Bangkok Residents Become Hostages To Red-Shirt Anarchy

[lannarebirth]

More like every day Thaksin foments civil war and anarchy Thailand's rift grows deeper. If Thaksin has just retired peacefully when the time came, we wouldn't have any of these problems with red criminal riots.

He wasn't allowed to retire peacefully he was overthrown by a Military Coup which is why Thailand is in the mess it's in now.

He was given the chance to resign... he protested his innocence a bit too loudly and for too long.

[siampolee]

THE NATION: Weng on the Reds raid Parliament "It is Arisman's own act and decision without consent of other leaders."

Now the truth is emerging the leadership is indeed fractured and the vicious extremist are even incurring the wrath of the co leaders of this movement.

As has been said if there were any principles involved with Veraa, Jatuporn and Weng they would turn the renegade Arisman in to the authorities.

Let's See if they are actually willing or able to act in a correct matter and prove their integrity.

Mein Gott I am seeing flying pigs !!

[Neurath]

Banharn rarely, if ever, backs dead horse in any race.

Rarely, true. But he backed himself in 96.

[anotherpeter]

Every time you post you put forward the same banal arguement. You then reply to people who agree with you but ignore the people who have proved you wrong.

<snip>

Sorry I don't get to read every reply to my posts. Please point me to any that have proven me wrong that I haven't replied to and I will correct that.

[ThailanderPaul]

THE NATION: Banharn: "govt and reds must take one step back each."

Hasn't the military & police taken many steps back only to see things like them getting locked in Lumpini Park? Has the PM said he would call elections a year early? The next stap back would be to hand the keys of the city to these law breakers.

[snorkelador]

"A Huge section" ... you could say that 100% of Thais didn't get the government they wanted.

40% wanted the PPP. 35% wanted the Democrats. The rest didn't want either. (+/- a couple of %)

At the moment, a huge section of section of the Thai people have the government they want.

Certainly, a MAJORITY of the elected MPs (who represent the people) have the government they want.

And a MINORITY of the MPs (ie a minority of the representatives of the people) do not have the government they want.

Every time you post you put forward the same banal arguement. You then reply to people who agree with you but ignore the people who have proved you wrong.

The majority of electors voted against the Democrats. The Military/Elite then bought Newin Chidbob and the forty Phue Thai MPs friends of Newin. Do you really believe that in any democracy around the world that the people who voted for those forty Phue Thai MPs would not be considered to have genuine grounds for complaint. Also please adjust your percentages to take into account the millions of Phue Thai votes that those forty MPs represented.

Now please don't come back with your usual silly request and ask for proof that Newin and his friends were bought and Abhisit was installed because it is common knowledge. In any case why are you still bothering as your hero, (who now lives in one of four luxurious villas that were built by the Coup generals on an army base) is most probably about to depart. What will be his place in history? The do-nothing PM who, whether he goes or not, will still have to answer for the huge corruption charges against his coalition government.

A majority of electors also voted against the PPP. Those numbers are from the election, not from after when MPs changed allegiance.

Were the 40 MPs actually Peau Thai MPs? Weren't Peau Thai created just prior to the PPP disbanding for the ex-PPP MPs to go to? Actually, I was wondering whether you could point me to somewhere I can find out more about these MPs.

In any case, they represent their electorate, and they decided for whatever reason that they didn't want to support the new Thaksin puppet party. There is no law against changing support, and it doesn't require an election if it happens.

Had all the smaller parties done what they had promised before the elections, namely not supporting PPP, then there should have been a coalition lead by the Dems from the start. It was only because of those parties breaking their promise and supporting PPP, that they could form a majority. Actually in light of that, it would be more correct to say that the majority voted against PPP and got them in as the biggest Party in the government anyway. It is legal, but in my view not really 100% ethical - well there you have your definition of the word politics!

[anotherpeter]

Banharn rarely, if ever, backs dead horse in any race.

Rarely, true. But he backed himself in 96.

Looks like Banharn is still backing the government.

[Neurath]

Banharn rarely, if ever, backs dead horse in any race.

Rarely, true. But he backed himself in 96.

Looks like Banharn is still backing the government.

Yep, seems Thanong was wrong.

[lannarebirth]

Banharn rarely, if ever, backs dead horse in any race.

Rarely, true. But he backed himself in 96.

Looks like Banharn is still backing the government.

Yep, seems Thanong was wrong.

He's wrong a lot, but he does some interesting "what ifs" I might never have considered.

