Reforms, Cabinet For Poor Thais Needed : Thaworn

[rainman]

It worked! Thanks to Thaksin's brother-in-law, Somchai and his incompetent gang, who were the ones, doing nothing at the airport.

Let's go back a little in time, shall we? You're the farang that was wearing the PAD shirt and yellow headband, posting pictures on the internet, no? I'll see if I can find then again. If your PAD didn't take over the airport, there would be a lot less problems in Thailand now.

Please we try to cool down and to stop whining: both sides have responsabilities, on this thread we try to be POSITIVE.

Accusing each other to be a supporter of the Yellow or of the Reds is bringing us back and NOWHERE.

You're right, but you've got to admit that kurtgruen's post was like accusing someone of being wet after dropping a bucket of water on them yourself. Anyways, the problem isn't going to be solved by dispersing the protesters or breaking them up. We had that last year. They'll just come back and as we've seen, simply stronger and more united. The government needs to start addressing the problem, not trying to get rid of the consequences. Elections would help a lot. If they're convinced that they have the support of the majority of Thais, there should be no concern. The problem is that the government knows that if they hold elections, they will most likely lose. And they don't want to give up power, simple as that.

[Jerrytheyoung]

It worked! Thanks to Thaksin's brother-in-law, Somchai and his incompetent gang, who were the ones, doing nothing at the airport.

Let's go back a little in time, shall we? You're the farang that was wearing the PAD shirt and yellow headband, posting pictures on the internet, no? I'll see if I can find then again. If your PAD didn't take over the airport, there would be a lot less problems in Thailand now.

Please we try to cool down and to stop whining: both sides have responsabilities, on this thread we try to be POSITIVE.

Accusing each other to be a supporter of the Yellow or of the Reds is bringing us back and NOWHERE.

You're right, but you've got to admit that kurtgruen's post was like accusing someone of being wet after dropping a bucket of water on them yourself. Anyways, the problem isn't going to be solved by dispersing the protesters or breaking them up. We had that last year. They'll just come back and as we've seen, simply stronger and more united. The government needs to start addressing the problem, not trying to get rid of the consequences. Elections would help a lot. If they're convinced that they have the support of the majority of Thais, there should be no concern. The problem is that the government knows that if they hold elections, they will most likely lose. And they don't want to give up power, simple as that.

Thank you. We try to build something. And to anwer directly to your last statement, I will say everything will depends on the way the discussions are undertaken: Abhisit has a fair chance to win the following election if he leads correctly the discussions, but he fails to bring a clear answer to the Northern population, yes he will loose the Elections (This is my Humble Opinion).

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

[junkofdavid2]

The only problem with your reasoning is that the " other group" didn't close the airport - that was solely a function of the airport authority who decided to "close" the airport.

And I suppose, your logic also says that the Nazis in WW2 didn't wage war against France, etc.... it was solely a function of France, etc. to "fight back" when they were occupied, wasn't it?

[rainman]

Thank you. We try to build something. And to anwer directly to your last statement, I will say everything will depends on the way the discussions are undertaken: Abhisit has a fair chance to win the following election if he leads correctly the discussions, but he fails to bring a clear answer to the Northern population, yes he will loose the Elections (This is my Humble Opinion).

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

Abhisit will win Bangkok probably 95% to 5%. But Thailand is more than Bangkok. And that's where the root of the problem is. The whole country is basically being left in the last century, while Bangkok is moving towards the next century. There's no real opportunity to make money outside of Bangkok, unless you already have money and can open a resort or another business in Pattaya or Phuket. There is no stable IT infrastructure basically outside Bangkok and the major tourist spots.

If you look at the UK, for example ...or countries like Germany, Canada, etc. There are nearly equal job opportunities whether you live in small city or in London, Toronto or Berlin. IT companies, which are vital today to a country's progress, can be located anywhere and provide job opportunities.

In Thailand, everything is in Bangkok. And that, in my opinion, is the root of the problem. There's no equal opportunities for you if you're born in the North or North East.

[Jerrytheyoung]

The only problem with your reasoning is that the " other group" didn't close the airport - that was solely a function of the airport authority who decided to "close" the airport.

