Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[jucel]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

I'll bite. At least one of the soldiers was using a TAR- 21, an Israeli made rifle which the Thai army ordered 30,000 of recently.

What does that have to do with plastic bullets?

plenty really! these are bad boy rifles depending on model and are not used for shooting plastic bullets!

can fire 900 rounds per minute

[anotherpeter]

Scorecard, check abrak's quote. He said anyone who believes Thaksin was NOT corrupt ....

[Moonrakers]

plenty really! these are bad boy rifles depending on model and are not used for shooting plastic bullets!

can fire 900 rounds per minute

And we are supposed to just take your word on that? I can find nothing in the net to suggest either way.

[humfurry]

The autopsy reports were due at 2pm. Any word about them?

[rogerdee123]

THE NATION: Jatuporn: We'll negotiate with Banharn only if his Chat Thai Pattana Party pulls out of coalition.

Somebody should tell Jatuporn the definition of negotiation.

Khun B is easy to negotiate with. He agrees with everyone.

[rogerdee123]

The autopsy reports were due at 2pm. Any word about them?

10 deaths from high power rifles

[humfurry]

The autopsy reports were due at 2pm. Any word about them?

10 deaths from high power rifles

Well that tell us a lot. Not slagging you M8... It's the media

Edited April 12, 2010 by humfurry

[rogerdee123]

As mentioned in a previous post some days ago, at least one chip would be taken off the "bargaining table" if Mr. Anupong retired early and his replacement could be appointed now instead of in october.

If that's what it is truly all about, then that's a good idea.

Yes I have to agree that the issue is much much bigger than that. This is only one of the "spoils" for the victor. But it might settle down some of the more shallow minded "jockeying" (sorry to use that word) within the military and elsewhere.

The one that everyone believes that Mr. A has been grooming to replace him is widely believed to be anti Thaksin ... but the Reds keep saying this isn't about Thaksin so perhaps it doesn't matter to them. (tongue in cheek)

[rogerdee123]

The autopsy reports were due at 2pm. Any word about them?

10 deaths from high power rifles

Well that tell us a lot. Not slagging you M8... It's the media

yeah I know ... I thought the same thing

[yoshiwara]

As mentioned in a previous post some days ago, at least one chip would be taken off the "bargaining table" if Mr. Anupong retired early and his replacement could be appointed now instead of in october.

If that's what it is truly all about, then that's a good idea.

Last Friday the army had egg on its face from the public dressing down it received from the PM regarding its ill-preparedness.

Anupong is clearly not happy about that and making an opportunist push back.

If a permanent replacement could be made on the back of an early retirement this would spoil Thaksin's plans.

Anupong is playing his position.

[rametindallas]

The autopsy reports were due at 2pm. Any word about them?

10 deaths from high power rifles

I would think one thing the Reds and the Govt. could have agreed on early on was that any bloodshed would hurt the Govt. most. Just who would benefit from Reds dying in conflict with the Army. When you are trying to dicypher the truth, just remember the TAT slogan "unseen Thailand" and know there are many truths, Also, 'Perception is Reality' as witnessed on this forum.

[penguinchris]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

I'll bite. At least one of the soldiers was using a TAR- 21, an Israeli made rifle which the Thai army ordered 30,000 of recently.

Plastic bullets can work for any rifle they are gauged for including a TAR-21.

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... the casing looks the same whether it's a real or plastic/rubber bullet. I won't claim to have looked at everything, but, I have not seen any photo showing real bullets, just bullet casings and expanded foam/rubber/plastic/whatever-they-are rounds. It'd be pretty difficult to actually come across a bullet, though, to be fair.

There are the bullet holes the red shirts have been pointing out to prove that real bullets were used... but in some of the videos I've seen there are red shirts holding real weapons, including one with an AK-47. So either side could have potentially shot the real bullets that caused the bullet holes, and based on the fact that at least one of the killed soldiers was shot in the head with a real bullet, it's obvious there are real bullets coming not from the army (which doesn't preclude their use on the army's side, of course). I would not be surprised at all if it turns out there are radicals/terrorists that have disguised themselves within the red shirts and have been doing all of the killing with real bullets, as the official investigation is saying.

