Older Men And Money

[Oneman]

.

A rising tide lifts all ships.

What happens when the tide starts falling?

Older men with money get a warm welcome here.

In Thailand, to have "fortune," automatically gives "big face".

But everywhere in our "home" countries, fortunes are falling.

Investments, pensions, home values, and currency exchange rates, all are in decline.

So, what of our future here when expats in aggregate have a lot less money than before?

What sort of "face" will we have?

What sort of welcome we get in Thailand?

Here's a sobering quote from a newsletter I receive.

(Since it is paid subscription, I won't give the source here, but will provide it on private request.)

In Australia, median retirement savings of men 60-64 is $33,000. ... This is after a lifetime in the workforce. ... The roughly equivalent figure for men aged 55 in the US was a median of $25,000 in 2006. It is undoubtedly lower now. ... As for money in liquid assets and/or cash, most Aussies and Americans don’t have enough to see out a month of “normal” expenditures should their salaries and/or their government cheques be cut off. Most of the other “wealthy” nations would show similar numbers.

Men "back home" who are approaching retirement now and want to live in Thailand, have much less money to bring over here than we did in the recent past.

Those who are already expats here now, will have less, too.

The tide is ebbing.

I predict that the falling tide of expat fortunes will negatively reflect on all expats here.

Seriously affect.

As fortunes decline, even those who are still afloat will suffer from the falling "face" of our fellows.

I welcome discussion -- especially contrary conclusions --either on the open forum or in private email.

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Oneman

[Boater]

interesting post....

[Loz]

doom and gloom on Easter Sunday? Not a chance!

I believe in the "Resurection" of Expat Fortunes. They will rise again and the boat will stay afloat. If you are at all interesting in the view of accredited economists, My I suggest you read some Paul Zane Pilzner. He helps explain a theory of economics that is really quite interesting. The facts he quotes from history create an interesting pattern which when extrapolated to forcast future economic growth (or otherwise) seems more positive than the OP's source.

check out his writings.. "Unlimited Weath" is most engaging regardless of your beleifs!

[bonobo]

Most retired American men I know make fare more than that.  Some of my military chums, for example, are now retired and are making anywhere from $5,000 - $7,500 per month at age 51, and that is without private investments and social security.  And I know firefighters, policemen, factory workers who are working for solvent companies, pilots, etc, who make similar if not more.

On the other side, there are men who have nothing other than social security.  Depending on their work history, they might make $1,500-2,500 per month. And then there are the truly destitute who never even collect their social security for any number of reasons. 

So, how does that effect the expat population?  Well, the truly destitute aren't going to come here.  THey can't get here, for one.  THe men on the lower end of the pay scale might come, as they go to the Philippines, Mexico, Columbia, or any number of places where they can stretch out their dollars.  But I would imagine that if for no other reason than air fares, most of the men who come here are a little on the higher end of the retirement pay scale.

Even if the dollar/pound/euro/aussie dollar/canadian dollar/you-fill-in-the-blanks-dollar plummets, let's say in half, that means even the person on the low end of the scale would be making the equivalent of 24,000 baht in today's terms, and while not a lot, that is more than the majority of Thai workers.

And for the wealthier, Thais have no problems know ing which Thais have money, and they seem to defer to them, so I doubt they would have a problem understanding that the pensioner living in Roi-et may not be in the same economic class as the guy living in a three-bedroom condo in Silom.

(I am not inferring myself that one or the other is "better," by any means, just keeping this in perspective to the OP's question.)

[Garry9999]

Prediction.

1. The cost of living between Thailand and the West starts to narrow and becomes less attractive to European Expats, but more attractive to wealthy Asians.

2.Cambodia continues to develop and becomes the new Thailand.

3.The generals start to loose their grip on Myanmar and Myanmar becomes the new Cambodia.

4.Laos becomes an industrial zone of China and/or Vietnam.

