New Guidelines To Punish Foreign Paedophilia Suspects

[pimay11]

Nice titling PUNISH THE SUSPECTS

Good point. We are (should be) innocent until proven guilty. But how many guys charged with this crime ever prove their innocence? Many of them are caught in the act. Sad but true!

???? where do you get this stat that many are caught in the act???? Do the police spy on the room until they see actual penetration ?

OK I restate. Some are caught in the act. Occasionally there is an article in the Nation or Bangkok Post of police entering a room in Pattaya where a guy is caught in the act with underage boys. Do a search of the paper and you will find these articles.

[farangpattaya]

First of all, I truly support the actions from the Thai government, but second....and it is written down: most sexual abuse of children is performed by locals.

Seizing a passport won't help much: just go to A police station and report your passport missing. They will make a report for you, and off you go to your Embassy for a new passport, unless of course you are a wanted person in your home country. Too bad!! Bye!!

The most important matter is, that the Thai government is willing to do everything to prevent children frombeing abused, but does the Thai government do more? I mean, the children who are working as a "social worker" are usually forced by financial circumstances to do so. Is the Thai government going to do something to improve these circumstances?

[johndpoole]

Ninety percent of sex crimes against children are committed by straight Thai men and women.

Source?

Just do the math and some research on the internet. Do some searches about child sex trade and hotels in Chinatown that only locals are allowed to frequent. Where do you think controls those kids washing winshields on the street and where do you think they end up and came from? There is a huge craving for young girls from the Thai locals that is satisfied by luring kids away from the parents (usually paid) in Laos and the North.

Even prostitution is a 90+ percent local issue when it comes to clients. Thais unlike others, will not be seen in public with a prostitute but you can be dam_n sure there are thousands upon thousands of non-descript houses of prostitution in compared to the few (count them on your hand) areas that non-Thais visit in all of Thailand when looking for a prostitute.

[neverdie]

Ninety percent of sex crimes against children are committed by straight Thai men and women.

Source?

Just do the math and some research on the internet. Do some searches about child sex trade and hotels in Chinatown that only locals are allowed to frequent. Where do you think controls those kids washing winshields on the street and where do you think they end up and came from? There is a huge craving for young girls from the Thai locals that is satisfied by luring kids away from the parents (usually paid) in Laos and the North.

Even prostitution is a 90+ percent local issue when it comes to clients. Thais unlike others, will not be seen in public with a prostitute but you can be dam_n sure there are thousands upon thousands of non-descript houses of prostitution in compared to the few (count them on your hand) areas that non-Thais visit in all of Thailand when looking for a prostitute.

John,

I'm not questioning what you are say, not doubting what your saying either, but unlike yourself, PB came out with a specific figure & I was wondering where it came from, he said, "90% of sex crimes against children are carried out by straight men and women".

I was wondering if there was some place where this figure originated from or was it more hyperbol. (Thats nothing directed at PB either).

[johndpoole]

Nice titling PUNISH THE SUSPECTS

Good point. We are (should be) innocent until proven guilty. But how many guys charged with this crime ever prove their innocence? Many of them are caught in the act. Sad but true!

???? where do you get this stat that many are caught in the act???? Do the police spy on the room until they see actual penetration ?

OK I restate. Some are caught in the act. Occasionally there is an article in the Nation or Bangkok Post of police entering a room in Pattaya where a guy is caught in the act with underage boys. Do a search of the paper and you will find these articles.

I suggest you restate saying that only a VERY VERY tiny number of pedophiles are caught in the act. And since your thread seemed to suggest most (if not are guilty) I would suggest you do some reading about police corruption in Thailand and how these scams are largely perpetrated on non-thais (money).

The point is that there is a reason we are supposed to presume all people innocent UNLESS proven guilty. Not sure your nationality or how old you are but you might want to read up about the McMartin Pre-School case before deciding on somebody's guilt before they have a chance to defend themselves.

[johndpoole]

Ninety percent of sex crimes against children are committed by straight Thai men and women.

Source?

Just do the math and some research on the internet. Do some searches about child sex trade and hotels in Chinatown that only locals are allowed to frequent. Where do you think controls those kids washing winshields on the street and where do you think they end up and came from? There is a huge craving for young girls from the Thai locals that is satisfied by luring kids away from the parents (usually paid) in Laos and the North.

