Archiving

[penzman]

I'm fairly new to archiving files, I've owned a cd burner for a year only.

I've recently lost database backups, whole website archive, vacation pics stored on different brands of cd's. Some were stored on Memorex cd's, others on Primco(junk) cd's. Some folders can be read but others are just impossible to open.

I've noticed some spots on some of the cd's that look like corrosion when you hold them to a light, you can actually see right through it.

I know I could always archive on HDD and server side but I know even that can go wrong. The only thing I can think of now is to make two copies of everything...

Can something be done to a cd to make it scratch resistant?

Can anyone recommend another safer way of archiving?

[lopburi3]

Use high qualify CD's for long term storage and make sure not to put labels on them (glue is known to be bad news for data).

Check CD when you make to be sure data got written.

Keep is good storage conditions if possible.

Making several copies is always a good idea, and keeping them in different locations - the cost is not that much for the amount most people should be concerned about.

Believe on line storage is cheap and an extra hard drive is always a good idea.

This all from someone who rarely backs anything up (have nothing - nothing to lose).

[marquess]

I usually only archive on CDRW's as they tend to be of a better quality. Usually keep a copy here and one in Blighty. Maxwell tend to be quite good.

[Gary A]

I'm fairly new to archiving files, I've owned a cd burner for a year only.

I've recently lost database backups, whole website archive, vacation pics stored on different brands of cd's. Some were stored on Memorex cd's, others on Primco(junk) cd's. Some folders can be read but others are just impossible to open.

I've noticed some spots on some of the cd's that look like corrosion when you hold  them to a light, you can actually see right through it.

I know I could always archive on HDD and server side but I know even that can go wrong. The only thing I can think of now is to make two copies of everything...

Can something be done to a cd to make it scratch resistant?

Can anyone recommend another safer way of archiving?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I also found out the hard way that CD's are NOT the answer. It sounds like you have the same problem I had. A friend of mine looked at mine and told me that it was a fungus that had destroyed them. I bought a 40 gig hard drive and an enclosure that has a separate power supply. It plugs into my USB port for data transfer. The hard drive was 2,450 baht and the enclosure was 1,650 baht. I feel pretty safe with that setup and it is MUCH faster than burning CD's. If you use a laptop hard drive and enclosure it gets its power directly from the USB port. With Windows XP it is plug and play and can be used on any other computer too.

[slimdog]

Like gary A, I use external harddrives for important data. Although for the future I would be keeping an eye on flash memory, these are dropping in price and increasing in storage capacity. Currently up to 1.5 GB at a price of around $80.00 so not very good value for money when compared with cd or dvd disks (at the moment..). I would expect the high storage versions to stay at a similar price for the forseeable future, but the storage capacity to double every 12-18 months.

With no moving parts, no warping, better temperature tolerance, virtually unlimited read/writes they have a life span of approx 75-100 years.

[marquess]

I read an article in the Data section of the Post, saying that the CDRW's had a non organic coating, but the ones that you could only record on once had an orgainic coating.

[waldwolf]

The question of life expectency for CD's has been debated ever since the first one appeared decades ago. I've heard life expectency figures for CD's ranging anywhere from 10 to 300 years.

The following links detail what many believe is the best type of media for CD archiving, GOLD:

The MAM Archive CD-R

MAM Gold Longevity Tests

Additional information links:

Care and Handling of CDs and DVDs

Preservation FAQ's

Measures of CD-R Longevity

(Unfortunately, all magnetic media slowly looses its magnetic properties over time, therefore, tape or hard drive backups slowly decay. Of course, should the earth's magnetic poles reverse themselves again, as has occured numerious times in the past, the loss of data will be immediate. )

cheers

Edited May 29, 2005 by waldwolf

[Abandon]

CDs do not burn magnetically, but by using a laser on a surface that turns opaque when burned. a series of opaque dots represents your data. Rewritable ones can laser the spots back to clear again so new data can be written.