[TheItaliann]

anyone who has a percentage of their money coming from a government pension shouldn't expect it in the future. the US gov is going bankrupt. all benefits will be scaled back, if received at all. also, look for many companies to go bankrupt and avoid paying out their promised pensions. all this dead weight will have to be lifted somehow. the balance sheet can't be pushed back forever.

based on the CBO, best case scenario is that in ten years the usa is paying 50% of its tax revenue to interest on its debt.

we are in the end game as i write this.

Edited April 4, 2010 by TheItaliann

[Oneman]

cost of living between Thailand and the West starts to narrow and becomes less attractive to European Expats ... Cambodia becomes the new Thailand ... Myanmar becomes the new Cambodia

Excellent food for thought.

Thank you for posting.

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

.

[473geo]

Not all doom and gloom....there is a new breed coming through that were encouraged when young to invest in personal pension plans........the main worry I would say, is as always, governments moving the goal posts to the detriment of people who have limited options now they have set their stall out for their retirement. Overseas voters are rarely considered in policy decisions!!!

Just look at the headline news about reviewing the Australians on invalid payments abroad, goes down well with the public and media.

Do you realistically think the amounts involved would make a relevant dent in the the amounts governments piss down the drain on our behalf!!!

edit: spelling

Edited April 4, 2010 by 473geo

[samasama]

Prediction.

1. The cost of living between Thailand and the West starts to narrow and becomes less attractive to European Expats, but more attractive to wealthy Asians.

2.Cambodia continues to develop and becomes the new Thailand.

3.The generals start to loose their grip on Myanmar and Myanmar becomes the new Cambodia.

4.Laos becomes an industrial zone of China and/or Vietnam.

Would be interesting and not too far-fetched if it happened that way.

#4 is a likely event, but would be altogether sad if it happened.

[TheItaliann]

generals are not likely to lose their power in Myanmar. the reason being that they have the support of the Chinese who are happy to do business there. the rest of the world is in no position to interject. its similar to the relationship that us has/used to have with several African and Middle Eastern dictatorships/quasi-republics

[Jingthing]

On the other side, there are men who have nothing other than social security.  Depending on their work history, they might make $1,500-2,500 per month. And then there are the truly destitute who never even collect their social security for any number of reasons. 

You are WAY OFF for the typical US social security benefit! Yes it is based on work history but there is also a maximum payout. I think 2500 per month is over the maximum or at least close and would require a worker making high income for most of their adult life and also waiting until the older age to take the benefit, in other words, VERY RARE. Yes many people get 1500. The AVERAGE today is 1164 per month.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cf....php?p_faqid=13.

BTW, unless you are disabled, the earliest social security old age benefit is at age 62, and if you take it that early, it will be a reduced benefit. Your post implies you know people getting SS at age 51; that is BS unless they are disabled and being a disabled expat on SS is quite rare (difficult to maintain eligibility).

http://www.ssa.gov/retire2/agereduction.htm

BTW, I also think the cost of airfare is really trivial for most expats (and if it is, that is a big red flag). I am definitely one of the lower wealth expats financially, but the cost of airfare made almost no difference in my decision to move to Thailand. The factors that do matter -- you like the country, you can qualify for a long term VISA to the country, you feel you can afford to live in the country. Sure I could take a cheap bus to Mexico, but the difference between the extra cost of an air ticket to Thailand and the real motivators to move are almost meaningless. If they are meaningful, you REALLY can't afford to retire ANYWHERE.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Jingthing

[bonobo]

Most retired American men I know make fare more than that. Some of my military chums, for example, are now retired and are making anywhere from $5,000 - $7,500 per month at age 51, and that is without private investments and social security. And I know firefighters, policemen, factory workers who are working for solvent companies, pilots, etc, who make similar if not more.

On the other side, there are men who have nothing other than social security. Depending on their work history, they might make $1,500-2,500 per month. And then there are the truly destitute who never even collect their social security for any number of reason

 

You are WAY OFF for the typical US social security benefit! Yes it is based on work history but there is also a maximum payout. I think 2500 per month is over the maximum or at least close and would require a worker making high income for most of their adult life and also waiting until the older age to take the benefit, in other words, VERY RARE. Yes many people get 1500. The AVERAGE today is 1164 per month.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cf....php?p_faqid=13.