Even prostitution is a 90+ percent local issue when it comes to clients. Thais unlike others, will not be seen in public with a prostitute but you can be dam_n sure there are thousands upon thousands of non-descript houses of prostitution in compared to the few (count them on your hand) areas that non-Thais visit in all of Thailand when looking for a prostitute.

John,

I'm not questioning what you are say, not doubting what your saying either, but unlike yourself, PB came out with a specific figure & I was wondering where it came from, he said, "90% of sex crimes against children are carried out by straight men and women".

I was wondering if there was some place where this figure originated from or was it more hyperbol. (Thats nothing directed at PB either).

Understood. I actually don't believe any official study was done to come up with these numbers but I would bet it is above 90% and would feel very comfortable making a wager on 90% or more. As for the straight men & women thing ... not sure about that but do know that many Thai men have a thing for young girls that is satisfied locally with the help of the mafia here.

I think it would actually be impossible to get any real stats on this given we are talking about Thailand where people can easily pay their way out of trouble, especially if the victim is a local and the person is willing to pay off the family. But as I mentioned a lot of the kids come from places like Laos and not sure the government even wants to deal with those issues (a victim from Laos) and why the locals get away with it as well as the fact the cops are paid off both locally to leave these places along as well as the cops actually transporting the kids down from the border. This I have read about a number of times and have heard about from locals.

[neverdie]

^thanks John, I would probably be horrified by the real figures, if they were actually known, these are sad issues. I guess, the figures are never going to be fully correct because they rely on cases being officially reported and based on some of the points you've raised and other issues, it highly unlikely that this will occurr.

Sickening stuff.

[johndpoole]

Sorry but I just get a little bothered by people getting worked up about this issue because it is usually an illogical and emotional response the "cut their balls off" crowd are giving.

The truth is right out there in numerous reports within at least the USA that the recidivism rates for child molesters is significantly lower than that of most other serious crimes. Yet, people want to believe these criminals are worse than a murder who by one action has taken away some kids father for life as well as somebody's brother and somebody's son all with one bullet and is for more likely to do it again if let out of prison.

It reminds me of the whole second hand smoke thing and people saying at one point it was worse to be the person near a smoker than the smoker himself. The whole dangers of 2nd hand smoke was based on a manipulated report by the insurance industry to get people to stop smoking because it does clearly effect the health of smokers. It is time for people to do some research before they believe what fanatics tell them or just use your common sense ... lock yourself in a room with 100 smokers for 2 days and the result will be you will smell like poop and maybe some watery eyes. Now try the same thing with a running car in garage for 15-minutes and you want to believe the guy next to you at the bar is killing you while you drive or walk down traffic packed streets breathing in car exhausts???

No doubt child molesting is a serious serious crime and one that is easy to become emotional about since it effects kids but wake up ... so do so many other crimes. What happens to a kid when their mother is raped and becomes a different person? Nothing ever gets fixed or solved with emotional responses.

In the US they are spending so much money on tracking sex offenders for life but those that want to re-offend do and will regardless. Those who don't find they can only live and work in specific areas that are over-run with other sex offenders (great idea).

Who is worse, the 45 year old drunk driver (who is probably 10x more likely to drive drunk again) who cripples a kid for life in a wreck or the 18 year old who had sex w/a 15-year old? In the US the 18 year old will do a lot of time (mandatory) and be forever labeled publicly as a sex-offender and forever have to check-in with police and not be able to live or work anywhere that children may be present. The Drunk Driver for his first offence will likely walk with no jail time and be off any kind of probation in a few years. This is what irrational and emotional responses to emotional issues get you.

Lets not also forget that the odds are the same of a person's actual innocent before (and after) being proven guilty regardless of the crime. But when it involves child-molesting, these folks want to hang the person before they have had a right to defend themselves.

[johndpoole]

^thanks John, I would probably be horrified by the real figures, if they were actually known, these are sad issues. I guess, the figures are never going to be fully correct because they rely on cases being officially reported and based on some of the points you've raised and other issues, it highly unlikely that this will occurr.

Sickening stuff.