I too have found some old movies I burnt will no longer work. I have a program for reading scratched discs that is quite good. Obviously anything that is ruined is ruined, but several times I have gottne back a lot of data, or a useable movie using this program. It is only 45 KB in size so I can email or skype it to anyone who wants it if you PM me. (don't post your email address on the forum - use the PM function)

It is a freeware program BTW so no liscense issues.

[Gary A]

Had someone told me that a fungus could destroy a CD I would have been VERY skeptical. In fact I might have told them that they had some very bad information. As it has turned out I have lost faith in CD's.

I am also interested in flash memory. I have a Sony camera and a Sony reader/writer for the Memory sticks. I have eight sticks ranging from 16 mb to 128 mb. I do keep a lot of data on the Memory sticks and have lost nothing at all so far. Very fast and handy. I think this is the wave of the future.

[Veazer]

I have horrible luck with optical media in Thailand, even with high quality media brought from home. I can't figure out why. CD-Rs, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD+R etc. They have all been a complete nightmare. I definitely get some kind of 'cd rot' on my discs that looks like some kind of oxidation.

I backup all my data to an external HD, they are fast, fairly cheap and quite reliable. I have tried about 4 different types of external enclosures available in thailand and the "metal box" brand/style has been the most successful for me. Some drive controllers have a tendancy to have "delayed write failure" errors and this can result in data loss. The best enclosure I have found is called "Speedzter" but i have never been able to find them in thailand. They even turn themselves off when you put your pc in standby mode.

If you want 2 gig+ of free online data storage, checkout gmail drive: Gmail Drive Gmail drive has a few limitations that you might find annoying: maximum file size is 10 meg and maximum name, including path, is limited to 40 characters. Gmail drive will convert any spaces in a filename to an underscore. Also, the gmail drive cannot be mapped to a drive letter which makes it difficult to use with most backup programs. Stll, despite these limitations I think you'll appreciate having that much free space available. If you do need to backup files bigger than 10mb, just split them with a file splitter. Even winzip can do this for you.

[Gary A]

According to one Internet report of fungus attacking CD's, it only occurs where it is hot and humid. I suppose if you live in Thailand you could keep your collection in the refrigerator.

[RDN]

...

Can something be done to a cd to make it scratch resistant?

Can anyone recommend another safer way of archiving?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I do (some may say it's a little over the top ):

1. Every time my PC starts, it automatically copies a bunch of folders from my internal (laptop) hard disk to an external USB hard drive:

- it copies: My Documents, Desktop, Start Menu, Firefox Program and Profiles, and Application Data (for emails).

- this is achieved by running a batch file in my startup folder

- these folders get copied into one of a set of folders labelled 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, and 512. This means I can maintain a copy from yesterday, 2 days ago, 4 days ago ...512 days ago.

2. I keep floppy copies of some very important files, the most important being an Excel spreadsheet with all my financial details, bank statements etc. in it.

3. Before I change anything major on the PC, I create a Norton Ghost image of the C drive on CDs and restore the image to a second, identical C drive that I bought with the laptop. I then use that drive to make the changes on. If there are any problems, I can install the other drive and start again.

4. I occasionally copy data from the external CD drive to CD, but not that often as I have two copies already of the important stuff - on the laptop internal drive and the external hard drive.

I've never had any growth on my CDs. They have all maintained their readability once they have been written to correctly (I always do a binary compare of what is written to the CD with the original source using a utility call "Beyond Compare". If a Ghost Image CD set, I always do the "image integrity check").

The only CDs I have had problems with are CD-RWs, which are only "RW" for about 3 or 4 goes if your lucky! I use Princo CDs, and have a failure rate of about 1 in 10.

[slimdog]

If you are going to use cdr's for storing data; here is a bit of (probably useless) information..

The major two components in a cdr are:

A Reflective coating

An organic dye

Basically, by heating the dye it changes the reflective properties.

The two reflective coatings used are

Silver

Gold

Silver has a better reflective property than gold.