And I suppose, your logic also says that the Nazis in WW2 didn't wage war against France, etc.... it was solely a function of France, etc. to "fight back" when they were occupied, wasn't it?

I was answering to Rainman at the same time you were posting.

So, here, we try to be POSITIVE at the difference of all other threads where you can release your tension in.

Everybody must cool down to bring back the discussion to a common ground.

Thank you

[TheOldWolf]

Maybe back to topic. What do you think about the plan the goverment is presenting. Good or not. Election now or in 9 month, 18 month and whatever has been disscused at least 10 other threads.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Thank you. We try to build something. And to anwer directly to your last statement, I will say everything will depends on the way the discussions are undertaken: Abhisit has a fair chance to win the following election if he leads correctly the discussions, but he fails to bring a clear answer to the Northern population, yes he will loose the Elections (This is my Humble Opinion).

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

Abhisit will win Bangkok probably 95% to 5%. But Thailand is more than Bangkok. And that's where the root of the problem is. The whole country is basically being left in the last century, while Bangkok is moving towards the next century. There's no real opportunity to make money outside of Bangkok, unless you already have money and can open a resort or another business in Pattaya or Phuket. There is no stable IT infrastructure basically outside Bangkok and the major tourist spots.

If you look at the UK, for example ...or countries like Germany, Canada, etc. There are nearly equal job opportunities whether you live in small city or in London, Toronto or Berlin. IT companies, which are vital today to a country's progress, can be located anywhere and provide job opportunities.

In Thailand, everything is in Bangkok. And that, in my opinion, is the root of the problem. There's no equal opportunities for you if you're born in the North or North East.

You are true and several people have underlined the requirement of Decentralisation of Decisions/ investments. In France, Napoleon has centralised the feudal system but today since De Gaulle we are decentralising partly and each Regional Parliament takes often better decisions than the parisian buraucracy. However the problem is also complex because some industries need an access to the sea. Railways infrastructure is very poor in Thailand this is also an obstacle that some people have mentioned.

In fact the problem needs to be assessed in specialised Commissions/ Committees for preparing the decisions. It is also obvious that the Bangkokian Megapole gigantism is wearing potential social issues which may become out of control in the next generation. We can give opinions but this has to be studied, assessed scientifically and objectively and should be done by Committees where all concerned parties are represented.

Education is also at the core of the issue.

Thais have to organise the "democratic structures" to discuss all those issues.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[lannarebirth]

Maybe back to topic. What do you think about the plan the goverment is presenting. Good or not. Election now or in 9 month, 18 month and whatever has been disscused at least 10 other threads.

I personally do not believe in this "cabinet for the poor". It institutionalizes poverty. Instead I'd rather see agencies and plicies aimed at uplifting all Thais, which of course the poor would be given greater consideration as their need is more urgent.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Maybe back to topic. What do you think about the plan the goverment is presenting. Good or not. Election now or in 9 month, 18 month and whatever has been disscused at least 10 other threads.

In our suggestion, the Goverment has to give an immediate answer to the social issues (Rice price...., he has also to engage discussions on decentralisation which certainly has some consequences on the Constitution: this should be done through Committees involving all parties. The results of discussions have to be presented to Thais and through a referendum in order to rebuild the peace between Thais. In my humble opinion, the Elections must follow immediately the referendum in order to promote a new generation of Politicians for implementing the results of the referendum. All this take time, but I think it can be done in four or five months (From memory of May 68 situation).

In any case, general Elections must follow immediately the referendum (15 days to one month maximum).

This is an opinion opened to discussion....

Edited April 5, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[kurtgruen]

It worked! Thanks to Thaksin's brother-in-law, Somchai and his incompetent gang, who were the ones, doing nothing at the airport.

Let's go back a little in time, shall we? You're the farang that was wearing the PAD shirt and yellow headband, posting pictures on the internet, no? I'll see if I can find then again. If your PAD didn't take over the airport, there would be a lot less problems in Thailand now.

If the PAD would not have acted, most likely, Thaksin would be back by now, absolved of his crimes, vote buying would continue as it always has (without any major laws curbing it effectively)

I see the whole process as a positive. As a Canadian, I would love to see a little more civil disobedience (actually a lot more), to get rid of the clowns we have in Government. Same goes for the US, but like anywhere else, first you need to find a good alternative, otherwise, it will just be the same crap, with a different set of parasites on the top

Thailand is going through growing pains. (More or less) peaceful protests, such as these, can be a positive (regardless of the colour of the shirts). For one thing, it showed the poor, that they do have power, which I said, even back when the PAD demonstrated.

