Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[britmaveric]

Rumours on Thai boards of border police and soldiers on the way to Bangkok from Pranburi (Thanarat Infantry Camp) tonight. Maybe another attempt later today to seize back the areas currently controlled by the red shirts?

Let's hope not or its going to be a worse repeat of last night.

[Maestro]

Thai "red shirts" defiant

...troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas while the protesters fought back with grenades, guns and gas bombs...

-- Reuters 2010-04-11

[Maestro]

Bangkok clashes death toll climbs to 20, with 800 hurt

...whole column of military vehicles here that have simply been abandoned. That's how fierce the fighting was, and how quickly the soldiers had to retreat...

-- BBC 2010-04-11

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Ijustwannateach]

The attempt to derail the thread into American politics has been deleted and a warning issued; further attempts in that direction will receive warnings.

[blackman]

last night my wife was watching a news program on NBT channel 5

i was reading but she said to me look at this now with some urgency.

just look she said, the presenter had told the viewers to look at the clip and decide what they thought about the current conflict based on what they saw

so i looked, there was no dialogue, no subtitles, no leading statements

it was film of a group of soldiers that were in a small soi

it was taken from behind them, i suspect by one of their own

they were walking up the soi and were ambushed by a group of reds, they came under grenade attack and automatic fire

at least 5 were hit in the initial exchange and their lifeless bodies lay on the ground whilst the soldiers took cover

after a few seconds the gunfire ceased and they came from cover to get their fallen comrades

they grabbed them and dragged them to cover and whilst doing so came under automatic fire and grenade attack again

more were hit, and the remainder took cover again.

they came from cover again and were under fire again whilst trying to help the fallen soldiers

eventually some reds entered the scene with their hands held in the air signalling back to the main body of reds that the gunfire should stop

they ran to help the fallen soldiers, the impression was that even they had seen enough of the slaughter

there were close ups of dead or dying soldiers covered in blood

when the film ended the presenter could hardly speak, his words were staggered and measured, his eyes welled up with tears

like me he was fighting back his emotions, just as i am doing now, reliving this harrowing film account

there was a very quietly spoken army spokesman came on after the TV presenter and he seemed to explain what had happened in the film

he too was visibly upset.

if you get chance to watch this, then do so, it gives some balance to the other films circulating condemning the army

meantime i will try to find the film on youtube or the news channel website

[humfurry]

Sometimes one must remove one's self from a situation to understand it.

Pretend all you out there that This all happened in America.

Americans were in the street. The American military fired at American protesters.

Over 800 dead and injured was reported by the American Government.

How many of you other than Yellow Thais, would even think of defending that American government? None

Europeans would be calling the standing American government Nazis.

(And Europe knows a Nazi when they see one)

At the same time, American main stream media TV was being censure.

At the same time--sites called American visa were being controlled.

Would any of you here be defending the American government?

NO

So why defend the Thai government now?

you are certainly referring to the 1992 Los Angeles riots which left 53 dead and thousands of injured ?

I lived in LA most of my life and certainly during the riots. Trust me we were more than happy to have the National Guard come in and take back control of the city.

Edited April 12, 2010 by humfurry

[cavelight]

Regardless of your views, from an objective analytical position I'm surprised the reds stopped when they seemed to be gaining tactical momentum in the city, with plenty of captured weapons including what appears to be 20mm on their stage. Their ability to capture armoured vehicles was interesting and unexpected. I don't see what there was to stop them taking the whole city, other than manpower - 20mm rounds go through thinner walls like butter, and through bullet-proof vests as though they were T-shirts. They certainly had the motivation. With fresh influxes of rural (and urban) poor to significantly swell red shirt numbers, the army would have to pitch ever-increasing quantities of soldiers and hardware at them - and that's a slippery slope to full-on urban revolution, especially if the reds' ability to capture military hardware continued or escalated.

Some will say the army "withdrew". Looking at the number of destroyed or immobilised armoured vehicles, it looks more like a retreat.

Edited April 12, 2010 by cavelight

[Eagle60]

It is so sad and I only hope a solution is found as I love this country. A non political unbiased view point. Get talking not fighting.

