Bangkok: 10+ Dead, Hundreds Hurt In Bangkok Clashes

[tgw]

The Election Commission told a press conference that it voted 4:5 to request the Constitution Court's order to dissolve the Democrat Party.

The party was accused of having unlawfully obtained donations from TPI Polene.

In the next step, the EC will pass on the case to the Office of the Attorney-General to consider before sending the case to the Constitution Court.

The Nation

WOW! This is insane! it gets weirder and weirder...

they probably decided to step down and push the commission forward to avoid losing face by announcing themselves their stepping down.

Abhisit's out. sadly.

I wonder who will be put in charge now.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[humfurry]

The France24 video shows a soldier firing one shot from an M16 that may have been at the same elevation as the crowd - he may have shot at a wall !

The following shots are at an elevation well over the protestors heads.

I'm not taking sides but have 30+ years experience with ballistics and firearms.

^well, then you know that you can't tell if he fired plastic bullets, and you can't tell how far the "crowd" was, and you cannot even tell if there was a crowd in the video or if he was shooting on the guys who threw the grenade on his buddies earlier, and you cannot say if the guys he was shooting at were armed and shooting at the soldiers...

Ya the video was really crap... but the big news at the moment is with the Election Comission (EC) Democratic Party dissolved! <deleted>?

[humfurry]

The France24 video shows a soldier firing one shot from an M16 that may have been at the same elevation as the crowd - he may have shot at a wall !

The following shots are at an elevation well over the protestors heads.

I'm not taking sides but have 30+ years experience with ballistics and firearms.

^well, then you know that you can't tell if he fired plastic bullets, and you can't tell how far the "crowd" was, and you cannot even tell if there was a crowd in the video or if he was shooting on the guys who threw the grenade on his buddies earlier, and you cannot say if the guys he was shooting at were armed and shooting at the soldiers...

Ya the video was really crap... but the big news at the moment is with the Election Comission (EC) Democratic Party dissolved! <deleted>?

This is weird.... nothing on TV except one broadcast and the The nation. The Reds should be dancing in the streets! Something is not right here! And I'm sick of responding to my own posts

[humfurry]

The France24 video shows a soldier firing one shot from an M16 that may have been at the same elevation as the crowd - he may have shot at a wall !

The following shots are at an elevation well over the protestors heads.

I'm not taking sides but have 30+ years experience with ballistics and firearms.

^well, then you know that you can't tell if he fired plastic bullets, and you can't tell how far the "crowd" was, and you cannot even tell if there was a crowd in the video or if he was shooting on the guys who threw the grenade on his buddies earlier, and you cannot say if the guys he was shooting at were armed and shooting at the soldiers...

Ya the video was really crap... but the big news at the moment is with the Election Comission (EC) Democratic Party dissolved! <deleted>?

This is weird.... nothing on TV except one broadcast and the The nation. The Reds should be dancing in the streets! Something is not right here! And I'm sick of responding to my own posts

Somehow I missed the word "requested". It now goes to court as I read it. Point is... this is news!

[TAWP]

People channel has just informed that the militars are trying

to take back the dead bodies from the hospital?!? Is there

anything to hide?

Ah, so this was the lies the spread to cover why they needed to steal the bodies they wanted to parade infront of their supporters to get them into a second frenzy and possibly more violence...

[tigerbalm]

Three weeks of mostly peaceful demonstrations, and now this.

The Army shooting at the Thai protesters, the reds shooting at the Army, people on both side killed what a sad sad day , condolences to all the peoples family and the victims..

The problems seemed to arise after the reds started moving in on the financial areas, and the tourist and shopping areas,shopping malls being closed and according to reports loosing tens if not hundreds of millions of Baht or Dollars.

Now if you start playing around with the rich peoples money they are going to react, just look at the chaos one man has caused because for what ever reason some one has taken away some of his Millions of Dollars or Billions of Baht.

I say Millions of Dollars because there are some very rich people in Thailand's business world that would stand to loose a lot of money if the Dollar weakened, the more you got the more you loose and it just could be IMO, that the Baht is being kept strong against the Dollar because of this and not just because the Thai economy as we are led to believe is so strong, the protection of the few out weigh the need of the many so to speak.

It has become a war or the haves and the suffering of the have not's, the red leadership pawns on one side being used by one man and the elitists on the other side with the PM being controlled by the elitists via the army .

The Army is their to protect the money factory, who ever they may be.

Now poor old Mr Abhisit is in a bit of a predicament may be in a no win situation, he recently commented on the Army not being tough enough on the Reds, i certainly do not think he had shooting Thai people in mind far far from it, but now for what ever reason it has happened and he being leader will almost certainly get the blame.