[termad]

If only the red shirts could see the real truth

They are now collective and strong and no longer need Taskin

all they need is some good thinkers and now is time for THAT Change

I think that your missing the main point of all of this. Not all Red Shirts want Talksin Shinawatra as Prime Minister and I think that he is enough of a realist to not want the premiership himself. Revenge yes, his right to live in Thailand yes, the money seizure, well that depends on the Appeal Court.

If you talk to the Red Shirts yes, the majority of the demonstrators are dirt poor farmers (poverty stricken in many cases) but many of them are young smart and well educated and they are the ones the Red Shirt leaders listen to - not Phue Thai.

The other point to bear in mind is that those young leaders are young firebrands and idealists. It's very hard to control young firebrands and idealists are very very hard to bribe. So I think that in the coming years the old Poo Yai of Phue Thai will be looking over their shoulders from day one and it's those young leaders, who have the grassroots support, who'll take over.

There are a number of groups in the Red Shirts, they even have a branch of the old Thai comunist party, but I suspect that they are slowly coalescing into a broadly based Social Democrat party along the lines of the U.K.'s Labour Party.

If the Red Shirts have won, the writings on the wall for the generals who stage Coups when they want to (because the people have called their bluff and won) and also the writings on the wall for the Amataya who control the Civil Service, Higher Offices and put pressure on the Courts. Because most likely there's going to be a land tribunal with the possibilty of Assets Examination of all Senior Civil Servants.

So this whole business may have brought about huge overdue changes for Thailand.

[TheOldWolf]

THE NATION: Weng on the Reds raid Parliament "It is Arisman's own act and decision without consent of other leaders."

Now the truth is emerging the leadership is indeed fractured and the vicious extremist are even incurring the wrath of the co leaders of this movement.

As has been said if there were any principles involved with Veraa, Jatuporn and Weng they would turn the renegade Arisman in to the authorities.

Let's See if they are actually willing or able to act in a correct matter and prove their integrity.

Mein Gott I am seeing flying pigs !!

Hasn´t Veera been very qiut lately?

[Thai at Heart]

If the Red Shirts have won, the writings on the wall for the generals who stage Coups when they want to (because the people have called their bluff and won) and also the writings on the wall for the Amataya who control the Civil Service, Higher Offices and put pressure on the Courts. Because most likely there's going to be a land tribunal with the possibilty of Assets Examination of all Senior Civil Servants.

So this whole business may have brought about huge overdue changes for Thailand.

It would be interesting to see how much wealth Sir Humphrey has accumulated over the years. That said, it would be interesting to see if they could see how much the army and the police have too.

If this movement can achieve this if nothing else it would be an astonishing feat.

That's why I can't ever see it being allowed to happen.

[rixalex]

If you talk to the Red Shirts yes, the majority of the demonstrators are dirt poor farmers (poverty stricken in many cases) but many of them are young smart and well educated and they are the ones the Red Shirt leaders listen to - not Phue Thai.

Red shirt leaders, like their friends at Phue Thai, listen to one man.

[Old Man River]

He's wrong a lot, but he does some interesting "what ifs" I might never have considered.

I agree. Thanong is extremely hard headed to talk to, but he always bases his opinions on fact (or what he perceives to be fact). I don't always agree with his conclusions, but they are always interesting and different.

[Neurath]

If only the red shirts could see the real truth

They are now collective and strong and no longer need Taskin

all they need is some good thinkers and now is time for THAT Change

I think that your missing the main point of all of this. Not all Red Shirts want Talksin Shinawatra as Prime Minister and I think that he is enough of a realist to not want the premiership himself. Revenge yes, his right to live in Thailand yes, the money seizure, well that depends on the Appeal Court.

If you talk to the Red Shirts yes, the majority of the demonstrators are dirt poor farmers (poverty stricken in many cases) but many of them are young smart and well educated and they are the ones the Red Shirt leaders listen to - not Phue Thai.

The other point to bear in mind is that those young leaders are young firebrands and idealists. It's very hard to control young firebrands and idealists are very very hard to bribe. So I think that in the coming years the old Poo Yai of Phue Thai will be looking over their shoulders from day one and it's those young leaders, who have the grassroots support, who'll take over.

There are a number of groups in the Red Shirts, they even have a branch of the old Thai comunist party, but I suspect that they are slowly coalescing into a broadly based Social Democrat party along the lines of the U.K.'s Labour Party.

If the Red Shirts have won, the writings on the wall for the generals who stage Coups when they want to (because the people have called their bluff and won) and also the writings on the wall for the Amataya who control the Civil Service, Higher Offices and put pressure on the Courts. Because most likely there's going to be a land tribunal with the possibilty of Assets Examination of all Senior Civil Servants.

So this whole business may have brought about huge overdue changes for Thailand.