Edited April 12, 2010 by davidcc

[xminator]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

[neverdie]

Sounds like a coup is coming.

[Moonrakers]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

[neverdie]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

Ohh last night there was one poster on thai visa claiming 'experts' wern't required (apparently anyone could see)

this place certainly takes all types

[Artisi]

Maybe they should have sent in some real military instead of a bunch of boy scouts, once the reds sized up the lack of direction and competence of the "troops" it was then a push-over for them, evident by the amount of equipment abandoned as the "troops" fled.

Luckily it was only the reds they were up against and not a foreign force otherwise Bankok would now be in the hands of someone else.

[Sunderland]

Sounds like a coup is coming.

It would appear that the army won't be backing any further action alongside this government and why would they after being led blindly into a shootout they had little chance of winning without bringing in heavier guns and causing huge loss of life.

I think Abhisit will resign or call for dissolution by tonight. He's running out of options now. If he resigns and cites lack of support, he still has a future, although I can't see the military every backing him again.

[dhrobertson]

Does anyone know just what the red's are after? When interviewed by the Beeb, a spokesman said they wanted one man one vote! Was he having a laugh?

Seriously, what actions would the reds like the government to take? Isn't education now free for all? The village funds were abused - do they want more of that? The 30Baht heath care was a joke. Sounded good but the government failed to provide sufficient resources to deliver it.

You can not hope to take over sections of BKK and not expect to moved on by the powers at be. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the reds. Sadly it seems that out of so many generals, not one competent one was available to take charge. Overwelming force should have been used - 3 times as many troops as demonstrators with exit routes controlled by police to trap the ringleaders.

[neverdie]

Maybe they should have sent in some real military instead of a bunch of boy scouts, once the reds sized up the lack of direction and competence of the "troops" it was then a push-over for them, evident by the amount of equipment abandoned as the "troops" fled.

Luckily it was only the reds they were up against and not a foreign force otherwise Bankok would now be in the hands of someone else.

Easy to think that way, i understand, but for some people things are a little bit different when it comes to dealing with your own people. Clearly not everybody was thinking the same way that the criminals were thinking, THANKFULLY.

[Sunderland]

Maybe they should have sent in some real military instead of a bunch of boy scouts, once the reds sized up the lack of direction and competence of the "troops" it was then a push-over for them, evident by the amount of equipment abandoned as the "troops" fled.

Luckily it was only the reds they were up against and not a foreign force otherwise Bankok would now be in the hands of someone else.

Maybe they were caught with their trousers down. Certainly seems that they underestimated the strength of the rogue reds. It seems unlikely that the protesters being chased back onto Ratchaadamnoen in the afternoon who were later seen armed with sharpened bamboo sticks, glass bottles, rocks and plastic bottles ( ) would have caused the army to retreat as they did. Doubtful they would have got their hands on the arsenal of weaponry used against the army either. No, this was organized chaos/terrorism of a military nature which all points to Sae Daeng and co.

[Insight]

Sounds like a coup is coming.

It would appear that the army won't be backing any further action alongside this government and why would they after being led blindly into a shootout they had little chance of winning without bringing in heavier guns and causing huge loss of life.

I think Abhisit will resign or call for dissolution by tonight. He's running out of options now. If he resigns and cites lack of support, he still has a future, although I can't see the military every backing him again.

Not really Abhisit's job, or the govt's, to do the intel behind the operation though?

Rumours have been flying around for weeks about how a hard line would attempt to instigate trouble if any attempt was made to move the red shirts, if not before.

It seems the military (for whatever reason) has given preventing bloodshed a massive priority IMHO, hence the preference to retreat rather than retaliate.

[neverdie]

Sounds like a coup is coming.

It would appear that the army won't be backing any further action alongside this government and why would they after being led blindly into a shootout they had little chance of winning without bringing in heavier guns and causing huge loss of life.

I think Abhisit will resign or call for dissolution by tonight. He's running out of options now. If he resigns and cites lack of support, he still has a future, although I can't see the military every backing him again.

