Thailand: Our Darkest Hour

[mamaarroi]

A bad and unforgiveably incident,but,again,what would have happened if the army would have let them continue.Bricks,stones,catapults,coctails are weapons.How many soldiers did the ira murder also,as they were not freedom fighters but a bunch of killers,tortourers,bank robbers,drug dealers.

Come on man. Didn't you see what happened in the 2nd video? You still don't get it. We're talking about the fact that the fight wouldn't even start if the army didn't open fire.

[Gambles]

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

So don't hold your breath on finding out the truth any time soon

It's amazing that the only people in Thailand who really know everything that went on yesterday are foreigners and that they all manage to post on this thread.

With all the prejudice on both sides consensus will never be achieved and too many posters here are falling into the trap of being blinded by their own sympathies, circumstances and beliefs. Yesterday was a very sad day - 19 people died and many of the comments on here are not respectful of that. My own prejudices tell me that in the government forces acted with restraint in the build-up to yesterday BUT I have no more idea than anyone else on here what happened yesterday so it doesn't matter a hoot what I think and nor do one or two selective video clips prove anything either way...

The best chronology that I've seen so far is The Nation piece but it will take a long time before we find out what happened yesterday - I can't help feeling that there is culpability on at least one side and hoping that the guilty will be held to account but remember guys, this is Thai politics and we are only visitors here and we perhaps understand at best 1% of the competing emotions yesterday that so sadly resulted in Thai people killing fellow Thais. More respect and less meddling in matters that we don't understand is the best position for foreigners to take right now.

CHRONOLOGY

A day of raging battles

How the clashes happened:

10.40am: Some 300 red-shirted protesters from the rally site at Phan Fa Bridge battle police at the Larn Luang intersection. Red-shirt leader Kwanchai Praiphana tells the protesters to gather in a group of 300. He asks them to push police away from the checkpoint at the intersection.

11.30: When two police serve arrest warrants on three red-shirt leaders at the Rajprasong intersection, a table holding Buddha images collapses, causing a red image of the Emerald Buddha of the protesters to break into two. Red-shirt guards rush to cover the broken Buddha image with sheets of newspaper and do not allow photos to be taken.

11.45: Some red-shirt leaders alert protesters about a possible crackdown by troops. The leaders, including Wisa Khanthap, Kwanchai Praiphana and Phaichit Akksornnarong, tell the protesters that they learned that troops were advancing on the Phan Fa rally site.

Protesters use pickup to block five accesses to the main rally site - Democracy Monument, Wanchart Bridge, Larn Luang intersection, Pom Prakarn intersection and Misakawan intersection.

12.50pm: Red shirts, led by Kwanchai, move from Phan Fa Bridge to the First Army Area headquarters on Rajdamnoen Nok Road, claiming they want to demand the Army to stop serving the government.

When they try to storm the compound, soldiers close the gates and train water cannons on them. The protesters throw pieces of wood at the troops before retreating to a site nearby, the Sue Bah area. Reporters say gunshots were heard coming from the area.

1.00: A reporter says protesters and soldiers clashed at Misakawan intersection on Rajdamnoen Nok Road. Soldiers fired guns into the air to disperse a group of protesters, up to six of whom were wounded. A company of soldiers doubled back to the King Chulalongkorn Monument to cut off a group of protesters. Soldiers had moved to Makkhawan-Rangsan intersection, in front of the United Nations building.

1.20: Hundreds of riot police are deployed at Ploenchit intersection while red-shirt leaders call for the protesters to form barricades to counter police.

TV footage shows police in full gear marching to Ploenchit, which is near Rajprasong, the venue occupied by red shirts for days. The deployment indicates that the government plans to disperse the pro-Thaksin protesters.

Red-shirt leaders tell the protesters to wake up and come out of their tents. They distribute handkerchiefs to protect the protesters from tear gas.

The leaders call for red shirts upcountry to go to their city hall and do whatever they want.

1.50: Protesters and soldiers clash again when the Army shoots tear gas and water at the red shirts who tried to raid the First Army Area headquarters on Rajdamnoen Nok Road.

The operation pushes the protesters back to the Misakawan area nearby. A protester is hurt.

2.00: Department stores around Rajprasong begin to close early amid the tense situation.

2.10: Some 1,000 troops from the First Army Area head to Phan Fa Bridge.

The troops march past the Education Ministry to Makkhawan-Rangsan Bridge.

A helicopter flies over the area. Officers tell non-protesters to leave.

Red-shirt protesters confront three companies of Border Patrol police at the Chidlom intersection.

The police had approached from the Asoke intersection past Ploenchit to the Chidlom intersection, where protesters rushed to try to push them back.

Police are armed with only shields and batons. Outbound lanes of Sukhumvit Road are closed.

2.20: Troops fire tear gas at protesters at the Misakawan intersection.

At the Phadung Krung Kasem Canal, troops move forward and turnwater cannon on the protesters. Some leaders on stage there are arrested.

2.30: Four Skytrain stations suspend operations. Passengers are told to use nearby stations as authorities are preparing to disperse the red shirts at Rajprasong. The four stations are Rajdamri, Siam, Chidlom and Ploenchit.

2.35: Troops push red-shirt protesters from Makkhawan-Rangsan Bridge in the direction of Phan Fa while starting to fire tear-gas canisters.

Protesters retreat, as they are not wearing any gear to protect themselves from the gas. Several have

runny eyes. Troops have crossed over Makkhawan-Rangsan.