OK, if that is the average, that is the average.  I just don't personally know of anyone who worked a full life who is getting less than $1500. So me writing that they "might make" that is still accurate, I think.  

BTW, unless you are disabled, the earliest social security old age benefit is at age 62, and if you take it that early, it will be a reduced benefit. Your post implies you know people getting SS at age 51; that is BS unless they are disabled and being a disabled expat on SS is quite rare (difficult to maintain eligibility).

http://www.ssa.gov/retire2/agereduction.htm

If you are going to accuse me of lying ("BS," as you put it), then please read my post before going into attack mode.  I wrote that my military peers make that at 51, and that this is without private investments and social security. 

BTW, I also think the cost of airfare is really trivial for most expats (and if it is, that is a big red flag). I am definitely one of the lower wealth expats financially, but the cost of airfare made almost no difference in my decision to move to Thailand. The factors that do matter -- you like the country, you can qualify for a long term VISA to the country, you feel you can afford to live in the country. Sure I could take a cheap bus to Mexico, but the difference between the extra cost of an air ticket to Thailand and the real motivators to move are almost meaningless. If they are meaningful, you REALLY can't afford to retire ANYWHERE.

OK, your opinion.

[GuestHouse]

Stop worrying so much, as your money decreases you can always move further down the social scale here in your search for people who will look up to you.

[473geo]

Or take a job as a window cleaner.....

[Rinrada]

or drink one less beer a day..............................Noooooo

must be another way....

[BigWheelMan]

Great topic.

The way I see things, for us over 50s ex-pats on home country pensions, that the days of Thailand being the new grazing fields for middle aged and old folk is over.

The main theme for me which influenced my decision to move to Thailand was that the wine, women and song was affordable and it was going to be a new lease of life, rather than becoming an old spaz back home, growing vegetables on the allotment and visiting the park, feeding the ducks every day.

Now this has all changed. Farang venue costs have been hyped up, the powers that be have complete control of our incomes via interest rates and the exchange rates etc, etc, etc.

So many of us are finding ourselves having to live on a budget such as staying at home more sitting in front of a computer or TV and counting the old shekels. Eventually living similar lifestyles to how we were in our home countries.

Personally, I don’t see the situation improving.

Edited April 4, 2010 by BigWheelMan

[IanForbes]

We all make choices in life. If you CHOOSE not to work hard and save a portion of your wages each month then don't be surprised at not having enough come retirement age. A lot comes from poor parenting and not teaching their children about good money management. The sooner you start saving and investing the better. Unfortunately, young people in their twenties don't WANT to save. At some point a person has to learn good money management or they'll suffer later.

Of course, there will always be bad luck that happens to all of us: bad health, bad choice in a life partner, the company you work for goes out of business, global economy going in the tank, etc, etc. But, at some point in the game a person should learn NOT to make bad choices.

I married a spend thrift who had champagne tastes, but she chose not to work to support her spending habits, and chose to only live off what I could earn in my low paying government job. It was eventually the demise of our marriage after 20 years. But, I DID CHOOSE TO MARRY HER! The same was true with my second wife, but for slightly different reasons. But, again, I DID choose to marry her. I finally wised up and CHOSE to stay single. Now life is great and I can live on my small pension. BUT, that is only because I used my money wisely after splitting from the marriage scene.

[dave2]

guest house .

re ... you can always move further down the social scale here in your search for people who will look up to you.

you mean the friendly girls on beach road pattaya .... yes ?

dave2 ... : )

[sokal]

Thai people have been over estimating the wealth of farangs in general for a long time already. I think it is part of the reason why allot of Thai farang marriages end badly. The girl goes to farang land expecting to see loose cash floating around when there really is none. Its all really just debt, as far as the eye can see.

Standards of living change with exchange rates. The higher value your currency is, the higher standard of living you have. The trend for the SE Asian currencies is up.