Not really Abhisit's job, or the govt's, to do the intel behind the operation though?

Rumours have been flying around for weeks about how a hard line would attempt to instigate trouble if any attempt was made to move the red shirts, if not before.

It seems the military (for whatever reason) has given preventing bloodshed a massive priority IMHO, hence the preference to retreat rather than retaliate.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, the army has now urged the government for a dissolution to be called. If these requests are ignored, the army (as history has shown) will spin on a dime and take action.

[KhaoNiaw]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

Also, I was wondering about all the real bullets being gathered to show that the soldiers were firing directly at protestors. We already know that they were being fired into the air, and they have to come down, so isn't it possible that a lot of the ones being shown had actually been fired into the air.

I'm sure there were soldiers firing into the demonstrators but some eye witness reports would suggest that at least some of the soldiers seemed to be under orders to pull back when situations were escalating.

[retdson]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

I'll bite. At least one of the soldiers was using a TAR- 21, an Israeli made rifle which the Thai army ordered 30,000 of recently.

[Moonrakers]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

I'll bite. At least one of the soldiers was using a TAR- 21, an Israeli made rifle which the Thai army ordered 30,000 of recently.

What does that have to do with plastic bullets?

[rogerdee123]

Sounds like a coup is coming.

It would appear that the army won't be backing any further action alongside this government and why would they after being led blindly into a shootout they had little chance of winning without bringing in heavier guns and causing huge loss of life.

I think Abhisit will resign or call for dissolution by tonight. He's running out of options now. If he resigns and cites lack of support, he still has a future, although I can't see the military every backing him again.

Not really Abhisit's job, or the govt's, to do the intel behind the operation though?

Rumours have been flying around for weeks about how a hard line would attempt to instigate trouble if any attempt was made to move the red shirts, if not before.

It seems the military (for whatever reason) has given preventing bloodshed a massive priority IMHO, hence the preference to retreat rather than retaliate.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, the army has now urged the government for a dissolution to be called. If these requests are ignored, the army (as history has shown) will spin on a dime and take action.

I believe that the Army itself is divided, which isn't unusual. When the military "takes action" there are usually these divisions and sometimes in previous coups we have seen some units fighting against other units.

I think one of the big questions is who is Mr. Anupong speaking for. My guess he is speaking for himself. He too has a superior just like Mr. Abhisit does.

As mentioned in a previous post some days ago, at least one chip would be taken off the "bargaining table" if Mr. Anupong retired early and his replacement could be appointed now instead of in october.

[slapout]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

If the military is not allowed live ammo against demonstrators, "even if some of them are armed" What is your suggestion for maintaining/restoring order? One possible suggestion, a presentation of 'Tiptoe through the tulips' as presented by the local lady-boy chorus, do you think we may get a real feel of what to expect from both sides.

Seriously, when rioters, or a mob of unruly people refuse to follow the mandate of the law, in effect, law enforcement people called to enforce said law must be given the guidance and equipment (lethal and non lethal) to handle a vast spectrum of potential events. If I were asked to comment on observation/reporting on conduct of the security forces, my first question, What training have the troops and the officers who led them have in the area of civil unrest? Lethal and non lethal use does not have to be a either, or, choice with proper issue and placement of the ammo and troops. This would assume the troops were trained to follow orders, and had competent officers, of course.

[neverdie]

What is your suggestion for maintaining/restoring order? One possible suggestion, a presentation of 'Tiptoe through the tulips' as presented by the local lady-boy chorus, do you think we may get a real feel of what to expect from both sides.

Now thats one live concert I would pay to see

[Moonrakers]

THE NATION: Jatuporn: We'll negotiate with Banharn only if his Chat Thai Pattana Party pulls out of coalition.

Somebody should tell Jatuporn the definition of negotiation.

[Artisi]

Maybe they should have sent in some real military instead of a bunch of boy scouts, once the reds sized up the lack of direction and competence of the "troops" it was then a push-over for them, evident by the amount of equipment abandoned as the "troops" fled.

Luckily it was only the reds they were up against and not a foreign force otherwise Bankok would now be in the hands of someone else.