As a side note - the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, and they make serious accusations based off of not knowing! Further, they say that after the grenade blast seen in the video, seven (!) soldiers were killed. They don't say injured - they say killed. That's certainly something we would have heard about elsewhere and obviously not true. I don't mean to belittle the injuries suffered by the soldiers - unfortunately I suspect some of the soldiers there were critically injured as it was a direct, close-range blast. But there's a rather important distinction between being injured (no matter how badly) and being dead.

[humfurry]

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... the casing looks the same whether it's a real or plastic/rubber bullet. I won't claim to have looked at everything, but, I have not seen any photo showing real bullets, just bullet casings and expanded foam/rubber/plastic/whatever-they-are rounds. It'd be pretty difficult to actually come across a bullet, though, to be fair.

There are the bullet holes the red shirts have been pointing out to prove that real bullets were used... but in some of the videos I've seen there are red shirts holding real weapons, including one with an AK-47. So either side could have potentially shot the real bullets that caused the bullet holes, and based on the fact that at least one of the killed soldiers was shot in the head with a real bullet, it's obvious there are real bullets coming not from the army (which doesn't preclude their use on the army's side, of course). I would not be surprised at all if it turns out there are radicals/terrorists that have disguised themselves within the red shirts and have been doing all of the killing with real bullets, as the official investigation is saying.

As a side note - the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, and they make serious accusations based off of not knowing! Further, they say that after the grenade blast seen in the video, seven (!) soldiers were killed. They don't say injured - they say killed. That's certainly something we would have heard about elsewhere and obviously not true. I don't mean to belittle the injuries suffered by the soldiers - unfortunately I suspect some of the soldiers there were critically injured as it was a direct, close-range blast. But there's a rather important distinction between being injured (no matter how badly) and being dead.

I love those two words

[rogerdee123]

Good Post Penguinchris !

[tgw]

The whole thing looks like a setup.

The reds provoked the government until it brought the army in.

The army weren't numerous enough and was under strict orders not to fire live rounds at protesters, except to protect their lives.

It seems to me the criminal elements within the reds, which are controlled by the masterminds behind all this, had just been waiting for this moment to come.

Once the army was near the protesters, they attacked the army, firing assault rifles and grenades at the commanding army officers, as the murderer Sae Daeng boasted.

The reds had the dubious "help" of his "ronins" (criminals, really), who wore masks and carried AK47.

It all benefits Thaksin and his friends.

Bringing the Army near the protesters was a strategic mistake, since the only possible outcome was bloodshed, regardless whether caused by the army or not.

When the army units came within firing range of the protesters, the government had already lost.

I am very sad for Thailand, I hope a higher power steps in.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[retdson]

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... ...the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, .....

I love those two words

Facts can be inconvenient things sometimes.

Fact 1. The soldier in the France24 clip was firing multiple rounds from a 5.56mm assault rifle down the street.

Fact 2. There is no 5.56mm 'plastic' ammunition manufactured commercially anywhere in the world.

So unless the guy had hand-loaded his own rounds he was using live ammo. I don't know why anyone should would bother to try and deny it. I don't imagine there's an unbreakable chain of accountability in the RTA. If the solider in the clip was feeling pis*ed off, why wouldn't he send a few rounds down the street at the b******** who had just put his C.O in the hospital?

Incidentally there is plenty of footage of the security forces firing non-lethal ammunition. They are using Remington 860 12 gauge combat shotguns - for which commercially produced ammo is available in either rubber buckshot or solid cylinder form.

Edited April 12, 2010 by retdson

[tgw]

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... ...the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, .....

I love those two words

Facts can be inconvenient things sometimes.

Fact 1. The soldier in the France24 clip was firing multiple rounds from a 5.56mm assault rifle down the street.

Fact 2. There is no 5.56mm 'plastic' ammunition manufactured commercially anywhere in the world.

So unless the guy had hand-loaded his own rounds he was using live ammo. I don't know why anyone should would bother to try and deny it. I don't imagine there's an unbreakable chain of accountability in the RTA. If the solider in the clip was feeling pis*ed off, why wouldn't he send a few rounds down the street at the b******** who had just put his C.O in the hospital?

Incidentally there is plenty of footage of the security forces firing non-lethal ammunition. They are using Remington 860 12 gauge combat shotguns - for which commercially produced ammo is available in either rubber buckshot or solid cylinder form.