Yes, I am definitely not a "Red", as you pointed out already, but I do support the cause of the poor and abused of this country. Anything that will lead to more power for the poor, I am for it If Thaksin was out of the equation and this was a movement for social justice, I would be the first one to support it.

[kurtgruen]

double post, sorry

Edited April 5, 2010 by kurtgruen

[kurtgruen]

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

The only "good guys", I see, is the ones who are fighting for social justice, no matter what colour of shirt they happen to wear or don't wear. Let's face it, both Governments were controlled by the rich and powerful (maybe different camps of the rich and powerful, but it still amounts to the same thing).

Right now, I see the Abhisit Government, as the lesser of two evils. They have worked towards bringing more transparency into Government, which is a good start. Road construction projects are being completed, which sat more more less idle for many years now, social programs (as few as they are), have been continued and property tax laws are on the verge of being enforced.

The red protests, to me, are a good thing, as they bring attention to social justice issues, but, like I said before, they need to loose Thaksin as their poster child. I think the reason they haven't is, that without his money, they are afraid, that the demonstrators would go home, except for a few hardcore people.

Thaksin is not interested in social justice. He wants power and/or more money. Many of the red shit leaders are there, because they have a lot to loose, if the Democrats stay in power. Again, it boils down to a guy, who portrays himself as a champion of the poor, by thowing them a few crumbs. Guys like Thaksin, need to be taken out of the equation, if true social justice is to come into play.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

The only "good guys", I see, is the ones who are fighting for social justice, no matter what colour of shirt they happen to wear or don't wear. Let's face it, both Governments were controlled by the rich and powerful (maybe different camps of the rich and powerful, but it still amounts to the same thing).

Right now, I see the Abhisit Government, as the lesser of two evils. They have worked towards bringing more transparency into Government, which is a good start. Road construction projects are being completed, which sat more more less idle for many years now, social programs (as few as they are), have been continued and property tax laws are on the verge of being enforced.

The red protests, to me, are a good thing, as they bring attention to social justice issues, but, like I said before, they need to loose Thaksin as their poster child. I think the reason they haven't is, that without his money, they are afraid, that the demonstrators would go home, except for a few hardcore people.

Thaksin is not interested in social justice. He wants power and/or more money. Many of the red shit leaders are there, because they have a lot to loose, if the Democrats stay in power. Again, it boils down to a guy, who portrays himself as a champion of the poor, by thowing them a few crumbs. Guys like Thaksin, need to be taken out of the equation, if true social justice is to come into play.

I will not give any opinion on your statement except that we agree that the conditions of life of the poorest (and particularly the Northern region) is fuelling the conflict, that the 2 speed development of Thailand is socially unacceptable.

We try to facilitate the discussion between both sides.

In this attempt to start a dialog, you can understand that we have to avoid giving any opinion on the Red or Yellow shirts, it will be counter productive and destroy the aim of the thread.

Please develop your ideas that you would like Government and Red shirts discuss.

thanks

[animatic]

What ever happened to the brave lady Auditor General who railed against Government exceses? Attempts were made to dismiss her but after a two year wait for a hearing the courts came down on her side. All a a misunderstanding of course. I suggest that she be at the centre of a massive clean up.

Khunying Jaruvan Mantika, is one of the people in Thailand I first came to respect greatly.

Her courage and technical abilities in the face of abuse from Thaksin's team to remove or marginalize her was inspiring.

I think she is just quietly doing her high level auditing job and keeping on keeping on.

[Sunderland]

A road map for change to help the poor would at least be a start.

However, the fact that it is already 2010 shows how inept this and previous Thai governments have been at helping society up until now.

[animatic]

But, whatever this government does, it will be discounted by the thaksinites ...

Yes quite right . My gf tells me that Abhisit is ruining the country by loaning money while the "peasant"- billionaire repaid all the IMF loans and that land owners will be ruined by all the taxes .

