

[hammered]

Give it time mate, give it time.

Thaksin will fade when the Red Shirts have the opportunity to elect a different leader to look up to.

If the anti-Thaksin crowd really wanted him out of the picture, they would stop demonising him in the media (which only serves to strengthen the sense of injustice the Reds feel on his behalf), cut a deal with him, and allow someone else to take his place.

But we both know that is the last thing the PAD wants: Thaksin is a useful "wedge issue." The instant he's out of the picture is the instant Sondhi, ASTV and the PAD lose all relevance and support from moderates, NGO's and democrats.

EDIT:

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You deleted the picture? That picture demonstrates vital part of Thai history that should NEVER be forgotten.

This is historical revisionism at its worst, and a very cynical move on the part of the Thaivisa mods.

Are you going to delete this post as well in the interests of preserving a one-sided debate? Is ThaiVisa staffed by the MICT crew now?

Disgraceful.

I agree that right now everyone needs Thaksin or cant afford to have him disappear

[johndpoole]

Disgraceful.

Putting politics aside for a moment ... you should go back and edit this post as it is against the rules to comment "publicly" on a moderator's actions. You need to direct this kind of thing in a private email to the Mod or ThaiVisa. Just a heads up before the official warning comes if you don't delete those comments.

Edited April 2, 2010 by johndpoole

[mca]

If you're one of the lucky ones you might even receive a reply.

[johncitizen]

No. I'm happy that at least the two of you saw my comments. Keeping the truth behind closed doors is exactly what is wrong with this country, and I won't stand for it anymore.

Thailand needs to take a page out of Germany's book, and make it confront its own history if it doesn't want it to repeat itself.

If I am banned for these comments, so be it. It is clear that this forum places no stock in open, honest debate anyway.

Good luck to you both and I pray that true democracy will come to Thailand one day.

[steveromagnino]

Give it time mate, give it time.

Thaksin will fade when the Red Shirts have the opportunity to elect a different leader to look up to.

So given that the red shirt movement (which is basically not so different to TRT or PPP or PT) have now had since 2006 when Thaksin resigned as PM in February (or might be Jan) can you please shortlist all the candidates (you can also list the banned 111 as well, members of that group) who you think they believe are:

- capable of actually leading the country with actual policy, strategy, etc

- popular to get elected

- capable of controlling the jao por network which makes up a large chunk of the TRT/PPP/PT vote base

- capable of controlling the intellectuals who used to be part of TRT (but are now perhaps described as 'up for grabs')

for PM?

Can you further list which of these people you have shortlisted are capable of unilaterally changing the constitution to pardon Thaksin without causing a riot/massive civil unrest which is the underlying single point that is currently causing the reds and the govt to disagree? We know Samak didn't manage it. So which of the people you list could, which is what the red shirts are fighting for the opportunity to do?

Because, at least from the red shirts I speak to, most of them openly state that none of the current 3 leaders are actually people they want to run anything. So if not Veera, Jatuporn and Dr Weng.....and given your belief that THaksin will fade.....then who?

It should be easy, after all, the question is sitting to be answered for 4 years now. We know Somchai was a bozo, Samak was hopeless and did nothing. Who else is there?

10 points to suggest Chalerm or Chavalit. ;_)

Edited April 2, 2010 by steveromagnino

[johndpoole]

No. I'm happy that at least the two of you saw my comments. Keeping the truth behind closed doors is exactly what is wrong with this country, and I won't stand for it anymore.

Thailand needs to take a page out of Germany's book, and make it confront its own history if it doesn't want it to repeat itself.

If I am banned for these comments, so be it. It is clear that this forum places no stock in open, honest debate anyway.

Good luck to you both and I pray that true democracy will come to Thailand one day.

Dude, you took a picture of a lynching and posted here trying to tie it to current unrest ... that is an incredible stretch. Now you are trying to compare things to the holocaust and Hitler.

What country doesn't have a violent past? I think Thailand is well beyond lynching.

