Thai Forces Use Tear Gas, Water Cannon Against Protesters

[sotsira]

Sometimes threats to the security of the nation come from within. So it is perfectly reasonable for the army to assist in protecting its citizens.

A basic rule:

In France, we have the famous "Legion Etrangere". A Legionnaire is NEVER engaged if the conflict is with his Country of Origin.

Same here the soldiers are not to be engaged against their fellow citizen: you have to create special forces for doing that. Mercenaries directly depending from Government and attached to the Police. The result of today is a confirmation that the use of Army against his own fellow ctizens is a big mistake.

The same thing happened last year in April in Bangkok and 2 people died and many injured from gunshot wounds.

[anotherpeter]

Well if the people were to vote the way they did last time I can't see the reds complaining too much can you ? Unless or until the result is changed yet again. That in no way contradicts my belief that this is a legitimate government under parliamentary rules. Legitimate though not elected.

Nowhere did I say Thailand will change for the better were a dissolution to take place, merely that you have to smell the coffee. One question. What then is to happen if the army are to continue to retreat ? You can't say that they won't anymore than I can say they can. So what happens if the confrontation continues and the army decides its not going to fight ?

If everyone votes the same way as last time, and the parties form the same coalition that they currently have, that will mean an elected Democrat government.

So people assuming that an election would lead to a red government needs to explain either:

1) why more people would vote for the reds, or

2) why the parties supporting the Democrats now would change back to supporting the red party.

The last election was very biased.

Held under nigh on "martial law" in places.

PPP candidates followed, watched, videod by the interim coup appointed government.

Army with "education budget" on teaching the rural poor how to vote (or how to not vote PPP ? ).

Everything was done to stop PPP getting a majority, but they still won.

Free and fair elections now..... PTP will win a single party majority and watch the small parties come running back saying sorry and 'please please please we want to join you".

One thing the Democrats have done now and that is to totally alienate themselves from most normal Thai's.

Your very broad statement of "Everything was done ... " is very good propaganda.

Can you please provide some details on what was actually done to stop the PPP from campaigning?

[dobadoy]

My wife says, with contempt, that the security forces are like a water melon - hard on the outside but soft inside.

Several explanation occur why they did not use sufficient (not excessive) force to uphold the law, all of them worrying:

1. They were under order to retreat because they didn't want to be seen to hurt Thai people, despite the fact such people were breaking the law- which means the higher echelons in the police/army (and we know they are not of one mind) are taking decisions rather than obeying the law.

2. They did not have the organisation or the courage to carry out their orders - possible, and if so worrying.What do they think they are being paid for? To sit around at checkpoints and take bribes?

3. They or the people giving them orders are pro-Red/anti-Government - again, worrying, because as in 1., when the security forces decide to act independently according to their own political views rather than being executives of the State (legitimate or not), they fail to be a police force and instead become nothing more than a private gang. This may indeed be the reality. My point is that this is both worrying not just in the short term but in the long term future of Thailand.

[pimay11]

A sad day for democracy. The democrats are in power because some Thai people did vote for them. Their democratic rights have been over ruled by a mob. You may not like the government in power but there is a legitimate way to change them. 50,000 angry reds doesn't make a majority in a country of 60 million.

Agree 100% but now it looks like the PM does not have the will to stop this fiasco. Agreeing to reconnect the PTV was the last nail in the coffin for the Democrats. What a shame to let a few people led by a tyrant so this to Thailand.

[roamer]

Self deleted

Edited April 9, 2010 by roamer

[KireB]

My wife says, with contempt, that the security forces are like a water melon - hard on the outside but soft inside.

Several explanation occur why they did not use sufficient (not excessive) force to uphold the law, all of them worrying:

1. They were under order to retreat because they didn't want to be seen to hurt Thai people, despite the fact such people were breaking the law- which means the higher echelons in the police/army (and we know they are not of one mind) are taking decisions rather than obeying the law.

2. They did not have the organisation or the courage to carry out their orders - possible, and if so worrying.What do they think they are being paid for? To sit around at checkpoints and take bribes?

3. They or the people giving them orders are pro-Red/anti-Government - again, worrying, because as in 1., when the security forces decide to act independently according to their own political views rather than being executives of the State (legitimate or not), they fail to be a police force and instead become nothing more than a private gang. This may indeed be the reality. My point is that this is both worrying not just in the short term but in the long term future of Thailand.

I am afraid that point 3 is spot on. Thailand is on its way to become a failed state without law and order.

[changnaam]

A sad day for democracy. The democrats are in power because some Thai people did vote for them. Their democratic rights have been over ruled by a mob. You may not like the government in power but there is a legitimate way to change them. 50,000 angry reds doesn't make a majority in a country of 60 million.