Wonder where she got such idea

Can't imagine where she got this... LOL.

Thaksin paid off the IMF, with NEW LOANS to Singapore, longer term but lower interest...

in the end the Thai people pay more. The kicker for Thaksin was saying 'he got the IMF off Thailands back...'

Nationalist claptrap, nothing more.

Excepting that Thailand is an original member of the IMF and the loans were cheap and needed,

to get over Thaksin's ex boss Chavalit's cock-up over Devaluation in 1997... Thaksin was in government at that time...

IMF is a fund powered by MANY countries based on a % of their national financial state,

to make loans to any nation in need of assistance. It is a financial escape valve for times of trouble.

Hardly the international weapon against Thais well being that Thaksin tried to paint it while taking credit.

Thailand, as a member, still pays into IMF to this day, to help countries in need of financial assistance.

The IMF DID put on due diligence and probity restrictions as in;

'We are watching and you can't do funny stuff with the books...' Thaksin didn't like these.

So Thaksin got rid of the IMF to get the eyes off his back, pointedly make some nationalist points in issan,

AND get a freer hand to do his deals as he liked, no international watch dog... Oh and make some profit

for his Friends in Singapore, who not coincidentally also bought his company a few years later...

Abhisit has taken loans from abroad to cover loses caused when the WORLD ECONOMY tanked.

But also the loans were bigger because Thaksin, Samak and Somchai's PPP party COMPLETELY missed

the melt down of Wall Street and the World Economy and made the Thai situation worse for it.

PPP in government was so fixated on 'the Thaksin problem' that they saw nothing beyond their nostrils.

So your girl friend is partly right, just some rather pertinent facts

are purposely left out of the Thaksin narative,

and the PTP one that follows.

So we see a pattern of pre-TRT players and Post TRT players screwing up in the international economic arena.

2 times, badly enough to require international loans to help with the recovery...

1st time in 1997 CAUSING the international collapse; Asian Tiger implosion.

2nd time 2008, 11 years laster they just don't even notice it happening around them....

this is the crew the Red Shirts want to run Thailand again...

Their mistakes don't just affect Thailand but ASEAN as a whole.

Edited April 6, 2010 by animatic

[Jerrytheyoung]

In summary until now we propose

- a road map for helping the poor

- decentralisation with elected Governors

- independant, transparent and centralised fundings

- properties and inheritance taxes as proposed by governement to be implemented

- agencies and not a specific Cabinet...

I will propose amidst Anti Corruption measures, first to clean Police:

- fines paid by "tax stamps" and not directly in cash (Stamps available in outlets like 7/11). management of the fines by Ministry of Finances (French system). Any policeman receiving cash means 'bribes".

- a Super Police team independant from hierarchy receiving the claims and doing the investigations

For elections, the budget intended to be used, should be declared (limited by law to a reasonable amount). Non respect of this rule wearing void of the election and a non eligibility for several years.

waiting more suggestions for building the road map

[Jerrytheyoung]

But, whatever this government does, it will be discounted by the thaksinites ...

Yes quite right . My gf tells me that Abhisit is ruining the country by loaning money while the "peasant"- billionaire repaid all the IMF loans and that land owners will be ruined by all the taxes .

Wonder where she got such idea

Can't imagine where she got this... LOL.

Thaksin paid off the IMF, with NEW LOANS to Singapore, longer term but lower interest...

in the end the Thai people pay more. The kicker for Thaksin was saying 'he got the IMF off Thailands back...'

Nationalist claptrap, nothing more.

Excepting that Thialand is an original member of the IMF and the loans were cheap and needed,

to get over Thaksin's ex boss Chavalit's cock-up over Devaluation in 1997... Thaksin was in government at that time...

IMF is a fund powered by MANY countries based on a % of their national financial state,

to make loans to anynation in need of assistance. It is a financial escape valve for times of trouble.

Hardly the international weapon against Thais well being that Thaksin tried to paint it while taking credit.

Thailand, as a member, still pays into IMF to this day, to help countries in need of financial assistance.

The IMF DID put on due diligence and probity restrictions as in;

'We are watching and you can't do funny stuff with the books...' Thaksin didn't like these.