He is a expendable pawn.

It is not looking good at the moment the whole situation is becoming a bloody mess and the ordinary Thai folk are suffering.

TB

[tgw]

Autopsy results.

"9 red shirts killed by bullets"

that is the only thing we know.

why isn't there any information on the type of bullet used? caliber?

And the results of the autopsy of the Japanese cameraman will not be released at the demand of his family.

Condolences, but why don't they want to release the report?

[retdson]

^as is visible from the earlier posts neither retdson nor me are knowledgable about such weapons and ammo.

I happened to serve some time in the army, but have nothing much more to show, but I believe I research my facts better before I post.

And about the ammo, I would believe that even the Thai army briefs its soldiers about the ammo's combat properties.

Thank you for your honesty... do you know any one on who would know the details about the cartridges and the Thai purchase of rounds such as these?

Like TGW, I'm no expert on these things. Just happen to have an internet connection and a previous interest in guns and ammo. To answer your question - after TGW's post I did some research and yes, plastic rounds are produced - so I conceded my point. I'm not sure where he gets his ranges from (I'd be interested to be PM'd a link), because after further research I can't find any breech loaded ammunition produced for this or other small caliber military weapons that is designed for crowd control. The nearest I can find is 'STRA' or short range training ammunition that is used for what it says - short range training. The bullet weight is only 3.6gms as opposed to 50 - 60 gms for normal ammunition. It's use also requires the weapon to be fitted with a 'training bolt' because the low amount of propellant in the load lacks sufficient pressure to work the normal bolt.

From what I found, this ammunition was mooted for close crowd control by the Americans in Iraq but was rejected because of it's potential lethality (exits at a very high muzzle velocity). However, the range is very short for the obvious reason that 3.6 gms is little more than the weight of a plastic BB pellet and a projectile of that weight loses its initial velocity and accuracy very quickly. Other than the one reference above I can find no other reference to 5.56 ammo of any kind being used in crowd situations other than in conjunction with a muzzle attachment similar to that used to launch RPGs - which allows the weapon to fire a larger caliber round (baton round or rubber bullet) that weighs enough to pack a punch at lower, non lethal velocities.

But,as I said, I'm no expert and would welcome correction or further info from TGW or anyone else with more info or knowledge.

[tgw]

not much info, I'm afraid.

Here is an article where they claim the Brits now use plastic ammo in NI, and that there are

"lots of different manufacturers out there making lots of different types of riot control projectiles".

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0524-04.htm

but I couldn't find one.

I think the manufacturers are not too proud of this kind of activity and we won't find a glossy website selling the merits of riot control ammo.

Here is an older article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/14/world/is...?pagewanted=all

And here is a google book extract:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VbrDbbHAf...ets&f=false

so... the rounds exist. The Brits have them. The Israeli have them.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-offic...s/185/18512.htm

[retdson]

not much info, I'm afraid.

Here is an article where they claim the Brits now use plastic ammo in NI, and that there are

"lots of different manufacturers out there making lots of different types of riot control projectiles".

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0524-04.htm

but I couldn't find one.

I think the manufacturers are not too proud of this kind of activity and we won't find a glossy website selling the merits of riot control ammo.

Here is an older article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/14/world/is...?pagewanted=all

And here is a google book extract:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VbrDbbHAf...ets&f=false

so... the rounds exist. The Brits have them. The Israeli have them.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-offic...s/185/18512.htm

Finally tracked down the Israeli round.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04...semi-wadcutter/

Seems they don't use them any more - too dangerous. Also, after the initial batches were made the load was reduced, so that the rounds became single shot - i.e. the gun must be manually re-loaded between discharges. I can't be bothered to look at it again, but I if i remember rightly in the France24 clip, the guy fired a few consecutive shots without touching the slide - which would (to me anyway) suggest heavier ammo. Unless of course the Israelis threw their old surplus stocks of initial batch ammo in with this year's order for 30,000 shiny new TAR - 21's! Anyway, that's my last word on the subject. An interesting web-search though - learned all I'll ever need to know about 5.56mm ammunition....

[kraxlhuber]

And where is Abhisit?!?

People keep dying because of him.

Actually they are dying because of your hero Thaksin.

They are just cannon fodder for him.

live by the sword,Die by the sword.

Revoke immediately Taxins passport and citizenship as thai.

Now,

then peace is upon us.

[kraxlhuber]

After 1 month of peaceful protesting this was bound to happen, something better happen soon before it gets worse.

peaceful?