Interesting is that what I have read is that Thailand is no longer the destination to go for those seeking sex with children. Cambodia is supposedly a place that it is much easier and less risky as well as many other places now. I would assume this is because of Thailand being tougher on it as well as its economic and social growth. I don't go to Pattya too often but would assume one would have to go to the very rural and poor parts of Thailand to find parents willing to sell their kids out as once was much more common here.

[pedro01]

How about making child porn illegal here ? It is.

How about stopping the people selling child porn openly on Beach Rd in Pattaya and Pantip Plaza in Bangkok ? A very good question, I suspect we are back to the money talks bit.

My understanding is that the posession of child pornography for personal use is not illegal here.

Distribution, production & posession with intent to sell is illegal.

[johndpoole]

How about making child porn illegal here ? It is.

How about stopping the people selling child porn openly on Beach Rd in Pattaya and Pantip Plaza in Bangkok ? A very good question, I suspect we are back to the money talks bit.

My understanding is that the posession of child pornography for personal use is not illegal here.

Distribution, production & posession with intent to sell is illegal.

I'd be interested to know if this is true. I find it hard to believe (except that this is Thailand) that I believe sex toys are illegal here but not child porn. Then again, in addition to not seeing sex toy type stores, I've never seen x-rated videos being sold openly at a legit store either.

Not in relation to sex but I was talking to a friend the other day and there really is some clear differences in how Thai's view children compared to many western societies. They seem to have to fend for themselves here more with many things and there really is no age where they are truly an adult in their parents eyes such as 18 or 21. Many if choose to drop out of school and work even at young ages are then seen as an adult and expected to help the parents. In Western society it seems the parents are always indebted to help and care for their kids regardless of their age. Helping out your parents means you are a good son/daughter as opposed to some obligation.

[connel707]

Great. A very S T R O N G message needs to be sent out about any crimes of violence against women and children. Simple.

The biggest child abusers are still locals, more then 99% !

Most underage girls who go work in the bar have been deflowered already by elder brother or dad, thats 'very normal' here.

Who is teaching about good morals to who again ?

New guidelines to punish foreign paedophilia suspects

Aha.... Double standards !

Why ? Locals will not receive the same punishment because... ????????

Maybe in Manila, but this is Thailand ...not Phillipines....quite different here...

[johndpoole]

^thanks John, I would probably be horrified by the real figures, if they were actually known, these are sad issues. I guess, the figures are never going to be fully correct because they rely on cases being officially reported and based on some of the points you've raised and other issues, it highly unlikely that this will occurr.

Sickening stuff.

But you know, I could be wrong ... I was basing this 90% thing on things I have read about local issues on this subject but also basing it on some facts I read about the sex trade (prostitution in general) and how non-thais only make up a fairly small number of clients. I don't remember the number but it shocked me since we typically only see us Farangs in the Soi-Cowboy type places but I do believe we only made up like less than 10%.

Anyway, I kind of translated that into sex with children here and the number of tourists compared to Thais in Thailand. Then I thought about it and with many people coming here (i'll assume) with the intent or belief they can get away with molesting children then this kind of skews everything.

So, as you mentioned there really is know way to tell but will say that it is my understanding that there is network of child sex rings operating within Thailand that only cater to Thai men.

[humfurry]

Nice titling PUNISH THE SUSPECTS

Good spot!

[TAWP]

How about making child porn illegal here ? It is.

How about stopping the people selling child porn openly on Beach Rd in Pattaya and Pantip Plaza in Bangkok ? A very good question, I suspect we are back to the money talks bit.

My understanding is that the posession of child pornography for personal use is not illegal here.

Distribution, production & posession with intent to sell is illegal.

Would be incorrect, as ANY pornography is illegal here, as deemed obscene material against public moral. (Yes, I know...public moral, here...)

Edited April 1, 2010 by TAWP

[theoldgit]

My understanding is that the posession of child pornography for personal use is not illegal here.

My understanding is that it is illegal, but I wouldn't stake my pension on it.

[pedro01]

How about making child porn illegal here ? It is.

How about stopping the people selling child porn openly on Beach Rd in Pattaya and Pantip Plaza in Bangkok ? A very good question, I suspect we are back to the money talks bit.