Agree 100%. I just wish the govt would show some strength now and stop this. I am sure they would gain more friends than enemies.

[britmaveric]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

[dobadoy]

Although I hate everything the red LEADERS stand for, I am of a mind that Abhisit has lost all creditiblity to run the country. He needs to turn this arond today or do as the reds ask and dissolve the House. I doubt any Yellow or even neutral observers will forgive him for this weakness in the next election.

This is mob rule. It would never have happened under Thaksin (he'd have had the jatuporn et al quietly shot in the night).

I wonder what Sonthi and the Yellow Army are planning? Fight or flight? Has Abhisit's failure led the country into exactly what he was trying to avoid, a civil war?

Edited April 9, 2010 by dobadoy

[pimay11]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Thanks for the enlightenment. I did not know Thaksin's nick name was democracy. Learn something every day.

[roamer]

My wife says, with contempt, that the security forces are like a water melon - hard on the outside but soft inside.

Several explanation occur why they did not use sufficient (not excessive) force to uphold the law, all of them worrying:

1. They were under order to retreat because they didn't want to be seen to hurt Thai people, despite the fact such people were breaking the law- which means the higher echelons in the police/army (and we know they are not of one mind) are taking decisions rather than obeying the law.

2. They did not have the organisation or the courage to carry out their orders - possible, and if so worrying.What do they think they are being paid for? To sit around at checkpoints and take bribes?

3. They or the people giving them orders are pro-Red/anti-Government - again, worrying, because as in 1., when the security forces decide to act independently according to their own political views rather than being executives of the State (legitimate or not), they fail to be a police force and instead become nothing more than a private gang. This may indeed be the reality. My point is that this is both worrying not just in the short term but in the long term future of Thailand.

I am afraid that point 3 is spot on. Thailand is on its way to become a failed state without law and order.

Point 3. I was only following orders.....Hmmmm, where have I heard that defense before ?

[way2muchcoffee]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Excellent victory for mob rule, lawlessness, and violence.

[animatic]

Sometimes threats to the security of the nation come from within. So it is perfectly reasonable for the army to assist in protecting its citizens.

A basic rule:

In France, we have the famous "Legion Etrangere". A Legionnaire is NEVER engaged if the conflict is with his Country of Origin.

Same here the soldiers are not to be engaged against their fellow citizen: you have to create special forces for doing that. Mercenaries directly depending from Government and attached to the Police. The result of today is a confirmation that the use of Army against his own fellow ctizens is a big mistake.

The same thing happened last year in April in Bangkok and 2 people died and many injured from gunshot wounds.

Except those two deaths were DinDang residents,

shot from the red lines for not letting a red mob invade their neighborhood.

Nothing to do with the army.

[321niti123]

state of emergency should not be used against the cornerstone of the democratic process - independent mass media.

It is martial law. It is temporary. If this media is used to incite violent insurgency and promote a violent rebellion, it bloody well SHOULD be shut down. The speech from the red leaders became illegal speech. Not all speech is legal, even in the west.

Utter UTTER nonsense - never happens in my country even when you get extreme Muslims saying death to Americans and Europeans - this is absolutely the last thing nthey should have done - muzzle free speach - everyone will see Abhisit as an Army Puppet

Agree with Londonthai 100%.

To jingthing i dont think ptv actually incite violence just broadcast the red protest, broadcasting something that is actually happening is the truth, whether the content of the broadcast is true or according to law is another matter. This situation broadcasted is the truth(by truth i mean the speech actually happens, i dont mean that what the reds are saying is true) and by turning off and opposing idea this shows their true lack of courage, and lack of understanding of democracy.

You have seen tv broadcast a robbery before, that is illegal yet can be broadcasted, and its not like the government tv aren't biased. According to Abhisit, there closing it down because it causes a separation of thais, my answer to that is Thai should be able to choose which side they agree with and the government cannot shove it down their throats. He also said it causes stress to the people that are watching (esp. those disagreeing with the protesters and might cause violence), my answer to that is if they are stressed they could just change channels and they have a right to disagree with the protesters, and if they cause violence its by their own choice and would pay the consequences of it, and btw...should the police be able to handle a bit of fighting, isnt that their job???

I though abhisit was smart, he went to oxford!!!! I guess i was wrong all along, he is just as much of an army puppet as the previous gov't, more hypocritical that the reds, and almost as democratic as the coup of '06!!!

Edited April 9, 2010 by 321niti123

[Sunderland]

Maybe there was another water cannon, but all I saw on the news just now was a big hosepipe being used!