[IanForbes]

Thai people have been over estimating the wealth of farangs in general for a long time already. I think it is part of the reason why allot of Thai farang marriages end badly. The girl goes to farang land expecting to see loose cash floating around when there really is none. Its all really just debt, as far as the eye can see.

Standards of living change with exchange rates. The higher value your currency is, the higher standard of living you have. The trend for the SE Asian currencies is up.

Very true, but most people live right up to the limit of their income. Only a few are willing to deprive themselves of a high life style while they take the time to set themselves up financially. My first wife was a terrible spend thrift. But, one year when we had no money in the bank, we decided to take a trip to Australia. We went on a tight budget for a year and didn't spend ANYTHING that wasn't absolutely necessary. The following December we had saved enough to take a 10 week holiday to see her parents in Australia. That gave me an understanding on how much we were wasting the previous years.

I've often said that if all the rich people in the world gave ALL their money and everything they owned away to the poor people then it wouldn't change a thing. Within a few short years, 99% of the money would be back in the same hands. But, a FEW poor people WOULD have taken advantage of the charity and improved their lives... other than momentarily.

I've known a few wealthy men who have lost a fortune and a few years later gained it all back. They just know HOW to make money, and were willing to take the risks to do so.

[sokal]

Thai people have been over estimating the wealth of farangs in general for a long time already. I think it is part of the reason why allot of Thai farang marriages end badly. The girl goes to farang land expecting to see loose cash floating around when there really is none. Its all really just debt, as far as the eye can see.

Standards of living change with exchange rates. The higher value your currency is, the higher standard of living you have. The trend for the SE Asian currencies is up.

Very true, but most people live right up to the limit of their income. Only a few are willing to deprive themselves of a high life style while they take the time to set themselves up financially. My first wife was a terrible spend thrift. But, one year when we had no money in the bank, we decided to take a trip to Australia. We went on a tight budget for a year and didn't spend ANYTHING that wasn't absolutely necessary. The following December we had saved enough to take a 10 week holiday to see her parents in Australia. That gave me an understanding on how much we were wasting the previous years.

I've often said that if all the rich people in the world gave ALL their money and everything they owned away to the poor people then it wouldn't change a thing. Within a few short years, 99% of the money would be back in the same hands. But, a FEW poor people WOULD have taken advantage of the charity and improved their lives... other than momentarily.

I've known a few wealthy men who have lost a fortune and a few years later gained it all back. They just know HOW to make money, and were willing to take the risks to do so.

I tried to start a thread about this a while ago but it got closed. It was about the difference between true wealthy farangs and the poor farangs with illusionary wealth and if Thai people really knew the difference. I don't think they do.

[ESB7]

Also begs the question 'when does the money stop'....for the family. How can anyone justify the monthly payments of 10k or 20k to their partners/family. A guy I know is a diver in Phuket and has been there for almost 6 years working. 2 years ago gets married to a Coyote dancer halfe his age and then has a baby. His partner works in the dive shop but he has returned to the UK last month as didnt have enough money.....the reason being he still has to pay his wife eery month although she is working.....how many other relationships have broken down this way.

[hhgz]

An interesting post. This is the first time that I've read a farang man worrying about him losing face. Usually, the guy is worried about his wife, his GF, his in-laws...but this time, it's about him. I wonder if the OP believes that he's losing face because of his dwindling fortunes. Interestingly, she wouldn't know what your savings are, unless you tell her. Too, the OP should not the difference between "savings" and "net worth".

[dmax]

look at spain ! the uk government are cutting off all government pension payments to expats living oversea,s , many old guys are living in los on their government pensions barely scapping by but staying only because the climate is better, this will definately be changing in the future when the gov keep tightening the screws.

[Jingthing]

I doubt the US will cut off social security to expats as they save big money on expats because we can't access Medicare (the US nationalized health for the over 65 set). If they forced old expats home, it would cost them much more.