Silver is cheaper than gold

Silver gets damaged by the ink easier than the gold

There are 4 main types of dyes

Cyanine

Pthalocyanine

Azo

Formazan

Each of these dyes is translucent, and appears different depending on whether the reflective layer is Silver or Gold

Generally, the best dye for Thailand is Pthalocyanine due to it's properties with damp/humidity, and for long lasting, gold is better than silver. Thankfully only pthalocyanine looks gold when used with a gold reflective layer, the other dyes look shades of green or blue. So if you turn a disc upside down and it looks gold then it is probably (possibly) the best one for long term data storage.

[Abandon]

good info slim

[Firefoxx]

I have had quite a different experience with CD-R backups. I've been writing CD-Rs since the days when the write speed was 2x (maximum) and there were only SCSI writers (no IDE). I still have those discs with me, and they're still 100% readable.

I tend to use "made in Japan" discs, since they're of higher quality, coming mostly from the "Taiyo Yuden" factories in Japan. However, these are pretty hard to find here and tend to be a lot more expensive (3-5x) than princos and the lot. I do have some old backups on princos and maxells, and they're still going strong. I avoid "made in singapore" discs like the plague. "made in Taiwan" discs have gotten better, but quality may vary from batch to batch.

However, people who've received discs from me have had problems with the discs, such as fungus and the reflective material peeling off. My guess is that they don't handle and store the discs properly, since I've seen that they don't take any care when picking up or storing the discs. All my discs are stored in either jewel cases or CD folders, and I take the necessary precautions (not touching the surface, etc) when handling them. So, even for the 10 year old discs, there's hardly a scratch to be seen.

For CDRWs, my experiences have varied from bad to awful, with good and bad brands. I hate the things with a passion. I never use them. I see no use for them, with CDRs going for <10 baht.

Ever since I got my Pioneer DVD writer, I've switched almost exclusively to DVD media (both + and -) for backups. Superior capacity, better speed, and great price. No problems so far.

No medium is totally reliable (even carving on stone... stone erodes), and most depend on how you use them. If your data's truly important, use RAID to protect the online copy and use your preferred media for a weekly offline copy (reliability doesn't matter much since you've got it updated so often).

[RDN]

I have had quite a different experience with CD-R backups.  I've been writing CD-Rs since the days when the write speed was 2x (maximum) and there were only SCSI writers (no IDE).  I still have those discs with me, and they're still 100% readable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same here: once written OK, they stay OK. I tend to write at 4x or 2x thinking that the chances of getting errors are less. Don't know how true that is.

... All my discs are stored in either jewel cases or CD folders, and I take the necessary precautions (not touching the surface, etc) when handling them.  So, even for the 10 year old discs, there's hardly a scratch to be seen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely - I treat mine as if they were vinyl records - only touch the edge and store in the original spindle cases or CD folders.

For CDRWs, my experiences have varied from bad to awful, with good and bad brands.  I hate the things with a passion.  I never use them.  I see no use for them, with CDRs going for <10 baht.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My thinking, too. Hate CD-RWs - not worth the trouble. If a CD-R fails, throw it away, take out another one. It's a pain if it's the last one in an image set of 6 and you have to start again , but that's life!

I read that Matsui Gold are considered one of the best. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[waldwolf]

......I read that Matsui Gold are considered one of the best. Anyone have thoughts on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Mitsui CD's are the "MAM"'s detailed in my earlier post. Have not personally tried them, but various reports I have read rate them very highly.

As with most items one needs/wants to "archive", heat, moisture and sunlight are probably the three major factors effecting useful life. I suppose one could burn "gold" CD's, place them in a nitrogen filled, vaccum sealed, stainless steel or glass container. But with the speed technology moves, data storage methods will undoubtly improve with the passage of time.

The next data storage breakthrough may well be biological .

cheers

[xyz]

I use both external HD and flash memory for backing up data. Like you, I had problems w/ CDR, RW. USB flash memory drives are very small and handy; but they're currently limited in their capacity to few giga-bytes and costly, about 4000 B/ gigabyte. With a flash memory card reader, you can use the same flash memory card for backups that you use for cameras & MP3 players. Flash memory has been really getting cheaper with bigger storage capacity, so I think more people will be using it for backups.