[4223rhodes]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Excellent victory for mob rule, lawlessness, and violence.

To the Thai newbie it may look that way. But those of us who have seen this all before many times know that this is a chess match with carefully calculated moves. If you want to see lawlessness and violence in Thailand, look to the south. Up in Bangkok, it's all a game.

[animatic]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Looks like the police force is powerless and weak.

They didn't follow theirnorders.

And this is NOT standing up for Democracy, this is mob rule.

[animatic]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Excellent victory for mob rule, lawlessness, and violence.

Exactly.

Almost no one wants anyone hurt, but seems the red side will push until some one is.

This isn't democracy in action it is Zealotry inaction.

[LevelHead]

The Yellow have made Thailand the way it is today.

They stole Democracy from the people with a coup in 2006.

They stole Democracy from the people with the courts in 2008.

Now they are getting paid back in kind. It has to runs its course, the Reds must have payback for what the Yellows did, and then things can calm down and proper elections can be held.

Abhisit, be a man, dissolve the House and lets get the score back from 2-0 to 2-1 and then things might settle down.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Although I hate everything the red LEADERS stand for, I am of a mind that Abhisit has lost all creditiblity to run the country. He needs to turn this arond today or do as the reds ask and dissolve the House. I doubt any Yellow or even neutral observers will forgive him for this weakness in the next election.

This is mob rule. It would never have happened under Thaksin (he'd have had the jatuporn et al quietly shot in the night).

I wonder what Sonthi and the Yellow Army are planning? Fight or flight? Has Abhisit's failure led the country into exactly what he was trying to avoid, a civil war?

Yes Abhisit has demonstratd that maybe he is a nice guy but the boots are too large for him

On contrary Jatuporn has demonstrated he has the qualities of a Great Leader.

Now, only one solution giving back the power to People IMMEDIATELY to avoid big disorders.

Dissolution of Parliament and Elections ASAP: No choice.

[KireB]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Excellent victory indeed. Radio Rwanda is back.

[britmaveric]

^would not have happened if the govt didnt cut the signal to a media station. You may not like what they broadcast, but doesnt give you the right to shut them down. Bottom line govt made a mistake and backed themselves into a corner - end result they look stupid.

[way2muchcoffee]

To the Thai newbie it may look that way. But those of us who have seen this all before many times know that this is a chess match with carefully calculated moves. If you want to see lawlessness and violence in Thailand, look to the south. Up in Bangkok, it's all a game.

Ad hominem

Try better next time.

Edited April 9, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[LevelHead]

Excellent victory for free press!!! Kudos to the red shirts for standing up for democracy. Anyways looks like the govt again is shown as weak/powerless!

Excellent victory for mob rule, lawlessness, and violence.

Exactly.

Almost no one wants anyone hurt, but seems the red side will push until some one is.

This isn't democracy in action it is Zealotry inaction.

Animatic in your wisdom and knowledge of things Thai you said that the government would never allow the reds to break into Thaicom.

Any new comments or pearls of wisdom regarding the situation now that the thing you said would not happen has now happened ?

[way2muchcoffee]

^would not have happened if the govt didnt cut the signal to a media station. You may not like what they broadcast, but doesnt give you the right to shut them down. Bottom line govt made a mistake and backed themselves into a corner - end result they look stupid.

I agree they were backed into a corner. It isn't about liking or not liking what they broadcast. It is that what they broadcast was proven lies, inciting people to riot, and making death threats. That is neither legal nor acceptable in every western country. You are mistaken if you believe otherwise.

Edited April 9, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[KireB]

The Yellow have made Thailand the way it is today.

They stole Democracy from the people with a coup in 2006.

They stole Democracy from the people with the courts in 2008.

Now they are getting paid back in kind. It has to runs its course, the Reds must have payback for what the Yellows did, and then things can calm down and proper elections can be held.

Abhisit, be a man, dissolve the House and lets get the score back from 2-0 to 2-1 and then things might settle down.

No way there's gonna be proper elections. Imagine the Democrats would win? You think the reds would accept such an outcome. I dont think so.

The Yellows didnt steal democracy with a coup. The Yellows protested against the ubercriminal called Thaksin. And with succes.

[animatic]

state of emergency should not be used against the cornerstone of the democratic process - independent mass media.

It is martial law. It is temporary. If this media is used to incite violent insurgency and promote a violent rebellion, it bloody well SHOULD be shut down. The speech from the red leaders became illegal speech. Not all speech is legal, even in the west.

Utter UTTER nonsense - never happens in my country even when you get extreme Muslims saying death to Americans and Europeans - this is absolutely the last thing nthey should have done - muzzle free speach - everyone will see Abhisit as an Army Puppet

Agree with Londonthai 100%.