"If you talk to the Red Shirts yes, the majority of the demonstrators are dirt poor farmers (poverty stricken in many cases) but many of them are young smart and well educated and they are the ones the Red Shirt leaders listen to - not Phue Thai."

Jutuporn is a Red Shirt leader and he IS Phue Thai and they certainly are listening to him. Not sure where you're trying to go with the statement above.

[Neurath]

He's wrong a lot, but he does some interesting "what ifs" I might never have considered.

I agree. Thanong is extremely hard headed to talk to, but he always bases his opinions on fact (or what he perceives to be fact). I don't always agree with his conclusions, but they are always interesting and different.

Thanong stated that Anupong had given an ultimatum to Abhisit and Suthep. If that was a fact then .......

[bangon04]

THE NATION: Weng on the Reds raid Parliament "It is Arisman's own act and decision without consent of other leaders."

So let's see some good faith and good citizenship by the other Red Shirt leaders. Turn him over to authorities for arrest. Yeah, when Bangkok freezes over..

Thailand has easily become the HUB of unenforced arrest warrants. Why not issue some more, and get some more court orders to go with them.

The Royal Thai Police are already a laughing stock, even if someone gets turned over to them, they would probably find a way to screw up.

So issuing endless warrants for arresting the same people again and again, is just as hollow as Jatuporn bellowing threats of armageddon from the stage at every opportunity, exaggerating crowd numbers, false accusations etc etc etc.

The (only) good thing about this farce is that real violence gets postponed until hopefully everyone gets bored.

It has all the dramatic quality of professional wrestling...

Edited April 7, 2010 by bangon04

[humfurry]

More like every day Thaksin foments civil war and anarchy Thailand's rift grows deeper. If Thaksin has just retired peacefully when the time came, we wouldn't have any of these problems with red criminal riots.

He wasn't allowed to retire peacefully he was overthrown by a Military Coup which is why Thailand is in the mess it's in now.

He was given the chance to resign... he protested his innocence a bit too loudly and for too long.

Now how was he deposed in a coup is he quit? He quit nothing and still hasn't. lol

[10027586]

I wish Thaksin would quit breathing.

[chadintheusa]

If the civil government is unwilling to enforce the laws we'd be better off having the military back in power.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Another "totally unbiased" story from The Nation.

QUOTE(from article):"Business operators in the affected areas have truly experienced the horror of mob rule."

A loaded statement if there ever was. I was in Big C - opposite Central World Plaza - on Saturday - and yes there were Red-Shirts inside. Some were taking advantage of the air-conditioning and sheltering from the blistering heat on the ground floor - many others were up on the fourth floor eating - others were browsing and shopping on other floors. Business as usual. Everything was civil and orderly.

Yes folks - this truly was the "horror of mob rule."

At the weekend virtually all the big stores in the area were closed. Why?

I get a feeling that the closure of these stores isn't just about security - although they do - of course - have every right to close to the public whenever they want for whatever reason - BUT it also has the effect of being a deliberate - politically motivated move aimed to discredit the Red-Shirt movement in general.

Designed to reinforce the idea to the general public that these ordinary - decent citizens - are an out of control bunch of criminals intent upon criminal activity - which just isn't the case.

I rest my case.

Couldn't agree more.

And the other thing is the information blackout now being applied. This morning on Channel 11 a commentator admitted, when asked about the number of Red Shirts demonstrators there were at the demonstration, that he was not allowed to say! Yesterday in the Radio Thailand lunchtime News it was reported that International News i.e. the BBC and CNN had reported clashes between the demonstrators and Security Services. There was no Radio Thailand report.

In the other newspaper they are saying that Abhisit is the one who is pushing for the use of force but the Army is refusing - I think because the numbers of Red Shirts are just too great to take on especially as the Military are not sure of the loyalty of all their troops.

Abhisit is saying that he has to stay in power for at least a year in order to put through important legislation - that includes the amendments to the 2007 (Military) Constitution. Phue Thai and the Red Shirts want to scrap the Miltary imposed Constitution and bring back the 1997 (Peoples) Constitution. If Abhisit managed to get all his controversial legislation passed and he loses the next election (which most people believe he will) the next government will change the legislation he will have pushed through and then you will have the Yellow Shirts back on the streets protesting.

Why can't Abhisit just say that Parliament will be dissolved in 6 months and not pass any further legislation? If all political parties then produced a Manifesto and Abhisit invited International Observers from all EU countries, Australia, New Zealand, the USA, Canada plus International TV crews and in fact flooded the country with observers it would be hard for any group to claim once more that the election was bought.

As it stands he's going to divide this country to the extent that the rift will be irreparable.