[johncitizen]

I sincerely doubt that. The veneer of civilisation remains very thin in Thailand, and the culture of violence and allowing injustice/violence to occur will take a long time to dismantle. You are living in a country where sexual deviancy, murder, revenge, corruption, authoritarianism, secrecy etc. pervades every level of society, especially the uppermost levels. Have you ever seen a drunk/stoned Thai man when he is really angry? Have you ever seen the look in a Thai woman's eyes when she is cheated on? Have you listened to the rhetoric of the royalists/nationalists when they speak about someone accused of LM?

Now tell me again that Thailand is past lynching.

Re: leadership, how about Jaturon, Suranand or Jakrapob (were he ever to return to the country.)?

Edited April 2, 2010 by johncitizen

[jdinasia]

No. I'm happy that at least the two of you saw my comments. Keeping the truth behind closed doors is exactly what is wrong with this country, and I won't stand for it anymore.

Thailand needs to take a page out of Germany's book, and make it confront its own history if it doesn't want it to repeat itself.

If I am banned for these comments, so be it. It is clear that this forum places no stock in open, honest debate anyway.

Good luck to you both and I pray that true democracy will come to Thailand one day.

Dude, you took a picture of a lynching and posted here trying to tie it to current unrest ... that is an incredible stretch. Now you are trying to compare things to the holocaust and Hitler.

What country doesn't have a violent past? I think Thailand is well beyond lynching.

I don't know --- under Thaksin we had 2500+++ extra-judicial murders that led Thaksin to speak out against both Democracy and the UN (though his proxy party did later appeal to the UN

[Netfan]

I remember when Thaksin was in power and faced the PAD protests he organized his own pro-government demo and had governors meet targets of people to bus in and back. It was all highly organised and smooth. I wonder why the current lot havent done such a thing? Not that Im advocating it

Different mentality, morals and motivations.

The current government is also not authorizing police to commit summary executions of individuals such as that happened to thousands of folks under Thaksin.

Lets not forget the thugs Thaksin sent out in the early, early days of demonstrations against him. They beat up a 65 or 75 year old man if I remember correctly.

[elcent]

There are only two options. The first one when just a few control everything it will turn out like this.

or "democracy ... "



Remember democracy can only work when we're all vigilant at all the time.

This applies to any nation

[Netfan]

Give it time mate, give it time.

Thaksin will fade when the Red Shirts have the opportunity to elect a different leader to look up to.

If the anti-Thaksin crowd really wanted him out of the picture, they would stop demonising him in the media (which only serves to strengthen the sense of injustice the Reds feel on his behalf), cut a deal with him, and allow someone else to take his place.

But we both know that is the last thing the PAD wants: Thaksin is a useful "wedge issue." The instant he's out of the picture is the instant Sondhi, ASTV and the PAD lose all relevance and support from moderates, NGO's and democrats.

EDIT:

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You deleted the picture? That picture demonstrates vital part of Thai history that should NEVER be forgotten.

This is historical revisionism at its worst, and a very cynical move on the part of the Thaivisa mods.

Are you going to delete this post as well in the interests of preserving a one-sided debate? Is ThaiVisa staffed by the MICT crew now?

Disgraceful.

Uh, you do realize who led the democracy movement to oust Suchinda in '92, don't you?

[hammered]

Give it time mate, give it time.

Thaksin will fade when the Red Shirts have the opportunity to elect a different leader to look up to.

So given that the red shirt movement (which is basically not so different to TRT or PPP or PT) have now had since 2006 when Thaksin resigned as PM in February (or might be Jan) can you please shortlist all the candidates (you can also list the banned 111 as well, members of that group) who you think they believe are:

- capable of actually leading the country with actual policy, strategy, etc

- popular to get elected

- capable of controlling the jao por network which makes up a large chunk of the TRT/PPP/PT vote base

- capable of controlling the intellectuals who used to be part of TRT (but are now perhaps described as 'up for grabs')

for PM?

Can you further list which of these people you have shortlisted are capable of unilaterally changing the constitution to pardon Thaksin without causing a riot/massive civil unrest which is the underlying single point that is currently causing the reds and the govt to disagree? We know Samak didn't manage it. So which of the people you list could, which is what the red shirts are fighting for the opportunity to do?

Because, at least from the red shirts I speak to, most of them openly state that none of the current 3 leaders are actually people they want to run anything. So if not Veera, Jatuporn and Dr Weng.....and given your belief that THaksin will fade.....then who?