Arisman invading the EC commission

Arisman invading parliament

oh shit sorry, those were fake reds............

Arisman and other leaders of the red movement are either communists and /or Muslims from the south of Thailand,

as the names imply's ,

and the violent ways,

says a lot about the arms used (and the way),by the destructors,

Gottcha.

[kraxlhuber]

with 3 hospitals not taking any more injured, because of the lack of space, there are more than 500 injured, and there will be many more deaths of those already injured

not beeing cynical(or maybe yes),some of the dying ,or in need of bloodtransfusion gave their own blood to be spilled on someones house in spite of all believes Not to do so.Now thereis not enough blood for the wounded about.

The spirits/ghosts are loose,they are now more bloodthirsty then ever.

cant help to say,SOM NA NA

Edited April 13, 2010 by kraxlhuber

[shrekroma]

Reds should stop rally ASAP. Not because they are going to lose. But coz they all going to die.

EC called for Democrats dissolve is the sign.

Abhisit is no longer suitable as PM. Everyone knows this.

Now he'll be forced to once again crack down Reds once and for all.

Then he'll be kicked out days later.

Reds should realize this. Bloody war is coming.

[britmaveric]

^Reds have nought to worry about after seeing how useless the thai military is.

[Slip]

^Reds have nought to worry about after seeing how useless the thai military is.

As usual, way off base BM. I know you are fully aware of history. This is a somewhat distasteful comment IMHO.

And actually, bearing in mind the events of Saturday.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Slip

[britmaveric]

Not really the military was embarrassed twice in 2 days or maybe that was planned that way? Anyways we all know the military is not going to move against the red shirts again - the military played that card and it won't be used again which is a good thing

[Deeral]

As I said earlier the PM has dithered too much and will have to consider his position. THe Army has at least partially deserted him and so have some of his parliamentary allies. I would say that the Redshirts have essentially got what they wanted.

[haroldc]

My 3rd post on the same theme: there is a kingdom, an entire nation, at stake.

Read the closed forum topic "Thai Minister Makes Unprecedented Call For Monarchy Debate."

Be assured that the producers, directors, scriptwriters, actors, and stunt men employed by the contenders are the best that their money can buy.

But as we are only about 1/4 through production, I expect that their are still many more action scenes to be shot.

[londonthai]

with 3 hospitals not taking any more injured, because of the lack of space, there are more than 500 injured, and there will be many more deaths of those already injured

not beeing cynical(or maybe yes),some of the dying ,or in need of bloodtransfusion gave their own blood to be spilled on someones house in spite of all believes Not to do so.Now thereis not enough blood for the wounded about.

The spirits/ghosts are loose,they are now more bloodthirsty then ever.

cant help to say,SOM NA NA

21 died (civilians and soldiers) and many more are dying from wounds - generally there was enough blood for transfusions, as hospitals were prepared for it (also after the protesters throw blood over the governmental buildings, the red cross noted a huge increase in blood donors all across thailand), my point was, that there were simply not enough beds in the hospital wards to take all the injured.

That's the only reason they had to stop taking the new patients and those needed help had to travel further away for medical care

[madi]

At least 230 soldiers were injured as they tried to disperse the red shirts protesters on Saturday, Emergency Operation Command's spokesman Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd said.

Ninety of them were seriously injured. Most of them were injured from bullet and sharpnels wounds.

Sad for all sides.

[blackman]

DEADLY CLASHES

Hunt is on for armed terrorists: Suthep

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Deputy PM alleges culprits linked to core DAAD leaders.

Strict measures have been taken to deal with armed terrorists among the redshirt protesters, while the police has launched an investigation into the use of warweapons on soldiers and protesters during the clash on Saturday night.

A police team has been set up to hunt down the men carrying automatic rifles, who in media footage were seen mixing in with the redshirt protesters during clashes at the Khok Wua intersection, Deputy PM Suthep Thaugsuban, who oversees internal security, said.

"We can't let these terrorists walk free on the streets.

Whoever they are, or work for, they must be arrested," he said, adding that the red shirts were in possession of hundreds of assault rifles that they either confiscated from soldiers or troops had left behind while retreating.

He said the redshirt movement wanted to change the country's system, and did not care about government rule.

Suthep, who is also director of the Centre for Resolution of Emergency Situation, alleged that these armed terrorists were connected to core leaders of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship, adding that some of them had previously worked as guards at various protest sites.