So Thaksin got rid of the IMF to get the eyes off his back, pointedly make some nationalist points in issan,

AND get a freer hand to do his deals as he liked, no international watch dog... Oh and make some profit

for his Friends in Singapore, who not coincidentally also bought his company a few years later...

Abhisit has taken loans from abroad to cover loses caused when the WORLD ECONOMY tanked.

But also the loans were bigger because Thaksin, Samak and Somchai's PPP party COMPLETELY missed

the melt down of Wall Street and the World Economy and made the Thai situation worse for it.

PPP in government was so fixated on 'the Thaksin problem' that they saw nothing beyond their nostrils.

So your girl friend is partly right, just some rather pertinent facts

are purposely left out of the Thaksin narative,

and the PTP one that follows.

So we see a pattern of pre-TRT players and Post TRT players screwing up in the international economic arena.

2 times, badly enough to require international loans to help with the recovery...

1st time the CAUSING the internationa collapse; Asian Tiger implosion.

Round two 10 years laster they just don't even notice it happening around them....

this is the crew the Red Shirts want to run Thailand again...

Animatic,

We try to be POSITIVE in this thread. Plenty of other threads to expose your opinion pro or con Thaksin, Red Shirts or Yellow shirts.

We try to build a platform acceptable by both sides and in order to be credible, we have to keep our opinion in our pocket.

Thank you for understanding what we try to do in this thread at the difference of the other ones.

Because at the end of the dispute, everything must finish in a discussion, if not the issues are only be postponed to the next crisis...

Thank you for understanding what we try to do in this thread at the difference with other ones.

[animatic]

In summary until now we propose

- a road map for helping the poor

- decentralisation with elected Governors

- independant, transparent and centralised fundings

- properties and inheritance taxes as proposed by governement to be implemented

- agencies and not a specific Cabinet...

I will propose amidst Anti Corruption measures, first to clean Police:

- fines paid by "tax stamps" and not directly in cash (Stamps available in outlets like 7/11). management of the fines by Ministry of Finances (French system). Any policeman receiving cash means 'bribes".

- a Super Police team independant from hierarchy receiving the claims and doing the investigations

For elections, the budget intended to be used, should be declared (limited by law to a reasonable amount). Non respect of this rule wearing void of the election and a non eligibility for several years.

waiting more suggestions for building the road map

Jerry c'est bien, all good ideas, especially the tax stamp/ tampon officiel!

Cuts them off at the pass, so to speak.

We need to specifically determine where this largess goes to.

Targets of aid or infrastructure improvement delineated.

Certainly rain water catchments to help with regular droughts would be a major

part and also put many workers to work building them.

And what can be done to take the profit mongering out of the hands of rice millers and exporters,

and put some into the farmers hands. The inflated prices don't ever go to producers,

mostly middlemen/brokers.

And how about some teeth for the Abhist Education Panel to force recalcitrant schools

and regional school boards into ACTUALLY making the changes they want done.

Education is the surest route out of poverty, lets make sure they CAN implement

their bureaucracy by passing ideas.

Edited April 6, 2010 by animatic

[Jerrytheyoung]

The ideas are there.... but nobody catchs them:

- the Red Shirts have a truncated platform

- Abhisit should defuse the situation by adressing directly to the "grassroots". But is he enclosed by his coalition partners? And he focus only on the immediate situation.

In any case thank to Thaworn to have put some positive ideas on the table: I am sure it will be useful at some time when the discussion will cool down, id-est, when the Pro or Co Thaksin will stop to throw arguments and vitriol to each other in an endless (and becoming useless and boring) debate, when they will begin to realise that the real issues are quite different.

[kurtgruen]

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

The only "good guys", I see, is the ones who are fighting for social justice, no matter what colour of shirt they happen to wear or don't wear. Let's face it, both Governments were controlled by the rich and powerful (maybe different camps of the rich and powerful, but it still amounts to the same thing).

Right now, I see the Abhisit Government, as the lesser of two evils. They have worked towards bringing more transparency into Government, which is a good start. Road construction projects are being completed, which sat more more less idle for many years now, social programs (as few as they are), have been continued and property tax laws are on the verge of being enforced.

The red protests, to me, are a good thing, as they bring attention to social justice issues, but, like I said before, they need to loose Thaksin as their poster child. I think the reason they haven't is, that without his money, they are afraid, that the demonstrators would go home, except for a few hardcore people.