It should be easy, after all, the question is sitting to be answered for 4 years now. We know Somchai was a bozo, Samak was hopeless and did nothing. Who else is there?

10 points to suggest Chalerm or Chavalit. ;_)

Chalerm wouldnt cut it. Chavalit is the only one who maybe could however if it even looked close he may well end up causing as coup. Even if he got the power he may well then just do a Samak and enjoy the power while doing nothing ot help Thaksin. The other problem with Chavalit is that the very thought of another of his governments would wreck business confidence. His own opinion of his talents overestimates them to an inordinate degree and he would stuff all th important ministries with complete fools whjo also happened to be his men as he did last time around and that alone brings us back to games to make sure he wouldnt beome PM

The question you ask is a good one though. Newin remains the very prodigal and likely never forgiven son.

[johndpoole]

Democracy is not always pretty and probably never pretty when starting down the road but that is why their is law and a constitution.

There is really nothing much different in terms of this when it comes to the USA and Bush becoming president in 2000. The supreme court basically put him into power and NOT the votes. In fact it was worse in the US because the Supreme Court ruled its decision was a one timely one off ruling and couldn't be used again. I don't believe Bush ever suggested creating or changing laws to prevent this kind of turmoil again as the current Thai government would like to do, with the help of all parties, before going outside the laws to call new elections and disband the government which would currently be against the law for him to do. Bush also didn't agree to have early elections to satisfy the MAJORITY of people who voted for him as the current Thai PM has done ... I can go on and on but the bottom line is there is a reason for laws and rules and just like the US constitution, the Thai ones can be changed and altered from lessons learned as well as changing times but it is not an easy thing to do.

Bottom line is it is time for the Reds to go home if they respect or have any concern for Thailand at all. They got what they wanted and what would be best for the country but clearly what they want (15 day...) is unrealistic and in nobody's (even their own) interest except possibly Thaksin's.

[hammered]

I sincerely doubt that. The veneer of civilisation remains very thin in Thailand, and the culture of violence and allowing injustice/violence to occur will take a long time to dismantle. You are living in a country where sexual deviancy, murder, revenge, corruption, authoritarianism, secrecy etc. pervades every level of society, especially the uppermost levels. Have you ever seen a drunk/stoned Thai man when he is really angry? Have you ever seen the look in a Thai woman's eyes when she is cheated on? Have you listened to the rhetoric of the royalists/nationalists when they speak about someone accused of LM?

Now tell me again that Thailand is past lynching.

Re: leadership, how about Jaturon, Suranand or Jakrapob (were he ever to return to the country.)?

I find myself agreeing with you again in the main statement.

Chatchuron isnt really popular enough and wont be able to control the godfathers. Suranand is a champagne type - good as a spokesperson but with no power. Jakrapob is linked to a faction with unacceptable ideas and that wont go down well with the base. In fact that kind of leadership may well result in what you talk about above. Chavalit is about as good as it gets unless Newin returns and is totally forgiven. That though looks unlikely all imho

[johndpoole]

I sincerely doubt that. The veneer of civilisation remains very thin in Thailand, and the culture of violence and allowing injustice/violence to occur will take a long time to dismantle. You are living in a country where sexual deviancy, murder, revenge, corruption, authoritarianism, secrecy etc. pervades every level of society, especially the uppermost levels. Have you ever seen a drunk/stoned Thai man when he is really angry? Have you ever seen the look in a Thai woman's eyes when she is cheated on? Have you listened to the rhetoric of the royalists/nationalists when they speak about someone accused of LM?

Now tell me again that Thailand is past lynching.

Re: leadership, how about Jaturon, Suranand or Jakrapob (were he ever to return to the country.)?

Have you ever been to the USA? Thailand is a much much much safer place for somebody to live. Nothing you mentioned is exclusive to Thailand and nothing you mentioned can be changed over night ... it is going to take time and the country is and has been moving in the right direction.

And as for the look in a Thai women's eye when you cheat on her ... please tell us all where we can go that women have no issue with being cheated on. ;-)

And what is LM .. sorry maybe I am just tired.

PS - Thailand is past lynching