"Once those leaders are arrested terrorism charges might be put against them," he added.

so the tide is turning, the reds who initially blamed the government entirely for the deaths of the red supporters, have now, in a vain attempt to try to cover themselves as this thing unravels, have had to concede that there was a 'third hand' at work amongst them whilst still denying all advance knowledge of any plot to kill reds

this has been revealed despite the reds trying to close down the media, supress evidence, offer no help to authorities to bring these people to justice and trying to explain away about these 'men in black' being simply guards & confiscated weapon carriers to red storage sites

its a media war they have lost, a battle lost to the ordinary people of Thailand that know the difference between right and wrong

ordinary people have had the courage to identify these men in black

in fact the outraged ordinary peoples response has been so prolific that within 72 hours of the massacre its now become common knowledge who the men in black are.

its only a matter of time before they are found and reported to the authorities by those same people

Se Daeng is furious they have been identified and is now publicly threatening that the hunters may become the hunted

so its a tense time for the red leaders and especially for the mercenaries themselves

all the parties involved in this plot, know it will only take the capture of one of them to bring down this entire red deception

the mercenaries should already know that because of their own sloppy work they have become a target themselves simply to shut them up

the red leaders will be advocating that they ought be shut up and fast, to protect them so they cannot implicate them or their paymasters

they know if one of these people is captured and talks to the government, this is all over for the reds movement forever

even the most ardent red supporter would not stand for their own people being shot to make a political point

if the truth comes out, the red leaders who conspired with sa daeng and the mercenaries in this massacre will not need to be arrested by the government

they will be killed by their own people

Abhisit should make some moves to help the mercenaries, the reds and Thailand out of this dilemma:

the government should offer a bounty of 20 million baht to the first mercenary to be handed over to the government

they should be interogated and be made to tell who, what, where and when.

if they were to hand themselves in voluntarily then the mercenaries should be offered amnesty, big money and a new identity, if they will tell them everything they know and testify against their bosses

i realise this is an unpleasant scenario but when when considers whats at stake, its a prudent move

the alternative is not attractive for the mercenaries

the hunt is on for them by some very determined people out to avenge the death of their colleagues

they could surrender to the authorities and reap the benefits of a settlement and amnesty or they will eventually be killed by their own people to keep them quiet

in their line of work, they should know this already

if not someone should make them aware of whats likely to happen and quick before they dissapear................ permanently.

[bkkjames]

DEADLY CLASHES

Hunt is on for armed terrorists: Suthep

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Deputy PM alleges culprits linked to core DAAD leaders.

Strict measures have been taken to deal with armed terrorists among the redshirt protesters, while the police has launched an investigation into the use of warweapons on soldiers and protesters during the clash on Saturday night.

A police team has been set up to hunt down the men carrying automatic rifles, who in media footage were seen mixing in with the redshirt protesters during clashes at the Khok Wua intersection, Deputy PM Suthep Thaugsuban, who oversees internal security, said.

"We can't let these terrorists walk free on the streets.

Whoever they are, or work for, they must be arrested," he said, adding that the red shirts were in possession of hundreds of assault rifles that they either confiscated from soldiers or troops had left behind while retreating.

He said the redshirt movement wanted to change the country's system, and did not care about government rule.

Suthep, who is also director of the Centre for Resolution of Emergency Situation, alleged that these armed terrorists were connected to core leaders of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship, adding that some of them had previously worked as guards at various protest sites.

"Once those leaders are arrested terrorism charges might be put against them," he added.

so the tide is turning, the reds who initially blamed the government entirely for the deaths of the red supporters, have now, in a vain attempt to try to cover themselves as this thing unravels, have had to concede that there was a 'third hand' at work amongst them whilst still denying all advance knowledge of any plot to kill reds

this has been revealed despite the reds trying to close down the media, supress evidence, offer no help to authorities to bring these people to justice and trying to explain away about these 'men in black' being simply guards & confiscated weapon carriers to red storage sites

its a media war they have lost, a battle lost to the ordinary people of Thailand that know the difference between right and wrong

ordinary people have had the courage to identify these men in black

in fact the outraged ordinary peoples response has been so prolific that within 72 hours of the massacre its now become common knowledge who the men in black are.

its only a matter of time before they are found and reported to the authorities by those same people