Your "fact 2" is bullshit.

There are both plastic and rubber 5.56 cal ammo, although the rubber bullets require an adapter.

5.56mm plastic ammo is manufactured in Israel and other places and widely used for riot control in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, and probably Thailand.

It has a minimum distance of 100 meters not to be lethal.

The plastic bullets are fitted into standard 5.56x45 brass casings.

There is no way to tell from the video if the soldiers have been using plastic rounds or live ammo.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[onthewire]

Anyone know who the really shot the Reds and Army??????

Puea Thai Party chairman Chavalit Yongchaiyudh on Monday repeated his call for Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to dissolve the House of Representatives immediately.

He said at a press conference that Mr Abhisit had made a big mistake by ordering soldiers to forcefully disperse the red-shirt protesters on Saturday night, thus allowing a third-hand party to step in and create violence.

Gen Chavalit said almost everybody knew who the third-hand was.

Well I don't can anyone help???????

[retdson]

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... ...the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, .....

I love those two words

Facts can be inconvenient things sometimes.

Fact 1. The soldier in the France24 clip was firing multiple rounds from a 5.56mm assault rifle down the street.

Fact 2. There is no 5.56mm 'plastic' ammunition manufactured commercially anywhere in the world.

So unless the guy had hand-loaded his own rounds he was using live ammo. I don't know why anyone should would bother to try and deny it. I don't imagine there's an unbreakable chain of accountability in the RTA. If the solider in the clip was feeling pis*ed off, why wouldn't he send a few rounds down the street at the b******** who had just put his C.O in the hospital?

Incidentally there is plenty of footage of the security forces firing non-lethal ammunition. They are using Remington 860 12 gauge combat shotguns - for which commercially produced ammo is available in either rubber buckshot or solid cylinder form.

Your "fact 2" is bullshit.

There are both plastic and rubber 5.56 cal ammo, although the rubber bullets require an adapter.

5.56mm plastic ammo is manufactured in Israel and other places and widely used for riot control in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, and probably Thailand.

It has a minimum distance of 100 meters not to be lethal.

The plastic bullets are fitted into standard 5.56x45 brass casings.

There is no way to tell from the video if the soldiers have been using plastic rounds or live ammo.

Yep - I stand corrected. You're talking about the plastic practice ammo that was turned down by the US military in Iraq for riot control purposes because of the risk of serious injury.

Edited April 12, 2010 by retdson

[humfurry]

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... ...the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, .....

I love those two words

Facts can be inconvenient things sometimes.

Fact 1. The soldier in the France24 clip was firing multiple rounds from a 5.56mm assault rifle down the street.

Fact 2. There is no 5.56mm 'plastic' ammunition manufactured commercially anywhere in the world.

So unless the guy had hand-loaded his own rounds he was using live ammo. I don't know why anyone should would bother to try and deny it. I don't imagine there's an unbreakable chain of accountability in the RTA. If the solider in the clip was feeling pis*ed off, why wouldn't he send a few rounds down the street at the b******** who had just put his C.O in the hospital?

Incidentally there is plenty of footage of the security forces firing non-lethal ammunition. They are using Remington 860 12 gauge combat shotguns - for which commercially produced ammo is available in either rubber buckshot or solid cylinder form.

Your "fact 2" is bullshit.

There are both plastic and rubber 5.56 cal ammo, although the rubber bullets require an adapter.

5.56mm plastic ammo is manufactured in Israel and other places and widely used for riot control in countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, and probably Thailand.

It has a minimum distance of 100 meters not to be lethal.

The plastic bullets are fitted into standard 5.56x45 brass casings.

There is no way to tell from the video if the soldiers have been using plastic rounds or live ammo.

Wow!

[humfurry]

Absolutely... and most of the photos that have circulated show only the bullet casings, not the actual bullets, as if that proves anything... ...the video on france24 is interesting, but the reporting is really irresponsible (obvious from the responses it's gotten here), and is representative of a lot of the irresponsible reporting done by foreigners that I've seen. Clearly, nothing they said was fact-checked - they don't know if the soldiers are using real bullets or not, .....

I love those two words

Facts can be inconvenient things sometimes.

Fact 1. The soldier in the France24 clip was firing multiple rounds from a 5.56mm assault rifle down the street.