My understanding is that the posession of child pornography for personal use is not illegal here.

Distribution, production & posession with intent to sell is illegal.

I'd be interested to know if this is true. I find it hard to believe (except that this is Thailand) that I believe sex toys are illegal here but not child porn. Then again, in addition to not seeing sex toy type stores, I've never seen x-rated videos being sold openly at a legit store either.

Not in relation to sex but I was talking to a friend the other day and there really is some clear differences in how Thai's view children compared to many western societies. They seem to have to fend for themselves here more with many things and there really is no age where they are truly an adult in their parents eyes such as 18 or 21. Many if choose to drop out of school and work even at young ages are then seen as an adult and expected to help the parents. In Western society it seems the parents are always indebted to help and care for their kids regardless of their age. Helping out your parents means you are a good son/daughter as opposed to some obligation.

It is the same in many countries - child porn posession not being illegal. Japan is the same.

[pedro01]

How about making child porn illegal here ? It is.

How about stopping the people selling child porn openly on Beach Rd in Pattaya and Pantip Plaza in Bangkok ? A very good question, I suspect we are back to the money talks bit.

My understanding is that the posession of child pornography for personal use is not illegal here.

Distribution, production & posession with intent to sell is illegal.

Would be incorrect, as ANY pornography is illegal here, as deemed obscene material against public moral. (Yes, I know...public moral, here...)

Nope - the posession of pornography for personal use is NOT a criminal offense. Only production, distribution and posession with intent to distribute is illegal.

[sarahsbloke]

School leaving age in Thailand appears to be 12.

(My wife left school at age 12, I just asked a few of the neighbours wife/gf and they also left school age 12.

Edited April 1, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[tominbkk]

I went to a birthday party for the head of the civil service in Thailand. A relaxed affair, not too posh, but definitely many influential people there (this was about 15 years ago). At that time he was in his mid sixties I would assume by his looks. A young girl, about 14 or 15 presented his cake to him on stage at one point. I asked my friend if that was his daughter, or grand-daughter. No, I was told, that is his latest wife! I was told he gets a new wife every 8-10 years, this was his fourth one, and they all lived together in a compound. Anyway, I doubt he still has that position, don't even know if he is alive still.

I've heard of many secret clubs, Thai only (usually Thai-Chinese for some reason) where there are houses filled with boys and/or girls for the choosing. There was a huge bust several years ago in a big place in Nonthaburi, about 20 boys were kept in this place, from age 8-16 or so. The mamasan had kept a log too of people frequenting the place, but there were far too many influential names in it for it ever to become public.

What about the police at Lumpini park, who were serially dragging young girls back to the station and raping them? Or the waterfront police station in Pattaya, where for many years a house of prostitution right next door (boys and girls and young as six, kept in their underwear for the customer to openly fondle). Years and years that place was open and the police did absolutely nothing.

I guess I'm just trying to say that, though it is a good thing they are making an example of foreigners and punishing them to hopefully keep away others from outside coming in to abuse children, that they aren't actually doing anything to put a real dent in the problem, and if you have money and/or influence and are Thai, or wear a police uniform, then you can pretty well do whatever you please without fear of punishment.

[johndpoole]

.....

I guess I'm just trying to say that, though it is a good thing they are making an example of foreigners and punishing them to hopefully keep away others from outside coming in to abuse children, that they aren't actually doing anything to put a real dent in the problem, and if you have money and/or influence and are Thai, or wear a police uniform, then you can pretty well do whatever you please without fear of punishment.

Well said.

[jts-khorat]

The guidelines include a larger sum for bail as well as passport seizure to prevent the suspects from fleeing.

This article makes it out to be as if it is a new procedure to seize passports. At least here on Phuket your passport will be seized by immigration for mouthing off to an official or stealing a beer mat from a bar. You will not be able to go home until your court hearing has happened.

This is just a politician looking busy, nothing actually happened that is new.

In this country it is much too much about face, much too little about substance.

[astral]

This has to be The Nations 1st of April post...

An adviser to the Swedish King would never interfere in anything political, it is very much a no-no for the crown.

Nor do you punish suspects............................

Whatever next??

[Sabre]

....