[JimGant]

This may be obvious -- and why it hasn't been mentioned -- but make sure you use a "CD-R marker" pen to write on your CDs. Other indelible inks can ruin your CDs. I know Carre Four sells 'em, as probably do many other stores here.

As for speed, I'm with RDN: I crank down from the max speed my software (Nero) allows, but only about half way down. Haven't the foggiest if this helps give a better record, but it feels good. Any and all expert advice about this appreciated.

[meadish_sweetball]

Just my personal findings:

I have found that with Nero and my CD burner equipment LITEON external CD writer/DVD combo, a lower write speed most definitely helps. I copied a large number of CD's for a friend recently, and clearly saw the accuracy of the 4x write sessions were much better.

I had more luck with writing at top speed when my equipment was brand new.

[RDN]

......I read that Matsui Gold are considered one of the best. Anyone have thoughts on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Mitsui CD's are the "MAM"'s detailed in my earlier post. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, Waldwolf, I very lazily did not follow all your links . I see there is a "Mitsui" in the bottom right of the picture of the jewel case, so now I know how to spell it too .

Any ideas how much they cost? - they look a damm site more expensive than my Princo's (300 baht for 50)!

[waldwolf]

........Any ideas how much they cost? - they look a damm site more expensive  than my Princo's (300 baht for 50)!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have seen prices ranging from $2 to $10 (US) per disk, depending upon quantity purchased.

Any "coasters" from this brand will definately put a dent in your pocketbook.

cheers

[RDN]

........Any ideas how much they cost? - they look a damm site more expensive  than my Princo's (300 baht for 50)!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have seen prices ranging from $2 to $10 (US) per disk, depending upon quantity purchased.

Any "coasters" from this brand will definately put a dent in your pocketbook.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

80 baht each!! Up to 400! Wow, they ought to be good at that price. Makes my 6 baht Princos look a real bargain . Mind you, I have amassed about 40 "coasters" over the last 2 or 3 years .

And I presume you mean "coffee cup coasters" or such like. I thought it was only me who used them for that. When I worked in England I started using them as coasters for my coffee mug instead of the company-issued mats. People thought I was crazy, then they started asking me for some for themselves. Of course, in Thailand they are also used as reflectors and decorations on pick-ups and big trucks. The way they reflect sunlight and head-lights is very pretty. Perhaps we should start a new thread... "1001 Uses For Dud CDs"

[spog]

I have had quite a different experience with CD-R backups.  I've been writing CD-Rs since the days when the write speed was 2x (maximum) and there were only SCSI writers (no IDE).  I still have those discs with me, and they're still 100% readable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same here: once written OK, they stay OK. I tend to write at 4x or 2x thinking that the chances of getting errors are less. Don't know how true that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I remember reading somewhere that slowing down the speed can actually lower the quality of the burn.

I think it was because the hardware is optimised for the fastest write speed and running at a lower speed is less efficient and so more errors are introduced. Of course, given the wide range of hardware out there, your mileage may vary.

I always burn two copies of everything important on CD and store them in two locations. If I ever lose one disc, or it gets scratched, then I use the 'archive disc' to create a new 'general disc'. With the cheap cost of media, it's not expensive and pretty much guarantees integrity.

I don't recommend a hard disc as your only form of backup. They can and do fail - granted, it's less common, but not unheard of. It's also easier to retreive data from a scratched CD than it is from a dead hard drive. Flash memory is less reliable than HDs and more suspectible to damage.

[h90]

Before in the Playstation copy scene, where you needed perfect quality copies for some models to be able to read them, people test a lot with burning speed.

Result: maximum speed: not good quality, but if you burn very slow the quality is also not very good. So it was always a good idea to burn at 1/2-2/3 of max.

But this info is old, not sure if it is still valid for the new devices.