To jingthing i dont think ptv actually incite violence just broadcast the red protest, broadcasting something that is actually happening is the truth, whether the content of the broadcast is true or according to law is another matter. This situation broadcasted is the truth(by truth i mean the speech actually happens, i dont mean that what the reds are saying is true) and by turning off and opposing idea this shows their true lack of courage, and lack of understanding of democracy.

You have seen tv broadcast a robbery before, that is illegal yet can be broadcasted, and its not like the government tv aren't biased. According to Abhisit, there closing it down because it causes a separation of thais, my answer to that is Thai should be able to choose which side they agree with and the government cannot shove it down their throats. He also said it causes stress to the people that are watching (esp. those disagreeing with the protesters and might cause violence), my answer to that is if they are stressed they could just change channels and they have a right to disagree with the protesters, and if they cause violence its by their own choice and would pay the consequences of it, and btw...should the police be able to handle a bit of fighting, isnt that their job???

I though abhisit was smart, he went to oxford!!!! I guess i was wrong all along, he is just as much of an army puppet as the previous gov't, more hypocritical that the reds, and almost as democratic as the coup of '06!!!

No, regardless of it's truth it is akin to yelling fire

in a crowded room filled with people wearing straw clothes.

Surely some innocents will be injured.

Sure it's truth if there is a fire, but it's also not allowed.

Edited April 9, 2010 by animatic

[britmaveric]

I agree they were backed into a corner. It isn't about liking or not liking what they broadcast. It is that what they broadcast was proven lies, inciting people to riot, and making death threats. That is neither legal nor acceptable in every western country. You are mistaken if you believe otherwise.

I seriously doubt any of what was broadcast would incite people to riot. They just sat there like zombies and applauded whatever was said. I think you need to judge the situation as what it is, fiery rhetoric and nothing more. These people are not going to do much of anything apart from marching around the streets unless they are provoked by heavy handed responses. One being shutting down the Red Station.

Imagine if they shutdown ASTV - I think there would be full scale riots by the yellows and they would trash everything.

Edited April 9, 2010 by britmaveric

[pimay11]

Although I hate everything the red LEADERS stand for, I am of a mind that Abhisit has lost all creditiblity to run the country. He needs to turn this arond today or do as the reds ask and dissolve the House. I doubt any Yellow or even neutral observers will forgive him for this weakness in the next election.

This is mob rule. It would never have happened under Thaksin (he'd have had the jatuporn et al quietly shot in the night).

I wonder what Sonthi and the Yellow Army are planning? Fight or flight? Has Abhisit's failure led the country into exactly what he was trying to avoid, a civil war?

Yes Abhisit has demonstratd that maybe he is a nice guy but the boots are too large for him

On contrary Jatuporn has demonstrated he has the qualities of a Great Leader.

Now, only one solution giving back the power to People IMMEDIATELY to avoid big disorders.

Dissolution of Parliament and Elections ASAP: No choice.

"Jatuporn has demonstrated he has the qualities of a Great Leader"

I am not normally at a loss for words but you got me this time. "Great Leader"? It is easy to tell when this guy is lying. It's every time his mouth moves.

[mic6ard]

what I find interesting is that in Kyrygztan, anti-government riot was really violent, and yet here it's mostly people causing disruption and not throwing rocks, well until recently anyway. Some people in this post sure have funny ideas on this, but hey it's their ideas.

Freedom of the press? Since when? Even in the US the press have to apply for informations, and then it's still heavily edited. And that's from one of the leading countries in 'freedom' . The PTV situation is not surprising, with it broadcasting anti-government rhetorics, the fact that it was broadcasting this long actually represent the amount of respect to 'freedom of speech' ideology.

Is it OK, in the US or UK for some people to get up on a stage and incite riots? Surely not. Give me one case where it was ok, am not talking about the Dr. King's situation, it wasn't this severe.

Us Thai are not a big fan of blood shed, and are trying to prevent this mess from turning violent, so the police and the army are holding back as much as they can.

for those who are agreeing with the immediate dissolution of Government, would it help? don't forget the Yellow shirts. What the PM is doing is probably the best solution. Get the election regulation in place first, then dissolve. But the UDD is not amendable to that, they want the parliament gone, and the regulation revert back to the Thaksin era, from which the PAD originated.

So make it what you will, but this is a FUBAR situation.

Personally us Thais can't live in total freedom, we are just not use to it yet.

On another note, isn't it ironic that the leaders of the Red shirts , mostly make up of the low classes, are some of the richer people? Take Mr. Thaksin for example, he's one of the riches Thai.