[dmax]

Also begs the question 'when does the money stop'....for the family. How can anyone justify the monthly payments of 10k or 20k to their partners/family. A guy I know is a diver in Phuket and has been there for almost 6 years working. 2 years ago gets married to a Coyote dancer halfe his age and then has a baby. His partner works in the dive shop but he has returned to the UK last month as didnt have enough money.....the reason being he still has to pay his wife eery month although she is working.....how many other relationships have broken down this way.

poor guy , i would rather be on my own than send some money grabbing tart my hard earned cash especially if she has enough allready, it sucks

[rgs2001uk]

Also begs the question 'when does the money stop'....for the family. How can anyone justify the monthly payments of 10k or 20k to their partners/family. A guy I know is a diver in Phuket and has been there for almost 6 years working. 2 years ago gets married to a Coyote dancer halfe his age and then has a baby. His partner works in the dive shop but he has returned to the UK last month as didnt have enough money.....the reason being he still has to pay his wife eery month although she is working.....how many other relationships have broken down this way.

poor guy , i would rather be on my own than send some money grabbing tart my hard earned cash especially if she has enough allready, it sucks

Poor guy, well he probably is now in the financial sense.

As for his choice of partner, hel_l mend him.

Been in Phuket for 4 years then "gets married to a Coyote dancer halfe his age".

What a moron should have known better, not as if he was the normal 2 week millionaire.

How many guys do you know anywhere in the world who marry coyote dancers half their age?

This idiot had a steak appetite and a hamburger budget.

[Naam]

The factors that do matter -- you like the country, you can qualify for a long term VISA to the country, you feel you can afford to live in the country. Sure I could take a cheap bus to Mexico, but the difference between the extra cost of an air ticket to Thailand and the real motivators to move are almost meaningless. If they are meaningful, you REALLY can't afford to retire ANYWHERE.

BINGO!

[witold]

"Here's a sobering quote from a newsletter I receive.

(Since it is paid subscription, I won't give the source here, but will provide it on private request.)"

Your newsletter is not primary source for the 'sobering' stats you quoted.  Cite where the numbers are actually coming from so we can look into it.  

Regardless, that stat clearly doesn't include all assets like the $600,000 McMansion someone may have paid off.  

[a2396]

Most retired American men I know make fare more than that.  Some of my military chums, for example, are now retired and are making anywhere from $5,000 - $7,500 per month at age 51, and that is without private investments and social security.  And I know firefighters, policemen, factory workers who are working for solvent companies, pilots, etc, who make similar if not more.

On the other side, there are men who have nothing other than social security.  Depending on their work history, they might make $1,500-2,500 per month. And then there are the truly destitute who never even collect their social security for any number of reasons. 

So, how does that effect the expat population?  Well, the truly destitute aren't going to come here.  THey can't get here, for one.  THe men on the lower end of the pay scale might come, as they go to the Philippines, Mexico, Columbia, or any number of places where they can stretch out their dollars.  But I would imagine that if for no other reason than air fares, most of the men who come here are a little on the higher end of the retirement pay scale.

Even if the dollar/pound/euro/aussie dollar/canadian dollar/you-fill-in-the-blanks-dollar plummets, let's say in half, that means even the person on the low end of the scale would be making the equivalent of 24,000 baht in today's terms, and while not a lot, that is more than the majority of Thai workers.

And for the wealthier, Thais have no problems know ing which Thais have money, and they seem to defer to them, so I doubt they would have a problem understanding that the pensioner living in Roi-et may not be in the same economic class as the guy living in a three-bedroom condo in Silom.

(I am not inferring myself that one or the other is "better," by any means, just keeping this in perspective to the OP's question.)

Good post. There seems to be no shortage of "high-roller" guys coming here to run up and keep up the expectations of the local darlings. They have not stopped asking for 1 million + sin sod or the usual houses, cars, gold, 20K +++ monthly salary. Someone's keeping the game going. However, in the future, I don't see things are going to be quite so in the pink for the next generation of retirees. In USA the chopping has already started on pensions and other benefits.