Maybe they were caught with their trousers down. Certainly seems that they underestimated the strength of the rogue reds. It seems unlikely that the protesters being chased back onto Ratchaadamnoen in the afternoon who were later seen armed with sharpened bamboo sticks, glass bottles, rocks and plastic bottles ( ) would have caused the army to retreat as they did. Doubtful they would have got their hands on the arsenal of weaponry used against the army either. No, this was organized chaos/terrorism of a military nature which all points to Sae Daeng and co.

Caught with their trouser down, bl_oody h_ell how much time do they need to size-up the reds strenght, plan some statergy to handle this problem with the least loss of life - water cannons, high level sound devices etc etc - can only reinterate my earlier comments, luckily they weren't up against a foreign force or Thailand would be flying a different flag by now.

[scorecard]

I know I don't have to read these threads but really the two highly bias sides of the argument are incredibly boring. As you can imagine for two sides To end up killing each other there is probably a decent argument on both sides.

The assumption that one side is the inherently paid lackey of a crony dictator or that the other is elite group of the privileged few amounts to a belief that huge amounts of people on either side you choose are simply stupid. And usually assuming that large amounts of people are simply stupid because they don't agree with you simply implies you are the stupid one.

For those who think that Thaksin was all cronyism and achieved nothing they should do their home work and look at things like the reduction in poverty, rise in Northern incomes, reduction in inequality, rise in Gini coefficient. for those who do not Think he was corrupt there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. the reality, I suspect, is that he took popularism and promotion of the mass electorate's goals as a means to an end. The end being similar to K.Pridi's.

The same goes for yesterday's unmitigated disaster. The government wanted an end to the demonstrations and the police and army to enforce the SOE. It really doesn't matter who started it when the orders were given that confrontation was simply inevitable. And personally I think the confrontation would have been far less violent if it had happened weeks ago.

So I don't fault Abhisit and I place limited blame on the reds. I can't help feeling much of the blame lies with the security forces who virtually promote chaos in Thai society to maintain and protect their political hegemony. It somehow seems laughable to me that the aftermath of the current violence is a general demand for the totally incompetent security forces to have a coup to restore stability. It is tantamount to asking the lunatics to take over the asylum.

One wise politician said that in Thailand the jockey rides the horse but never owns it. Let's hope at 90 he doesn't even think that riding it is a good idea.

QUOTE FROM ABOVE:

"For those who think that Thaksin was all cronyism and achieved nothing they should do their home work and look at things like the reduction in poverty, rise in Northern incomes, reduction in inequality, rise in Gini coefficient. for those who do not Think he was corrupt there is plenty of evidence to the contrary."

You tell other posters to get their facts straight, well I throw the comment right back at you.

- What reduction poverty, please share some specific facts.

"...for those who think he was corrupt there's plenty of evidence to the contracry." Well if you have some evidence that he wasn't corrupt then perhaps you'd like to share it on this forum, it would be new information and worth a read.

But please don't bore me with more rubbish suggesting that yes he was corrupt but he developed the 30Baht medical scheme so therefore he's a clean and good guy.

Waiting.

Edited April 12, 2010 by scorecard

[Insight]

As mentioned in a previous post some days ago, at least one chip would be taken off the "bargaining table" if Mr. Anupong retired early and his replacement could be appointed now instead of in october.

If that's what it is truly all about, then that's a good idea.

[animatic]

Dont know if this have been linked before:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

France24 had a camera close to the grenade that killed soldiers and also subsequent fireing of live ammunition at protesters. I fail to see the soldiers fireing as in immediate danger. It could be explained if it where during the evacuation of wounded, but that looked like pure hatred and retribution - and the reason why you dont send military with live ammunition toward mass demonstration in the first place. Even if some of them are armed, the majority is not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but how could the reporter possibly know that they weren't plastic bullets (awaits comments from resident TV ballistic experts)

I'll bite. At least one of the soldiers was using a TAR- 21, an Israeli made rifle which the Thai army ordered 30,000 of recently.

Plastic bullets can work for any rifle they are gauged for including a TAR-21.