I have had quite a different experience with CD-R backups.  I've been writing CD-Rs since the days when the write speed was 2x (maximum) and there were only SCSI writers (no IDE).  I still have those discs with me, and they're still 100% readable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same here: once written OK, they stay OK. I tend to write at 4x or 2x thinking that the chances of getting errors are less. Don't know how true that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I remember reading somewhere that slowing down the speed can actually lower the quality of the burn.

I think it was because the hardware is optimised for the fastest write speed and running at a lower speed is less efficient and so more errors are introduced. Of course, given the wide range of hardware out there, your mileage may vary.

I always burn two copies of everything important on CD and store them in two locations. If I ever lose one disc, or it gets scratched, then I use the 'archive disc' to create a new 'general disc'. With the cheap cost of media, it's not expensive and pretty much guarantees integrity.

I don't recommend a hard disc as your only form of backup. They can and do fail - granted, it's less common, but not unheard of. It's also easier to retreive data from a scratched CD than it is from a dead hard drive. Flash memory is less reliable than HDs and more suspectible to damage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Crossy]

OK, lots of advice here and on the web much of it contradictory and some just plain wrong.

This is what I do, I've found that this works for me, as with all these things, YMMV.

I have 3 (three) external hard disks (actually they fit in the media bay of my Dell laptop). Each week I do a full drive image to one of these using a different drive each week and overwriting the oldest backup, these drives live in two locations (office and home).

Every day I dump all my project files onto a USB pen drive, this travels home in my pocket just in case the PC goes walkabout.

For long term storage I use archival quality (read expensive) CD-R's, again 3 copies, on different brands stored in different cool, dry locations.

My final backup for my digital photographs (hobby not profession) is to make silver-halide 10x8 prints of my 'keepers' and put them in an album, I can scan them if I lose everything.

Like I said, this works for me, it's not too much trouble to maintain and provides a realistic degree of data security. The secret is to have multiple copies on different media stored in multiple locations.

Edited May 31, 2005 by Crossy

[JimGant]

it's not too much trouble to maintain

Could you give us an example of 'too much trouble to maintain?'

[chanchao]

" Here's what I do ... " (I can just picture all of you at the edge of your seat, holding your breath in suspense.

CD-R brands/types:

Carrefour has great prices on Sony discs; the ones that are just shrink-wrapped in plastic, you don't even get the cylindrical plastic spindle-box with it. But they're cheap! Price difference with Carrefour's owy cheapo " (1) " home brand is negligible.. (THough have used that one in the past and it isn't half bad either; better than Princo it seems, though my test sample was too limited to say for sure. Also they mis-spelled 'Recordable' on the (1) brand. :-))) Somehow gives me less confidence than Sony.

In my opinion: If it's worth 1-5 minutes of my time to burn, then it's worth spending the 3-4 baht extra on a Sony disc. (For DVDs I also use Sony, though TDK are excellent too, perhaps better)

Recording & storage:

* Indeed I go for the middle-speeds. I mostly burn 16x or 24x.

* I bet some kind of air-tight shrink-wrap for CD's for long term storage would be good.. And write on the outside plastic, not the disk itself. (I don't do this though as I don't use CD's as a main backup medium)

Backup:

Nothing beats a harddisk in storage space, longevity and speed. Take care to have several backups in different locations.

Tip: Run TrueCrypt (Free, Google for it) as a virtual encrypted drive, and create a disc that's slightly smaller than the capacity of the CD or DVD you burn. (Say 650 MB or 4.3 Gb) Then when you wan tot make a backup, just unmount the disk (becomes an encrypted 650 MB file) which you can eaisly burn to CD. This way you add some security to your backups.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[kreon]

i back-up everyday on-line with iBack, i think it cost me $20/m for 10gb, which i can access anywhere on-line.

also have a couple of 1gb usb memory sticks for personal data, could not be bothered with burning cd's.

[joka]

i wonder if this cd rot could be oxidation, especially if you are in a marine climate.