Thaksin is not interested in social justice. He wants power and/or more money. Many of the red shit leaders are there, because they have a lot to loose, if the Democrats stay in power. Again, it boils down to a guy, who portrays himself as a champion of the poor, by thowing them a few crumbs. Guys like Thaksin, need to be taken out of the equation, if true social justice is to come into play.

I will not give any opinion on your statement except that we agree that the conditions of life of the poorest (and particularly the Northern region) is fuelling the conflict, that the 2 speed development of Thailand is socially unacceptable.

We try to facilitate the discussion between both sides.

In this attempt to start a dialog, you can understand that we have to avoid giving any opinion on the Red or Yellow shirts, it will be counter productive and destroy the aim of the thread.

Please develop your ideas that you would like Government and Red shirts discuss.

thanks

At this point and time, I believe that the only way, the people will stop their protests, is if they see some concrete action from the government, not just words. For example, a commitment to quality, universal health care for all, adequate payments for goods produced by small farmers, real measures of taking care of the elderly and disabled, an education system that provides good, quality education to all Thais, regardless of if they live in the cities or rural areas...

Now, I am not talking about a welfare state here. I am talking a committment to basic human rights, which everyone in the world should be able to enjoy, at this point of human evolution.

Thai People, in general, are hard working and deserve a better life.

The way I see it, is that the demostrators need to drop their figurehead (Thaksin), if they expect the Government to give in to any of their demands. On the other side, the Government needs to make concrete committments, that adress the needs of the poor. (and do it quick). They need to do more than just make statements of intent, they need to give the people something concrete, that they can take home with them. Promises by the Government on (social) issues which concern them.

If the government doesn't offer then anything, except for talk, it will mean, that they are not prepared to do anything for the poor. If I was there and heard nothing but talk and no action, I would stay out on the streets, too. This is one big chance, for the poor of Thailand, to make change happen. They would be foolish to walk away empty handed now.

Yes, it is "inconveniencing" others, but I think the poor themselves, have been "inconvenienced" long enough, by the greed of the rich and powerful, in this country and they have a right to fight back.

Once again, I think they need competent leadership. Get rid of Thaksin and his little mafia and get some people up there, on stage, who are truly fighting for social justice. Let's face it, the Government wants the poor to peacefully go home and want the problem to go away. In my opinion, most of the people in Government, do not have the interest of the poor at heart, not in this Government and not in previous Governments, either.

Social change, doesn't always come peaceful, in fact it rarely does, if you look at history. I say, Too much talk - Not enough action. It's time for the government to make some real commitments, which benefit the poor in a real and concrete way. There are enough educated brains to draw on, in this country, to make positive change happen.

I don't know, why the poor are asking for an election. What's gonna' happen, if the Government agrees to holding elections??? Someone else, rich and powerful, will get into power, the situation of the poor will remain nearly the same and not much will have changed. This can be the day of the poor, if they manage to cut the strings of their puppet masters and stand up for themselves and their own issues. There are enough people, to force the Government to make some major concessions to the poor.

(Again, please excuse my spelling. English is not my first language)

[Jerrytheyoung]

Some people have stated that he was the good guy.... Prove it, you have the opportunity and everything to win....

The only "good guys", I see, is the ones who are fighting for social justice, no matter what colour of shirt they happen to wear or don't wear. Let's face it, both Governments were controlled by the rich and powerful (maybe different camps of the rich and powerful, but it still amounts to the same thing).

Right now, I see the Abhisit Government, as the lesser of two evils. They have worked towards bringing more transparency into Government, which is a good start. Road construction projects are being completed, which sat more more less idle for many years now, social programs (as few as they are), have been continued and property tax laws are on the verge of being enforced.

The red protests, to me, are a good thing, as they bring attention to social justice issues, but, like I said before, they need to loose Thaksin as their poster child. I think the reason they haven't is, that without his money, they are afraid, that the demonstrators would go home, except for a few hardcore people.

Thaksin is not interested in social justice. He wants power and/or more money. Many of the red shit leaders are there, because they have a lot to loose, if the Democrats stay in power. Again, it boils down to a guy, who portrays himself as a champion of the poor, by thowing them a few crumbs. Guys like Thaksin, need to be taken out of the equation, if true social justice is to come into play.