Se Daeng is furious they have been identified and is now publicly threatening that the hunters may become the hunted

so its a tense time for the red leaders and especially for the mercenaries themselves

all the parties involved in this plot, know it will only take the capture of one of them to bring down this entire red deception

the mercenaries should already know that because of their own sloppy work they have become a target themselves simply to shut them up

the red leaders will be advocating that they ought be shut up and fast, to protect them so they cannot implicate them or their paymasters

they know if one of these people is captured and talks to the government, this is all over for the reds movement forever

even the most ardent red supporter would not stand for their own people being shot to make a political point

if the truth comes out, the red leaders who conspired with sa daeng and the mercenaries in this massacre will not need to be arrested by the government

they will be killed by their own people

Abhisit should make some moves to help the mercenaries, the reds and Thailand out of this dilemma:

the government should offer a bounty of 20 million baht to the first mercenary to be handed over to the government

they should be interogated and be made to tell who, what, where and when.

if they were to hand themselves in voluntarily then the mercenaries should be offered amnesty, big money and a new identity, if they will tell them everything they know and testify against their bosses

i realise this is an unpleasant scenario but when when considers whats at stake, its a prudent move

the alternative is not attractive for the mercenaries

the hunt is on for them by some very determined people out to avenge the death of their colleagues

they could surrender to the authorities and reap the benefits of a settlement and amnesty or they will eventually be killed by their own people to keep them quiet

in their line of work, they should know this already

if not someone should make them aware of whats likely to happen and quick before they dissapear................ permanently.

You don't sound like 'ex' cia there mate, anyways like your posts

[elkangorito]

Is this 'speculative' thread still alive?

[hanuman1]

THe Army has at least partially deserted him...

And that's the real story here - the army, who only answer to the undiscussable one(s), are showing signs of cracking from within.

That's why they appear toothless here compared to the quite deliberate reluctance to get involved with the yellows airport stunt, and the heavy-handedness of years prior to that. Without unity in the army the control from above is less effective, allowing groups whose discontent goes back decades to - for the first time - have a bigger effect on the status quo.

[Deeral]

Whatever happens to the Redshirts this govt can only have months left and as such will be little more than caretakers.

The Democrat party will in all probability end up being dissolved and Abhisit's support is if not crumbling, fraying at the edges.

It would seem also that the army is split over what they want to happen next......

use of the word "terrorist" is simply unfortunate....it is totally meaningless and carries a load of emotive overtones which the govt hope might emeliorate the situation they are - to wit one big hole.

[retdson]

THe Army has at least partially deserted him...

And that's the real story here - the army, who only answer to the undiscussable one(s), are showing signs of cracking from within.

That's why they appear toothless here compared to the quite deliberate reluctance to get involved with the yellows airport stunt, and the heavy-handedness of years prior to that. Without unity in the army the control from above is less effective, allowing groups whose discontent goes back decades to - for the first time - have a bigger effect on the status quo.

I think that's right. I have one brother in law in the police, and another in the army. When I was back earlier this year, they both told me that their respective forces are split politically. I'm now out of the country so I haven't spoken to either for a while, but I have my suspicion that the reason the army 'retreated' last weekend, is because senior officers didn't dare risk an open mutiny among the lower ranks. If the 'political' splits in the police and military become actual, then it's goodnight and last one out turn off the light.

[way2muchcoffee]

Whatever happens to the Redshirts this govt can only have months left and as such will be little more than caretakers.

The Democrat party will in all probability end up being dissolved and Abhisit's support is if not crumbling, fraying at the edges.

It would seem also that the army is split over what they want to happen next......

use of the word "terrorist" is simply unfortunate....it is totally meaningless and carries a load of emotive overtones which the govt hope might emeliorate the situation they are - to wit one big hole.

Civilian and/or rogue military forces using grenades and assault rifles on security forces is terrorism. Threatening to derail the BTS is terrorism. Public calls to burn government buildings is terrorism. Threats to the government leaders, their homes, and their families is terrorism. Assassination of military leaders is terrorism. Attempted assassination of government leaders is terrorism. Kidnapping and taking soldiers hostage is terrorism.

What would you call it? Armed insurrection? Civil war?

Edited April 15, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Deeral]

Blurting out and accepting off the cuff definitions of terrorism is just what certain elements in power and media want the general public to do - it has the desired effect to greater or lesser extent on public opinion - - I'm sorry these are threats reported by the media in ways that let them insert or use the word terrorism - To understand what is happening one needs to uderstand at least a little bit about the language of media and spin.

In fact these actions if we choose to label them with this meaningless and emotive word would make a lot of "freedom fighters" in history terrorists too.

to accept the use of this word in almost ANY circumstances - especially with regards to the current situation in Thailand would be very gullible and naive.

I hope that most posters would see through this unsubtle ploy.

[tallfarang]

Was at cowboy today and saw a guy in a red shirt get the sh t kicked out of him, Don't know how it started, and doin't know who was at fault but he was kicked by a few people before they took him out.