Seizing a passport won't help much: just go to A police station and report your passport missing. They will make a report for you, and off you go to your Embassy for a new passport, unless of course you are a wanted person in your home country. Too bad!! Bye!!

....

Not true. Most countries make it a crime to lie about your passport being stolen. Most embassies require a report from the police. Often the police will check if the passport has been retained (not always, and can possibly be bribed to ignore it anyway).

It's not impossible, depending upon nationality, but very difficult for some ...

[Comehome]

The Swedish Queen Silvia is very active in the international organization Ecpat and they are active in Thailand to prevent any abuse and trafficing of children.

http://www.ecpat.net/EI/index.asp

I think it is good that Thailand do something to stop the child molestors.

Someone wrote before that taking their passports will not help. The ones who take their passport will of course notify the embassy that this person is under investigation for Child molesting.

I am not so sure that the embassy will give them a new passport then.

I undrstand that it must be difficult to stop the domestic child abuse but at least this is a start.

A friend told me today that incest is also very common in Thailand. So sad!

Another question: Is it allowed to "fabricate a crime" in Thailand?

Please, excuse my bad english. I dont know the proper word but what i mean is to make someone almost comitting a crime, catch them almost doing it and have the right to accuse them?

Do you understand how i mean?

If so, then the Thai goverment could give money to the children who will help them to catch the child molesters, that might

be something actually worth putting money on. It would be a win-win for everyone.

The important thing is to find a way to protect the children and to teach them that molesting a child is wrong and therefore it should be punished.

The children who have been molested often comit the same crime as grownups for some reason. Then it must start with teaching the children how wrong this is and that they should not under any circumstances accept to be used.

It is easy to say and there is the moneything in it as well, but perhaps someone who know the thai society better than me could make an actual proposition on how to deal with this.

I think personally that any child molestor should be tatooed with some special ink, in the forehead with "I am a pedophile". The punishment from society after being in jail will not make it easy for them. They will not be welcome anywhere.

But that is just my oppinion.

/comehome

[lioness]

???? where do you get this stat that many are caught in the act???? Do the police spy on the room until they see actual penetration ?

Trply

Sexual abuse comes in many forms, not just penetration as you call it.

[jackr]

The thread is about foreigners commiting child sex...sure some locals are guilty of it too but who cares in what ratio to foreigners. There is no need for foreigners to add to an existing problem here...be it bad driving, drunkeness, littering and other bad behaviour.

So what if there are double standards against foreigners in this matter? The problem should not be ignored and targetting foreigners first is at least one step in the right direction.

Yes, but this minister should at least be concerned that the problem is ubiquitous and not conveniently apportioning the matter on the foreigner. I agree, these filthy bastards coming over here should be hung, drawn and quartered, but clean up your own backyard at the same time.

[sarahsbloke]

I wonder why they are all grouped by the 'hang em high' brigade

Everyone agrees people who molest children are evil and should be punished.

But what about people who just look at photos? (and if this stops them going out and doing it themselves)

What about people who only look at photos of 15 year olds? (as bad as a person who looks at photos of 4 year olds)

What about people who look at cartoons of that sort? (popular in Japan, openly sold in shops everywhere)

Are these people all the same and requiring the same punishment.

(In the UK they are all considered the same and by strict definition of UK law anyone owning a copy the the hollywood movies 'The Hole' or 'American Beauty' is also a criminal just as guilty as someone who actually molests children)

Edited April 2, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Thai at Heart]

Whilst I wholly support things like making bail harder to obtain for flight risks, I would also suggest that whilst they want to get on their high horses for punishing foreigners, how about making it harder for accused murderers to get out on bail.

Vis a vis the policeman from Pai. Of course during his time out on bail I am sure he never approached any potential witnesses and had a quiet word in their ear. Or the bloke who ran down the people in his Mercedes because he get cut up by a bus and the proceeded to claim diminished capacity but presumably was behind the wheel of his car the day he got out of custody.

[Ijustwannateach]

The most frightening part of this news story to me is the following:

However, he said, Thai people and agencies believe that the crime is not that serious partially because the children gave consented.

Which is more or less an admission that Thais don't see the big deal (... which means that the incredibly huge problem of THAI child abuse will continue unabated?!?) and this is a way of looking like they are 'doing something' to the outside world?