I will not give any opinion on your statement except that we agree that the conditions of life of the poorest (and particularly the Northern region) is fuelling the conflict, that the 2 speed development of Thailand is socially unacceptable.

We try to facilitate the discussion between both sides.

In this attempt to start a dialog, you can understand that we have to avoid giving any opinion on the Red or Yellow shirts, it will be counter productive and destroy the aim of the thread.

Please develop your ideas that you would like Government and Red shirts discuss.

thanks

At this point and time, I believe that the only way, the people will stop their protests, is if they see some concrete action from the government, not just words. For example, a commitment to quality, universal health care for all, adequate payments for goods produced by small farmers, real measures of taking care of the elderly and disabled, an education system that provides good, quality education to all Thais, regardless of if they live in the cities or rural areas...

Now, I am not talking about a welfare state here. I am talking a committment to basic human rights, which everyone in the world should be able to enjoy, at this point of human evolution.

Thai People, in general, are hard working and deserve a better life.

The way I see it, is that the demostrators need to drop their figurehead (Thaksin), if they expect the Government to give in to any of their demands. On the other side, the Government needs to make concrete committments, that adress the needs of the poor. (and do it quick). They need to do more than just make statements of intent, they need to give the people something concrete, that they can take home with them. Promises by the Government on (social) issues which concern them.

If the government doesn't offer then anything, except for talk, it will mean, that they are not prepared to do anything for the poor. If I was there and heard nothing but talk and no action, I would stay out on the streets, too. This is one big chance, for the poor of Thailand, to make change happen. They would be foolish to walk away empty handed now.

Yes, it is "inconveniencing" others, but I think the poor themselves, have been "inconvenienced" long enough, by the greed of the rich and powerful, in this country and they have a right to fight back.

Once again, I think they need competent leadership. Get rid of Thaksin and his little mafia and get some people up there, on stage, who are truly fighting for social justice. Let's face it, the Government wants the poor to peacefully go home and want the problem to go away. In my opinion, most of the people in Government, do not have the interest of the poor at heart, not in this Government and not in previous Governments, either.

Social change, doesn't always come peaceful, in fact it rarely does, if you look at history. I say, Too much talk - Not enough action. It's time for the government to make some real commitments, which benefit the poor in a real and concrete way. There are enough educated brains to draw on, in this country, to make positive change happen.

I don't know, why the poor are asking for an election. What's gonna' happen, if the Government agrees to holding elections??? Someone else, rich and powerful, will get into power, the situation of the poor will remain nearly the same and not much will have changed. This can be the day of the poor, if they manage to cut the strings of their puppet masters and stand up for themselves and their own issues. There are enough people, to force the Government to make some major concessions to the poor.

(Again, please excuse my spelling. English is not my first language)

The debate about Thaksin supporters or Abhisit ones is done through several very active threads. One thing must happen at the end: discussions for getting out this mess. If the battle is furious on the House dissolution/ elections topics, most of observers are also stating that there are underground issues fuelling the conflict.

Obviously the discussions are already enlarged to those background issues. At the initiative of the Human Right Committee, four Thai ex PM (amidst them Anand and chavalit) will meet after Songkran in order to make some proposals.

So, does not matter the way the negotiation will happen at the end of the conflict, but it has to happen. In order to prepare this unavoidable discussion, as a pre-requisite, we must not fuel the conflict by supporting any of the leaders: this is a killer of our efforts to promote an honourable and useful end for restoring unity and peace amidst Thais, reconciliation of Bankokians and Northern population.

It will be frustrating that such a conflict ends without bringing solutions to the deep underground issues particularly the situation of Northern Thailand and the development at 2 different speeds. We try to promote ideas in order to solve the medium and long term issues not the immediate ones.

If you understand what we are trying to do, you will avoid to give your opinion on the Current Government or Thaksin in this current thread: for expressing your opinion about this, plenty of opportunities are opened through nearly a dozen of other threads. (But the arguments are mostly the sames, and the debate is becoming useless, boring and is not constructive....)

Thank you

Post Scriptum: I am not an English native speaking: I am French.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung