Democrat MPs Angry Over Suthep's Soft Handling Of Red-Shirts

[moresomekl]

Tomorrow is a national holiday. Bangkok residents should hold their own counter protest in the streets surrounding Rajasaprong and see how the Reds enjoy being prevented from having freedom of movement. Keep them from wandering off to restaurants and hotels and bathrooms. Make their lives as miserable as they want make the lives of Bangkok residents. If the police won't enforce the laws that have been implemented the Reds will never leave.

Yellows were there for 6months, let's hope the reds are there for a year!!!

[britmaveric]

Don't disagree Brit. I believe there is court case going on about the previously mentioned (again and again). Anyways, what happens if he doesn't dissolve the house, Reds gonna sit there till the next election?

Well would it surprise you if the Reds did stay there til the next election? I guess the true test is what happens during Songkran - if they pack it up then that will be the end of that until the next time around.

[jdinasia]

Seems like the red shirts have finally found a way to get the attention of the Bangkok elite--hit them in their pocketbooks!. Funny how serious the tone has become since the protest has settled in the center of capitalism in Bangkok. If this is not a class struggle, why has the outrage about the protests gone up several notches since their occupation of the Rachaprasong area? At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)

Ah, but the current government has funded and implemented more sustainable programs to alleviate problems for the rural poor than Thaksin ever did. What they have not done is hand out CASH. For instance they have taken the 30 baht health-care plan that Thaksin claimed for his own (it wasn't) and made it free AND increased funding for it. The current government is working with debt relief for rural poor even though much of that debt was taken on during Thaksin's give-aways etc.

Your suggestion that the rally is peaceful is fabricated out of whole cloth. The red leadership has threatened violence at every turn and has recently spoken of atarting violence from the stage. They have also threatened the use of guerilla forces AND have threatened to make BKK look worse than the South when it comes to bombings. That is NOT peaceful.

Why has outrage gone up? The PAD demonstrated at Government House (out of the way) similar to where the Reds were (300 meters away). When they moved to the corner where a MAJOR hospital is they started inconveniencing and disrupting the daily lives of millions and by extension threatening even more millions.

[simmons9]

The PAD did not close the airport.

Hahahaha it never grows old, funny to see that even politicians are using it now and defending the yellow.

I defer to Post 17, but at least you didn't erroneously say he was an MP with the current government.

[BKKer2010]

Let us not forget ...

[jdinasia]

Don't disagree Brit. I believe there is court case going on about the previously mentioned (again and again). Anyways, what happens if he doesn't dissolve the house, Reds gonna sit there till the next election?

Well would it surprise you if the Reds did stay there til the next election? I guess the true test is what happens during Songkran - if they pack it up then that will be the end of that until the next time around.

No, the TRUE test is what happened LAST Songkran when the reds rioted.

[britmaveric]

^ahhh the blue shirts.

[moresomekl]

The only thing that happens in a pissing contest is both sides get wet.

Indeed as I said when the yellows took over the airports, shopping malls, and govt buildings, the govt and military should have never let this happen. However this was allowed to happen and this is what you have now whether you are for/against these sort of protests. It has become acceptable practice, so one can hardly be surprised when this indeed does happen and no one does anything to prevent it, other than make empty threats.

Don't disagree Brit. I believe there is court case going on about the previously mentioned (again and again). Anyways, what happens if he doesn't dissolve the house, Reds gonna sit there till the next election?

That is a distinct possibility

[jdinasia]

The PAD did not close the airport.

Hahahaha it never grows old, funny to see that even politicians are using it now and defending the yellow.

I defer to Post 17, but at least you didn't erroneously say he was an MP with the current government.

Do a bit of research Kiwi --- The AoT director at Suwannaphoom closed the airport. How do we know this? The AoT Board of directors blamed him publicly.

Yes the PAD entrenched themselves after the AoT surrendered the airport but they were getting grenaded almost nightly. They marched out there to intercept Somchai's return and the AoT chief at the airport panicked. I doubt he thought that they would stick around but he could have easily shifted them to a parking deck and allowed some of the PAD in legally. (Making them buy a ticket and pass through metal detectors!) Instead, he panicked. Place the blame where it lies.

BTW --- think about what it will mean for the PAD leadership's trial when they point out that they didn't close the airport and that the AoT board of directors placed the blame on one of their own! Then add the mitigation of the grenade attacks and 18 PAD members that died from them ....

[TallForeigner]

In short: you only care about your self. Whether other people suffer severe inconveniences or business losses is not your problem.

Seems you don't understand what I'm saying. A small minority are suffering some inconveniences, some have some losses in their businesses and many others now cope with the situation and make a killing. Some choose to regard their lifes as miserable because of these temporary inconveniences and some don't choose to do that. You only seem to care for those few people who feel miserable and I look at the bigger picture and see more people choosing to cope with the situation and not having made their life miserable.

Edited April 5, 2010 by TallForeigner

[jdinasia]

Don't disagree Brit. I believe there is court case going on about the previously mentioned (again and again). Anyways, what happens if he doesn't dissolve the house, Reds gonna sit there till the next election?

Well would it surprise you if the Reds did stay there til the next election? I guess the true test is what happens during Songkran - if they pack it up then that will be the end of that until the next time around.

No, the TRUE test is what happened LAST Songkran when the reds rioted.

Arismna makes the "blue shirt" argument fail .. see post 25

[TallForeigner]

Interesting how the Reds are trying to paralyze a portion of the city you say you live within but this doesn't effect your mood. Yet, a simple post on Thai Visa gets you upset.

Where do you read that I get upset by a post? Saying something is crap doesn't mean that I'm upset..it's just an expression of my opinion.

Edited April 5, 2010 by TallForeigner

[bkkjames]

In short: you only care about your self. Whether other people suffer severe inconveniences or business losses is not your problem.

Seems you don't understand what I'm saying. A small minority are suffering some inconveniences, some have some losses in their businesses and many others now cope with the situation and make a killing. Some choose to regard their lifes as miserable because of these temporary inconveniences and some don't choose to do that. You only seem to care for those few people who feel miserable and I look at the bigger picture and see more people choosing to cope with the situation and not having made their life miserable.

Ok mate, where is your business. Do you mind if we come close you down for a few days?

[anotherpeter]

Maybe the police should go in and just dismantle the stage. It has been erected illegally. If the reds shirts try and stop them then they they are obstructing police and can be dragged away.

[SomTumTiger]

Abhisit, Suthep and the Dem leadership get too little credit for their political savvy. They have done a masterful job of managing their coalition partners, keeping PTP on the defensive, and letting the Red moment talk itself into a corner. Why crackdown? The longer this plays out, the more desparate they become, and the more violent their rhetoric. The more public opinion turns against them, etc.

Thaksin and the Reds never had a chance, really, but its sad that they are determined to take a lot of innocent businesses and consumer sentimetn down with them (not to mentioned however many buses they have burned, will burn etc).

[Insight]

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

Believe it or not, I think your opinion is massively geographically challenged. I bet you all the business owners in the surrounding areas are having kittens right now about their staff from outside the area being prevented from approaching the area. Many staff workers people use public busses or drive their own cars. To think that people’s lives are not being made miserable by a rally cutting of access to the heart of a city during the first working day of the week is outright naive.

Suthep’s inability to handle the situation is again landing us with another Pattaya ASIAN conference – it’s time for him to go and this to end.

[BKKer2010]

Interesting how the Reds are trying to paralyze a portion of the city you say you live within but this doesn't effect your mood. Yet, a simple post on Thai Visa gets you upset.

Where do you read that I get upset by a post? Saying something is crap doesn't mean that I'm upset..it's just an expression of my opinion.

your first line you wrote:

What a load of absolute crap!! I live here in the middle of the Red Shirt protest literally under siege from the masses. Is my life miserable?? - Certainly not!

Any rational person would see you are upset unless you are a serial "!" and double "??" user as well as a swearer who cannot even control himself on a web forum.

[geriatrickid]

Ah, but the current government has funded and implemented more sustainable programs to alleviate problems for the rural poor than Thaksin ever did. What they have not done is hand out CASH. For instance they have taken the 30 baht health-care plan that Thaksin claimed for his own (it wasn't) and made it free AND increased funding for it. The current government is working with debt relief for rural poor even though much of that debt was taken on during Thaksin's give-aways etc.

Your suggestion that the rally is peaceful is fabricated out of whole cloth. The red leadership has threatened violence at every turn and has recently spoken of atarting violence from the stage. They have also threatened the use of guerilla forces AND have threatened to make BKK look worse than the South when it comes to bombings. That is NOT peaceful.

Why has outrage gone up? The PAD demonstrated at Government House (out of the way) similar to where the Reds were (300 meters away). When they moved to the corner where a MAJOR hospital is they started inconveniencing and disrupting the daily lives of millions and by extension threatening even more millions.

Bullsh*t. One of your favourite tactics when you disagree with someone is to demand that they substantiate the position with facts and figures, Even when they do, you try to find a petty way to denigrate the view. Well, now it's time for you to support and substantiate your statement

Ah, but the current government has funded and implemented more sustainable programs to alleviate problems for the rural poor than Thaksin ever did

I have a good memory. Almost a year ago, I made mention of the fact that various health services were unavailable in rural areas, that treatment for HIV and cancer was hard to access, and you came back with a verbal assault saying I was wrong. Then lo and behold the articles were published in TV about various health groups lamenting the very same issue and you did what you do best, you took a runner. No retraction. No apology. No comment. So now, Mr. Expert on health and social development issues, you are going to put up the facts and figures to support your position or you are going to have to deal with the ramifications of making false and misleading statements. Don't even toss up crap like the free health care, because more hospitals and physicians have opted out than ever before. You can have free health care, but if there are no medical providers willing to provide it, the health care isn't there. The classic example is on Phuket. Trying accessing health care under the scheme you speak of. I look forward to your numbers especially in respect to hospital refurbishments and materiel purchases. Don't bust a nut looking too hard because the 5 year trend has been a decrease.

BTW, the occupation of Government House disrupted the daily operations of the government. That qualified as a civil insurrection. The peaceful occupation of a non vital area while disruptive for some, is certainly not interfering with the national administration.

[steveromagnino]

Seems like the red shirts have finally found a way to get the attention of the Bangkok elite--hit them in their pocketbooks!. Funny how serious the tone has become since the protest has settled in the center of capitalism in Bangkok. If this is not a class struggle, why has the outrage about the protests gone up several notches since their occupation of the Rachaprasong area? At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)

In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!

The Bangkok elite?

You mean the ultra rich owners and workers in the Amarin food court, Paragon food court, the cleaners in Central, the sales staff in Louis Vuitton all of whom earn the massive wages of less than 20,000b? You must mean all those upcountry folk selling wares to tourists on consignment in Naraiphund, CentralWorld, Amarin, Paragon. Yes, that will learn 'em big time.

THe Bangkok 'elite' you are hitting.

Srivikorn family - former TRT Minister and banned 111 member Pimol Srivikorn and extended family - owners of Intercon, Gaysorn, Amarin, Holiday Inn and the building I am guessing tallforeigner lives in (guessing building behind President Arcade) - I am guessing that losing something like (estimated) 30-50MB in turnover per day at Gaysorn and Amarin while losing a further few mill daily in Intercon and Holiday Inn for the next year - they were NOT consulted ahead of time about this - my guess is they aren't going to stay PT if they even still are.

Chiratiwat family - majority owners of CentralWorld (CPN), minority shareholders of Big C, sole owners of Central Chitlom - usually non political this impact hits their pocket big time, and like the bombs set outside CentralWorld the first 4 months after Thaksin was ousted in the coup, may continue to damage their business. At a guess, including Dept store turnover, hotel, food court revenue, all plaza sales, are losing something like 200MB a day.

Owner of the land of Paragon and major financing shareholders - a person we can't mention who is probably the 2nd most loved in Thailand; BBL; variety of families as key tenants including some former TRT families but mostly non political except for some of the Lamsam family who are partly strongly Democrat (Nualpan) - but they are only owning Hermes now I think, and not Paragon. Majority of Thai owners of the importing companies many are 'no names' in so far as everyone knows who they are, but they are staunchly non political and aren't in the public eye. Thai fashion designers mostly anti TRT simply because TRT ruined their industry with Bangkok fashion city; however they aren't pro Dem. Losses something like 500mb a day.

Owner of Siam Square - Chulalongkorn university subcontracting to tons and tons of small SME businesses just like the food courts, the THai crafts, the jewelery, etc. Platinum Mall and Pratunam area, the same - tons and tons of SMEs.

Maneeya, Hyatt, Four Seasons - ok there are some pretty wealthy owners, but hardly any who deserve to be financially punished for daring to do business in that area.

Total losses in turnover well over 1b baht, with many costs still being incurred. This revenue, as with the bombs in Ratchaprasong in 2006, will likely not be recovered; sales drops are not like a bouncing ball in zero gravity (where they drop then rebound to make up the loss entirely); rather the tourists, the Thais who might have spent, they continue spending as they would, and this 2 day period so far is lost forever. lest we think it won't touch the working class, bonuses, numbers of staff, staff wages, etc - these are all a direct function of turnover. There are probably more staff in the retail areas that are closed now than are actually on the street (this morning, Red shirts there were less than 10,000 visible from CW to Gaysorn and down to Big C, but possibly more on Petchburi).

Ratchadamnoen and Sanarm Luang are traditional areas for protest, and in some way, residents there have ways of getting around it; there is a very big difference in coming to the heart of the city that is a major engine for country tax revenues, employment and tourism. To ask for......basically to ask for an immediate election and the subsequent right to fiddle a constitution unilaterally to allow a convicted fugitive amnesty - because we already know that they aren't talking policy or economic reform (as the red shirts don't have any policies on this stuff).

'At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)'

HEAR HEAR. I actually think that the key policies of free education, incentives and improvements in borrowing, improvements in healthcare - these are all worthwhile steps that successive govts have done - more could be done.

However this is perhaps not the best way to ask for change - to block a road of retail and hospitality and a hospital to ask for this stuff when some of it is already happening - and anyway at no point has this been, as you note, the demands of the protest - AND IT FRIGGING SHOULD BE ONE OF THE POINTS ON THE AGENDA. Clear single minded agreement on what the rural folk need. The reason of course why this doesn't ever occur, is that the rural poor will continue to elect jao pors until a genuine symbol and leader who represents them is able to transcend the local power of the Sanoh/Newin/Banharn/local baron voting attractions. And PT have no policy on this, TRT had no real policy on it - the people who really know are usually not within the room when conversations take place; instead....CP is.

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

Oh ho.....yah weng rao na. Hmmm......I think the words you are looking for is in a real democratic society, no party would dare to ask for votes with a policy to unilaterally change the constitution to the wishes of their largest funding source, but rather would be looking for ways to develop the constitution in a non partisan manner for the benefit of all Thais. I have no idea which specific policies you are referring to that the Democrats are using the protect the rights of the rich - I would be delighted to learn more on this fascinating subject, perhaps with specific reference to that billionaire 'prai' living abroad.

They have every right to protest. Good for them. But this passive aggressive attempt to grind the city to a halt while still being able to stay peaceful (which is a victory in itself, given what occurred a year ago, when the leaders couldn't control their mob) needs to say something without also screwing over the entire country/city.

Just as the yellow shirts should be punished for their transgressions, so should this mob.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[BKKer2010]

Well - everyone is as miserable as he chooses to be... My Thai wife and all her friends and neighbours in the area have got a similar positive attitude and I don't see any hatred against the Reds. I don't see anyone's life really being made miserable because of the Red Shirts.

Believe it or not, I think your opinion is massively geographically challenged. I bet you all the business owners in the surrounding areas are having kittens right now about their staff from outside the area being prevented from approaching the area. Many staff workers people use public busses or drive their own cars. To think that people’s lives are not being made miserable by a rally cutting of access to the heart of a city during the first working day of the week is outright naive.

Suthep’s inability to handle the situation is again landing us with another Pattaya ASIAN conference – it’s time for him to go and this to end.

According to him, he would be happy in a concentration camp. I just dislike when it appears people make up personal stories to support a cause and avoid simply saying what they are ... in this case a Red Shirt supporter.

[BKKer2010]

In short: you only care about your self. Whether other people suffer severe inconveniences or business losses is not your problem.

Seems you don't understand what I'm saying. A small minority are suffering some inconveniences, some have some losses in their businesses and many others now cope with the situation and make a killing. Some choose to regard their lifes as miserable because of these temporary inconveniences and some don't choose to do that. You only seem to care for those few people who feel miserable and I look at the bigger picture and see more people choosing to cope with the situation and not having made their life miserable.

Ok mate, where is your business. Do you mind if we come close you down for a few days?

It is not just a small minority suffering ... it is the entire country as a whole and especially the folks in BKK who have to live in fear from the Reds threats and wondering where the next bomb will go off. Anybody in the mental health field will tell you this is a stressful time, especially those living in BKK.

To pretend these upscale malls are not frequented by almost all those living in BKK is insane. This is one of the few things they get to do when they are not working and want to experience a nice, clean, modern and safe enviornment.

We don't even have to get into what this is doing to tourism and the impact it will likely have on Thailand with its world partners and those considering investing in the country.

[Indo-Siam]

First of all - I must completely agree that what happened in 2008 with respect to the PAD demonstrations - and the weak government response - definitely set a horrible precedent. At the time, that was my primary reaction to government reaction: "Does the Government realize that they just set Thailand up for endless repetitions of political expression via mob rule?".

So - those chickens have now come home to roost.

The Red Shirt supporters on this board always seem to think that all the Red Shirt opponents support the Yellow Shirt extremists. Well, at least for me, that is not the case. I oppose all the anarchists that want to influence politics via mob rule.

How anyone can defend the current hostage-taking of the city center in a capital city is absolutely beyond me. All over the world, peaceful protest groups have carried out marches in national capitals, to express political grievances. This is accepted, and I support that right.

But - those marches - and there have been hundreds - very many of which were much, MUCH larger than this Red-Shirt circus - have made their statement, and then gone home. They have not pursued a sustained campaign of anarchy - mob rule on the streets.

No matter what, the Thai Government must not give in to this mob - to do so would virtually guarantee a future full of disaffected parties expressing their unhappiness by shutting down the city. A mistake was made in dealing leniently with the PAD protesters - and that mistake must not be repeated.

There is no argument whatsoever that can justify the mob intimidation now unfolding on the streets. Non-violent so far - but still intimidation.

The Red attitude is ludicrous: "Yes, Bangkok, you are being disrupted, but it is not the fault of the Red Shirts - it is the fault of the Government". Who are they kidding? Where do you draw the line?

"Yes, we robbed and pillaged your store - but it is not our fault - it is the government's fault"

"Yes, we lynched ten policeman - hanging them from lamp posts - but it is not our fault - it is the government's fault"

This is absurd reasoning.

I was mildly sympathetic to the Red Shirts three weeks ago - my wife is from Mukdahan, which I have visited many times - and I recognize the feeling of disenfranchisement felt by those inhabitants of the Thai hinterlands.

But - after watching the stunts, and the arrogance of the Red leaders - and after hearing Thaksin's encouragement of mob rule - I have reached the conclusion that this movement needs to be punished severely for transgressing basic laws of conduct. Mob rule is "law of the jungle" - and is ugly and unpredictable.

Unfortunately for the Reds, in a stand-off, the status quo always wins. The Thai government isn't going to let 0.1% of its population tell it what to do. So - this thing is going to end badly - and the responsibility is going to be squarely on the shoulders of perhaps 20-50 ringleaders of the Red Shirt movement.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Indo-Siam

[BKKer2010]

Seems like the red shirts have finally found a way to get the attention of the Bangkok elite--hit them in their pocketbooks!. Funny how serious the tone has become since the protest has settled in the center of capitalism in Bangkok. If this is not a class struggle, why has the outrage about the protests gone up several notches since their occupation of the Rachaprasong area? At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)

In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!

The Bangkok elite?

You mean the ultra rich owners and workers in the Amarin food court, Paragon food court, the cleaners in Central, the sales staff in Louis Vuitton all of whom earn the massive wages of less than 20,000b? You must mean all those upcountry folk selling wares to tourists on consignment in Naraiphund, CentralWorld, Amarin, Paragon. Yes, that will learn 'em big time.

THe Bangkok 'elite' you are hitting.

Srivikorn family - former TRT Minister and banned 111 member Pimol Srivikorn and extended family - owners of Intercon, Gaysorn, Amarin, Holiday Inn and the building I am guessing tallforeigner lives in (guessing building behind President Arcade) - I am guessing that losing something like (estimated) 30-50MB in turnover per day at Gaysorn and Amarin while losing a further few mill daily in Intercon and Holiday Inn for the next year - they were NOT consulted ahead of time about this - my guess is they aren't going to stay PT if they even still are.

Chiratiwat family - majority owners of CentralWorld (CPN), minority shareholders of Big C, sole owners of Central Chitlom - usually non political this impact hits their pocket big time, and like the bombs set outside CentralWorld the first 4 months after Thaksin was ousted in the coup, may continue to damage their business. At a guess, including Dept store turnover, hotel, food court revenue, all plaza sales, are losing something like 200MB a day.

Owner of the land of Paragon and major financing shareholders - a person we can't mention who is probably the 2nd most loved in Thailand; BBL; variety of families as key tenants including some former TRT families but mostly non political except for some of the Lamsam family who are partly strongly Democrat (Nualpan) - but they are only owning Hermes now I think, and not Paragon. Majority of Thai owners of the importing companies many are 'no names' in so far as everyone knows who they are, but they are staunchly non political and aren't in the public eye. Thai fashion designers mostly anti TRT simply because TRT ruined their industry with Bangkok fashion city; however they aren't pro Dem. Losses something like 500mb a day.

Owner of Siam Square - Chulalongkorn university subcontracting to tons and tons of small SME businesses just like the food courts, the THai crafts, the jewelery, etc. Platinum Mall and Pratunam area, the same - tons and tons of SMEs.

Maneeya, Hyatt, Four Seasons - ok there are some pretty wealthy owners, but hardly any who deserve to be financially punished for daring to do business in that area.

Total losses in turnover well over 1b baht, with many costs still being incurred. This revenue, as with the bombs in Ratchaprasong in 2006, will likely not be recovered; sales drops are not like a bouncing ball in zero gravity (where they drop then rebound to make up the loss entirely); rather the tourists, the Thais who might have spent, they continue spending as they would, and this 2 day period so far is lost forever. lest we think it won't touch the working class, bonuses, numbers of staff, staff wages, etc - these are all a direct function of turnover. There are probably more staff in the retail areas that are closed now than are actually on the street (this morning, Red shirts there were less than 10,000 visible from CW to Gaysorn and down to Big C, but possibly more on Petchburi).

Ratchadamnoen and Sanarm Luang are traditional areas for protest, and in some way, residents there have ways of getting around it; there is a very big difference in coming to the heart of the city that is a major engine for country tax revenues, employment and tourism. To ask for......basically to ask for an immediate election and the subsequent right to fiddle a constitution unilaterally to allow a convicted fugitive amnesty - because we already know that they aren't talking policy or economic reform (as the red shirts don't have any policies on this stuff).

'At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)'

HEAR HEAR. I actually think that the key policies of free education, incentives and improvements in borrowing, improvements in healthcare - these are all worthwhile steps that successive govts have done - more could be done.

However this is perhaps not the best way to ask for change - to block a road of retail and hospitality and a hospital to ask for this stuff when some of it is already happening - and anyway at no point has this been, as you note, the demands of the protest - AND IT FRIGGING SHOULD BE ONE OF THE POINTS ON THE AGENDA. Clear single minded agreement on what the rural folk need. The reason of course why this doesn't ever occur, is that the rural poor will continue to elect jao pors until a genuine symbol and leader who represents them is able to transcend the local power of the Sanoh/Newin/Banharn/local baron voting attractions. And PT have no policy on this, TRT had no real policy on it - the people who really know are usually not within the room when conversations take place; instead....CP is.

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

Oh ho.....yah weng rao na. Hmmm......I think the words you are looking for is in a real democratic society, no party would dare to ask for votes with a policy to unilaterally change the constitution to the wishes of their largest funding source, but rather would be looking for ways to develop the constitution in a non partisan manner for the benefit of all Thais. I have no idea which specific policies you are referring to that the Democrats are using the protect the rights of the rich - I would be delighted to learn more on this fascinating subject, perhaps with specific reference to that billionaire 'prai' living abroad.

They have every right to protest. Good for them. But this passive aggressive attempt to grind the city to a halt while still being able to stay peaceful (which is a victory in itself, given what occurred a year ago, when the leaders couldn't control their mob) needs to say something without also screwing over the entire country/city.

Just as the yellow shirts should be punished for their transgressions, so should this mob.

Great and informative post.

Any guess as to how many people cannot go to work and earn $$ due to the mob taking over the streets?

[animatic]

He said he could not understand why the red shirts seemed inclined to attack the yellow shirts - who were not in a position of power.

The red shirts had no justification in faulting the yellow shirts, he said.

For example, the yellow shirts were not responsible for the closure of Suvarnabhumi Airport in 2008, he claimed, arguing that the shut-down was ordered by airport manager Serirat Prasutanont, who is a relative of red-shirt leader Veera.

LOL WAT?

The age of NEWSPEAK IS UPON US!

Now MPs are spewing historical revision.

Hey Democrats! Who is your FM? Was he on a PAD stage?

Did Sondhi declare "NoOne but Abhisit is acceptable for PM?"

The members of this forum love to snipe away and crazy red ramblings, now lets see if they have the integrity to equally stomp down on the lies spewing from the sitting government.

No silence,

some of us just have lives outside of the TVF nutshell.

So to quote you

now lets see if they have the integrity to equally stomp down on the lies spewing from the sitting government.

So ity's clear you can't even read the OP properly...

sorry but these are the words of

New Politics Party secretary general Suriyasai Katasila

Not anyone in the sitting government, not even the dubious Kasit.

So the words of a so far unelected politician is not to be construed

as the words of the sitting government,

no matter how you want to stretch this theme to fit your aims.

[jdinasia]

Ah, but the current government has funded and implemented more sustainable programs to alleviate problems for the rural poor than Thaksin ever did. What they have not done is hand out CASH. For instance they have taken the 30 baht health-care plan that Thaksin claimed for his own (it wasn't) and made it free AND increased funding for it. The current government is working with debt relief for rural poor even though much of that debt was taken on during Thaksin's give-aways etc.

Your suggestion that the rally is peaceful is fabricated out of whole cloth. The red leadership has threatened violence at every turn and has recently spoken of atarting violence from the stage. They have also threatened the use of guerilla forces AND have threatened to make BKK look worse than the South when it comes to bombings. That is NOT peaceful.

Why has outrage gone up? The PAD demonstrated at Government House (out of the way) similar to where the Reds were (300 meters away). When they moved to the corner where a MAJOR hospital is they started inconveniencing and disrupting the daily lives of millions and by extension threatening even more millions.

Bullsh*t. One of your favourite tactics when you disagree with someone is to demand that they substantiate the position with facts and figures, Even when they do, you try to find a petty way to denigrate the view. Well, now it's time for you to support and substantiate your statement

Ah, but the current government has funded and implemented more sustainable programs to alleviate problems for the rural poor than Thaksin ever did

I have a good memory. Almost a year ago, I made mention of the fact that various health services were unavailable in rural areas, that treatment for HIV and cancer was hard to access, and you came back with a verbal assault saying I was wrong. Then lo and behold the articles were published in TV about various health groups lamenting the very same issue and you did what you do best, you took a runner. No retraction. No apology. No comment. So now, Mr. Expert on health and social development issues, you are going to put up the facts and figures to support your position or you are going to have to deal with the ramifications of making false and misleading statements. Don't even toss up crap like the free health care, because more hospitals and physicians have opted out than ever before. You can have free health care, but if there are no medical providers willing to provide it, the health care isn't there. The classic example is on Phuket. Trying accessing health care under the scheme you speak of. I look forward to your numbers especially in respect to hospital refurbishments and materiel purchases. Don't bust a nut looking too hard because the 5 year trend has been a decrease.

BTW, the occupation of Government House disrupted the daily operations of the government. That qualified as a civil insurrection. The peaceful occupation of a non vital area while disruptive for some, is certainly not interfering with the national administration.

You state facts like "more have opted out than ever before" and while a few HAVE opted out (mostly in BKK) most have not.

You speak of the 5 year Trend and fail to note that most of the 5 years were under TRT and PPP rule.

The RECENT increase in funding through the Democrats is new and we have yet to see how well it works but the budget is there for it.

I am not in Phuket but when I was the medical services were pathetic --- that was under Thaksin's 30 baht scheme that was not changed after the coup.

Feel free to try and discredit my views but what you have posted surely doesn't

BTW Squatting at Government house only made the PM shift to another building. You may be right that it amounts to insurrection but only if the COURTS say so, until then it is just your opinion.

[SurinLA]

In supporting some of Mr. "ozzieman05" comments, I to beleive education is the best tool to allow the rural people to make their own decision and understand the information they face, specially in politics. I also see that Taksin and REDS popularity are declining in my village and in my county and province as well.

My county's SO-SO (representative) is a PHEU THAI member. In my village, we used to be DEMOCRAT party supporters before TAKSIN. Now no one talks much about Taksin or REDS anymore. They would rather take care the families and work for their everyday living. They just want to live in peacefull way of life and improve their living. They work with local government branch (O-BO-TO) to solve most village problems.

When Taksin becamse a PM the first 3 years, he was JUST LIKE any other PM to farmers. He became popular to the rural ESARN people only when he promissed to forgive the farmers debts and then giving each village "1 million baht" loan project. The second project was the "30 baht" for life membership for health care. Both projects were failed project. Most Thai people know that. There were couple more programs he brought to the rurals but nothing were more important than those two.

I found that the debts forgiving program and the "1 million baht" project made people getting poorer and more debts. The reason is that when those country people realize that they have the government taking care of their debts, they advance more debts. They think they are getting free rides (living above their means). Nobody cares where the government gets the money from.

For example, in my village of 500 housewholes, an average income for each family is about 50,000 baht per year. They went out buying things like mortercycle(40,000 baht), TV(5000 baht), tracktors ( 80000 baht), builiding new houses(300000 baht)...etc. They would borrow some of the money from Farmer Banks at the rate of 6%/yr, and the rest from the third party who would charge them 5%/month. At the end of the year, these farmers cannot pay off debts and the interests keep adding up. All of these happened in the last 5 years. This is a mass and it is never ending. It happens to my aunts and uncles families as well.

After Taksin was convicted for corruption, most people were not beleived he was guilty. After the more they talk and listen or watch it on TV, they realize that it must be true. Then when the high court read the big rulling on Taksin and family inside trading currently, they start to see that maybe he is realy guilty ( and corrupt). They also learn more and have some information from asking people who are teachers or who have higher education.

They are now benefited from many of the programs Aphisit Govt. brought to them including free education through 9th grade, and they are happy with the program that elders over 60th now recieve 1000 baht/month govt. fund.

Remember, farmers from ESARN only work 6 months a year. By DECEMBER or January, mostly hudsbands will go to Bangkok to find temporary works, make some money for their rice seasons. They will start going home during Thai New Year from April 12 every eyar. At home, the wives will take care the houses and children. The ladies will spend the rest of the day ( 9 am - 4 pm) gossiping, talking to each other, or doing nothing. Very few read newspapers or may not be able to read. they realize on the rumors most of the time.

Before Taksin, life was very easy. Rich or poor in the village were happy and we helped each other all the time. Now, people become very materialistic, back stabbing, greedy. You cannot ask someone to help without paying them for work, not even the relatives.

If you observe who the leaders that brings the redshirt protesters into Bangkok, you will see that those are the one who gain the most from Taksin. For example, Kwanchai Praipana. He has the "Love Udon" organization and he is the big boss from NE. He brings at least 2000 protesters from UDON. Many UDON friends told me that he probably has hundred of million baht in the bank and lives in a very large house ( not money from work).

ozzieman05 wife's family is probably 400 kilometers from my village in Surin. The comments about his wife family is very similar to my village. This may tell you something that some rural people have changed their views on Taksin and REDS rally.

[BKKer2010]

Due to the red-shirt rally, the Bangkok Mass Transit Authority has temporarily suspended more than 30 bus routes.

The 184 hotline is being flooded with calls by the public regarding bus services.

Yes, stick it to these rich bus riding elite class!

[steveromagnino]

Great and informative post.

Any guess as to how many people cannot go to work and earn $$ due to the mob taking over the streets?

Office workers in the area encouraged to take the day off - they must do something for the day so presumably generate cash - estimate probably something like 10,000 - 50,000 workers not working today as a fairly direct result of encouragement not to come to work (total guess - I don't think anyone knows and I don't work in that area). Centralworld offices has staff approx 10,000 people apparently I have no idea how many are or aren't working today. Total office workers in the area is over 100,000.

Note many weren't gonig to work anyhow, as tomorrow is a holiday. So it is very hard to blame/judge.

In the surruonding area, many people also not working today - because as I have said before many times - the red shirts aren't giving advance notice of their movements, no one knows how to plan. This is a major flaw in the way they operate; the news reporters, the workers, the residents - no one has a clue what they are going to do this afternoon for instance. So no one can plan. I am sure you were aware yesterday that the Police Hospital was pleading as they needed certain things to come in and out - patients, blood etc - rank and file red shirters are ordered (they have a full walkie talkie network, it is cells of groups of 10-50, with one leader, who reports to a leader who controls 20-50 leaders, who reports up the chain) to stop all traffic so they do. Including ambulances etc. At no point was something like toilets considered for instance, hence the request phrased as a threat - open the mall for us to take a dump, or we will take a dump on the sides of your premises.

Retail staff in the area assuming CW, Gaysorn, Amarin, Paragon, Big C, Platinum, Siam Discovery are all closed completely. Guess I would say 20,000-30,000 employees minimum aren't coming to work each day this drags on.

Some of these will lose their wages as they are paid daily/hourly; many will be affected in annual bonuses; business owners will all lose turnover; staff have to share in this loss.

It depends - so far the mob is well behaved. If they decide to act up which seems increasingly unlikely (surprisingly to me, given some of the motorcycle taxis and taxi drivers I know are amping for a fight) then this will be ugly. If they behave, then the effect on the area, may only last a few weeks. Otherwise, it may be months - Centralworld is still recovering from the deathblow of bombs destroying the annual countdown at end of 2006; alleged to have been set on Thaksin's orders (as no one else has motive); after that tourists and locals steered clear of the area and in the meantime, Paragon hit paydirt.

Do we really need a sell out who went and helped Cambodia instead of Thailand? This is the mindset I hear in southern Isaan - some of the red shirts are now saying Buriram people are bad - they are fake red shirts who are 'look nong' Newin. Apparently every bad act that the red shirts ever did was Newin - and Newin is responsible for all corruption in the current govt (because they cannot easily blame Aphisit and Korn who everyone knows are actually personally very clean).

This makes for an interesting split; certainly southern Isaan is getting less and less pro Thaksin...Northern Isaan and the North are going the other way.

I personally think an election sooner rather than later may end up being a huge blow for the red shirt movement. If things stay as they were last election, they will lose. If things have got worse since then, which i suspect they have, then they may not even get as far as they are now. What then?

Hopefully not more in Ratchaprasong. Incidentally, they used to execute people on this corner.

Maybe we'll see an effigy today, that would be right up there with pigs blood mixed with a little human blood poured around the place.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[animatic]

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

....Oh ho.....yah weng rao na. Hmmm......I think the words you are looking for is in a real democratic society,

no party would dare to ask for votes with a policy to unilaterally change the constitution to the wishes of their largest funding source,

but rather would be looking for ways to develop the constitution in a non partisan manner for the benefit of all Thais....

On the whole another great post from Steve M.

Puts most all this in stark perspective.

Yes can you imagine this as a party platform....

Well seems PTP can and does, speaks volumes about their intentions,

and lack of ethics and inability to think on governance issues.

Any NORMAL political party's members would be aghast to hear

this is being put forward in their names.

Edited April 5, 2010 by animatic

[moo9]

'In a real democratic society, the democrats would enact laws to protect the rights of protesters and demand equal rights for all citizens. Here, the Democrats protect the rights of the rich and keep the poor in their place--servants to the rich! We have yet to see whether the Democrats will resort to violence to protect the pocketbooks of their supporters...however, the handwriting is on the wall!'

What a BS!

There are always rich and poor people even in democratic countries :-)

Social success is mainly based on education and neither Taksin or other governments invested in this.

If this chaos will continue, you will see a big reduction of investments in Thailand and this primarily will hit the "servants to the rich" as you name it. Don't be so stupid to believe in the Red Shirt rhetoric, which sounds like Communist but is in fact closer the Nazi propaganda! I am sick of it, when watching the D Station. It makes me fear!