Absolutely! declare the date when people will have the chance to vote - problem, if not over, diminished

[Neurath]

THE NATION: Weng on the Reds raid Parliament "It is Arisman's own act and decision without consent of other leaders."

So let's see some good faith and good citizenship by the other Red Shirt leaders. Turn him over to authorities for arrest. Yeah, when Bangkok freezes over..

Thailand has easily become the HUB of unenforced arrest warrants. Why not issue some more, and get some more court orders to go with them.

The Royal Thai Police are already a laughing stock, even if someone gets turned over to them, they would probably find a way to screw up.

So issuing endless warrants for arresting the same people again and again, is just as hollow as Jatuporn bellowing threats of armageddon from the stage at every opportunity, exaggerating crowd numbers, false accusations etc etc etc.

The (only) good thing about this farce is that real violence gets postponed until hopefully everyone gets bored.

It has all the dramatic quality of professional wrestling...

That's a bit unfair, the powers that be did come out shooting in 73, 76 and 92.

[Tod Daniels]

Sadly I am not crafty enough to parse quotes and insert my witty answers (which actually contain facts btw )

So the below is a quote by the illustrious poser <sic> (that means purposely misspelled!!) termad with my answers in all bold. It's the best I could do. Sorry again. ..

A huge section of the Thai people believe that Abhisit is a stooge of the Elite and the Military. They also believe that they have been cheated out of the Government that they want. You can believe that is true or not - it doesn't matter because you are not Thai.

And by some wild stretch of the imagination are you thai?

If so your profile sure doesn't show it;

termad

Senior Member

Age: Unknown years old

Male

Birthday: Unknown

Interests; Local beers, Local food and local pleasures

Location: Bangkok

So why are you opposed to an election supervised/monitored by International Observers? I know why Abhisit is. It's because he knows that he would lose which in itself proves that he doesn't have the mandate of the people.

News flash; Thaksin was also opposed to international oversight for elections as it was "interfering with thai sovereignty"

A Huge section" ... you could say that 100% of Thais didn't get the government they wanted.

Another News Flash; NO ONE gets the government they want in ANY election, hence the use of coalitions to garner a majority in thai government

Every time you post you put forward the same banal arguement.

(Actually that word is sa-pelled like this “argument”, although you got banal right )

The majority of electors voted against the Democrats. The Military/Elite then bought Newin Chidbob and the forty Phue Thai MPs friends of Newin. Do you really believe that in any democracy around the world that the people who voted for those forty Phue Thai MPs would not be considered to have genuine grounds for complaint? Also please adjust your percentages to take into account the millions of Phue Thai votes that those forty MPs represented.

Not to pick nits but ... in engrish transcription it is sa-pelled either Puea or Phuea (as in the thai word FOR ), but then you being thai would know that wouldn’t you?

Again you fall short on something called FACTZ; The people vote for an MP who will vote FOR them in the government, electing a prime minister and enacting legislation during their term. That an MP changes affiliations can be seen in reality as ‘the people’ changing too; last time I checked the MP’S WERE elected BY the people to represent their best interests. Obviously the MP’s thought their constituencies would be better served by jumping ship, (but you being thai would know the truth better I guess). As has been pointed out, even the red carded and/or banned MP's constituents got to vote again in by-elections.

Newin and his friends were bought and Abhisit was installed because it is common knowledge.

Man you must have BIG "crystal balls" or be way more "in the know" than most thais to spout unsupported rhetoric like you do. Oh that all of us were so 'in the know' as you profess to be

[kissdani]

The army have said they have no reason to use force, and rumours that they may withdraw support for Mark.

any PM who issues an order and it is dis-obeyed by Army/Police is not longer a functioning PM - some posters don't like it but answer is elections

The answer will be a reform. New politics instead of an unstable parliament!

[10027586]

Looks like we have a state of emergency, curfew imposed, etc.

[Neurath]

"A Huge section" ... you could say that 100% of Thais didn't get the government they wanted.

40% wanted the PPP. 35% wanted the Democrats. The rest didn't want either. (+/- a couple of %)

At the moment, a huge section of section of the Thai people have the government they want.

Certainly, a MAJORITY of the elected MPs (who represent the people) have the government they want.

And a MINORITY of the MPs (ie a minority of the representatives of the people) do not have the government they want.

Every time you post you put forward the same banal arguement. You then reply to people who agree with you but ignore the people who have proved you wrong.

The majority of electors voted against the Democrats. The Military/Elite then bought Newin Chidbob and the forty Phue Thai MPs friends of Newin. Do you really believe that in any democracy around the world that the people who voted for those forty Phue Thai MPs would not be considered to have genuine grounds for complaint. Also please adjust your percentages to take into account the millions of Phue Thai votes that those forty MPs represented.