Fact 2. There is no 5.56mm 'plastic' ammunition manufactured commercially anywhere in the world.

So unless the guy had hand-loaded his own rounds he was using live ammo. I don't know why anyone should would bother to try and deny it. I don't imagine there's an unbreakable chain of accountability in the RTA. If the solider in the clip was feeling pis*ed off, why wouldn't he send a few rounds down the street at the b******** who had just put his C.O in the hospital?

Incidentally there is plenty of footage of the security forces firing non-lethal ammunition. They are using Remington 860 12 gauge combat shotguns - for which commercially produced ammo is available in either rubber buckshot or solid cylinder form.

My quote was regarding the responsibility of of journalist and journalism in general. Bloggers and contemporary journalist are always rushing to get things published. dam_n the truth! This looks good in print! This will get hits on our website! Same goes for TV.

Cheers, Hummy

[tgw]

Journalists love half-truths to create headlines.

"The Army opened fire on protesters"

while technically correct, they leave out the facts:

- after receiving a grenade that allegedly killed 7 soldiers

- possibly plastic ammo

- we don't know if the "protesters" they were firing at didn't carry AK47s

Also, I believe some of the military losses went officially unreported.

I read about a dead general and a dead colonel who are not mentioned in the lists of casualties.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[humfurry]

Yep - I stand corrected. You're talking about the plastic practice ammo that was turned down by the US military in Iraq for riot control purposes because of the risk of serious injury.

You both seem to know quite a bit about this... assume they were risky rounds... to who, the shooter or the recipient? non lethal range is? Would a grunt on the ground know this? Would a CO know this? Who would?

[tgw]

^as is visible from the earlier posts neither retdson nor me are knowledgable about such weapons and ammo.

I happened to serve some time in the army, but have nothing much more to show, but I believe I research my facts better before I post.

And about the ammo, I would believe that even the Thai army briefs its soldiers about the ammo's combat properties.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[humfurry]

^as is visible from the earlier posts neither retdson nor me are knowledgable about such weapons and ammo.

I happened to serve some time in the army, but have nothing much more to show, but I believe I research my facts better before I post.

And about the ammo, I would believe that even the Thai army briefs its soldiers about the ammo's combat properties.

Thank you for your honesty... do you know any one on who would know the details about the cartridges and the Thai purchase of rounds such as these?

[dino67]

The France24 video shows a soldier firing one shot from an M16 that may have been at the same elevation as the crowd - he may have shot at a wall !

The following shots are at an elevation well over the protestors heads.

I'm not taking sides but have 30+ years experience with ballistics and firearms.

[humfurry]

The Election Commission told a press conference that it voted 4:5 to request the Constitution Court's order to dissolve the Democrat Party.

The party was accused of having unlawfully obtained donations from TPI Polene.

In the next step, the EC will pass on the case to the Office of the Attorney-General to consider before sending the case to the Constitution Court.

The Nation

[humfurry]

The Election Commission told a press conference that it voted 4:5 to request the Constitution Court's order to dissolve the Democrat Party.

The party was accused of having unlawfully obtained donations from TPI Polene.

In the next step, the EC will pass on the case to the Office of the Attorney-General to consider before sending the case to the Constitution Court.

The Nation

WOW! This is insane! it gets weirder and weirder...

[tgw]

The France24 video shows a soldier firing one shot from an M16 that may have been at the same elevation as the crowd - he may have shot at a wall !

The following shots are at an elevation well over the protestors heads.

I'm not taking sides but have 30+ years experience with ballistics and firearms.

^well, then you know that you can't tell if he fired plastic bullets, and you can't tell how far the "crowd" was, and you cannot even tell if there was a crowd in the video or if he was shooting on the guys who threw the grenade on his buddies earlier, and you cannot say if the guys he was shooting at were armed and shooting at the soldiers...

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[humfurry]

The Election Commission told a press conference that it voted 4:5 to request the Constitution Court's order to dissolve the Democrat Party.

The party was accused of having unlawfully obtained donations from TPI Polene.

In the next step, the EC will pass on the case to the Office of the Attorney-General to consider before sending the case to the Constitution Court.

The Nation

WOW! This is insane! it gets weirder and weirder...

PS my wife <deleted> furious about this!