Now please don't come back with your usual silly request and ask for proof that Newin and his friends were bought and Abhisit was installed because it is common knowledge. In any case why are you still bothering as your hero, (who now lives in one of four luxurious villas that were built by the Coup generals on an army base) is most probably about to depart. What will be his place in history? The do-nothing PM who, whether he goes or not, will still have to answer for the huge corruption charges against his coalition government.

A majority of electors also voted against the PPP. Those numbers are from the election, not from after when MPs changed allegiance.

Were the 40 MPs actually Peau Thai MPs? Weren't Peau Thai created just prior to the PPP disbanding for the ex-PPP MPs to go to? Actually, I was wondering whether you could point me to somewhere I can find out more about these MPs.

In any case, they represent their electorate, and they decided for whatever reason that they didn't want to support the new Thaksin puppet party. There is no law against changing support, and it doesn't require an election if it happens.

Had all the smaller parties done what they had promised before the elections, namely not supporting PPP, then there should have been a coalition lead by the Dems from the start. It was only because of those parties breaking their promise and supporting PPP, that they could form a majority. Actually in light of that, it would be more correct to say that the majority voted against PPP and got them in as the biggest Party in the government anyway. It is legal, but in my view not really 100% ethical - well there you have your definition of the word politics!

The reason that the Government is led by the Democrats rather than PT is that the smaller parties swapped their allegiance. Why don't the Reds demonize them? Because they know that they will need them after the next election should they want to form a government and they don't want to s it in their own nest.

[kissdani]

According to news reports a few moments ago, the military is switching sides.

Just out of interest what is the source. Not saying not true but would like to follow up on this.

Cheers, Rick

Red TV Rick?

There are traitors in the ranks of the military and the Capo. Secret material material was leaked and given to the red shirts.

[britmaveric]

New Politics = Old Politics..... same same!!!!

[termad]

Sadly I am not crafty enough to parse quotes and insert my witty answers (which actually contain facts btw )

So the below is a quote by the illustrious poser <sic> (that means purposely misspelled!!) termad with my answers in all bold. It's the best I could do. Sorry again. ..

A huge section of the Thai people believe that Abhisit is a stooge of the Elite and the Military. They also believe that they have been cheated out of the Government that they want. You can believe that is true or not - it doesn't matter because you are not Thai.

And by some wild stretch of the imagination are you thai?

If so your profile sure doesn't show it;

termad

Senior Member

Age: Unknown years old

Male

Birthday: Unknown

Interests; Local beers, Local food and local pleasures

Location: Bangkok

So why are you opposed to an election supervised/monitored by International Observers? I know why Abhisit is. It's because he knows that he would lose which in itself proves that he doesn't have the mandate of the people.

News flash; Thaksin was also opposed to international oversight for elections as it was "interfering with thai sovereignty"

A Huge section" ... you could say that 100% of Thais didn't get the government they wanted.

Another News Flash; NO ONE gets the government they want in ANY election, hence the use of coalitions to garner a majority in thai government

Every time you post you put forward the same banal arguement.

(Actually that word is sa-pelled like this “argument”, although you got banal right )

The majority of electors voted against the Democrats. The Military/Elite then bought Newin Chidbob and the forty Phue Thai MPs friends of Newin. Do you really believe that in any democracy around the world that the people who voted for those forty Phue Thai MPs would not be considered to have genuine grounds for complaint? Also please adjust your percentages to take into account the millions of Phue Thai votes that those forty MPs represented.

Not to pick nits but ... in engrish transcription it is sa-pelled either Puea or Phuea (as in the thai word FOR ), but then you being thai would know that wouldn’t you?

Again you fall short on something called FACTZ; The people vote for an MP who will vote FOR them in the government, electing a prime minister and enacting legislation during their term. That an MP changes affiliations can be seen in reality as ‘the people’ changing too; last time I checked the MP’S WERE elected BY the people to represent their best interests. Obviously the MP’s thought their constituencies would be better served by jumping ship, (but you being thai would know the truth better I guess). As has been pointed out, even the red carded and/or banned MP's constituents got to vote again in by-elections.

Newin and his friends were bought and Abhisit was installed because it is common knowledge.

Man you must have BIG "crystal balls" or be way more "in the know" than most thais to spout unsupported rhetoric like you do. Oh that all of us were so 'in the know' as you profess to be

I really think that you should not drink or smoke whatever it is that you drink or smoke before you post.

[Jimmu]

Perhaps Tod-D is partaking of something perhaps not! But (termad) still makes more sense than you...