2.50: Troops have already seized control of the area in front of the Kurusapa Auditorium at the Education Ministry, Modernine TV reports.

Military officers urge protesters through loudspeakers to go home.

The protesters stand on both sides of the canal while the troops maintain their position in front of Kurusapa hall.

3.15: Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra sends an SMS to his followers' phones using TSLive, which reads "Abhisit has ordered to suppress protesters and urged people to help protesters. Democracy and justice must be real".

3.20: Some 1,000 troops advance from the Royal Plaza to Makkhawan Bridge. The red shirts try to prevent them from proceeding to the Chor Por Ror intersection. The two sides confront each other at Makkhawan Bridge.

3.30: Hundreds of troops arrive at the bridge to reinforce those already there. Armed with batons and shields, they form lines to keep people from entering the rally area.

3.45: About 1,000 soldiers seize Makkhawan Bridge by firing bullets and tear gas into the air. Protesters run back as the fumes spread.

The soldiers line up and walked towards the protesters to reclaim the area. Protesters fight to take the area back while soldiers do not pay any attention to their actions.

While soldiers fired tear gas into the protesters, the protesters threw objects into a group of soldiers. Soldiers retreat, as many of them were injured.

Some soldiers are still at Phan Fa Bridge and fire rubber bullets to warn protesters to move out of the area.

3.50: Thai PBS reports that troops are firing tear gas at protesters. A Thai PBS reporter at the scene is apparently affected by tear gas, as she chokes and stops reporting.

Gunshots are also heard as troops fire into the air.

Thai PBS reports that the crackdowns against the red-shirt protesters at Phan Fa have so far wounded 33 people.

4.00: Thai PBS reports that protesters are fighting troops at Makkhawan Bridge. Protesters armed with sharpened bamboo sticks surge at the troops while the sound of gunshots continues. Thai PBS says troops fired rubber bullets at the protesters.

4.12: Protesters cheer as troops step back from the confrontation line at Makkhawan Bridge.

Protesters reclaim their rally area from the troops and push them back across the bridge.

4.18: Thai PBS reports that troops are retreating from Makkhawan Bridge to the area in front of Kurusapa Hall.

The station says the wind blew the tear gas back on the troops, causing them to be unable to defend their position at the bridge.

5.20: Bullets of an M16 assault rifle are found in the area near the Old Siam mall, which shuts down later.

5.21: Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd, spokesman of the Emergency Operations Command, confirms that Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban ordered the crackdowns on protesters.

The crackdown began at the First Army Area headquarters and continued to the Phan Fa rally site.

Sansern says 234 companies were mobilised to carry out the operation to break up the demonstration.

The crackdown was necessary, as protesters would not obey the emergency decree, which prohibits demonstrations, he says.

The dispersal of the demonstrators would be completed before night falls, he says.

5.30: About 1,000 troops march from Bovornnivate Temple to the Khok Wua intersection to push protesters back.

5.55: At Phan Fa Bridge, tear-gas canisters are thrown into a group of red shirts sitting in front of the stage, dispersing them.

Reporters also suffer tear-gas irritations. Protesters don masks to protect themselves.

6.00: Protesters shoot tear gas at soldiers. Soldiers play a song called "Rak Khan Wai Terd" (Love Each Other) and tell protesters to go back home.

6.22: Protesters try to fire rockets into the air after seeing a helicopter flying near the demonstration site.

6.51: Soldiers settle in at the Democracy Monument. They play another song, "Poh Luang Khong Roa" (Our Beloved Father), while many protesters express anger at the troops after hearing that many of their numbers were injured.

6.48: Troops keep people out of the Khok Wua intersection on Rajdamnoen Avenue and prepare tear gas and rubber bullets.

6.50: Protesters begin throwing objects, including tear-gas canisters, at advancing troops.

7.00: Troops confront protesters at the middle of Soi Khok Wua.

7.45: Troops shoot rubber bullets into the air as a warning.

8.00: A bomb is hurled into soldiers at the Khok Wua intersection, causing several injuries.

Gunshots and four more explosions are heard.

8-8.15: Grenades are fired into Government House, causing some damage.

9: Protest co-leader Natthawut Saikua offers a ceasefire, saying soldiers should stop shooting before the protesters disperse.

9.15: Centre for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd announces in a broadcast that soldiers would keep their distance from the protesters after both sides stop firing.

9.40: Red-shirt leaders dismiss the possibility of talks with the government, branding Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva a "tyrant".

11: There are 12 reported deaths from the evening's violence - nine protesters, two soldiers and one foreign photographer - and 520 injuries.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Gambles

[vicco]

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

I am quite familiar with this event but something needs to be clarified: The army held a full investigations and it was clearly established that only 3 or 4 soldiers reacted by firing at people who in some cases were trying to run away and get to safety. One soldier was found to have fired more than 20 rounds. These were not inexperienced kids....they were the Para's...one of the best trained fighting units on the planet....but not for police actions!! There was plenty of evidence that they had in fact been fired on first....but that was not deemed to be an excuse for the actions of the few who fired on anything that moved and killed (as you say) 13 people many of who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. What is important here is that this incident was the result of a very few individuals who overstepped the mark and exceeded orders by a wide margin. The whole atmosphere was highly charged....many soldiers and police had been killed and injured by the IRA previously. The overall mood of the Para's would not have been exactly pacifist. There was no shortage of ruthlessness and brutality on both sides.

We can look back now with some objectivity at all the stuff that went on....but at the time, it was one side always accusing the other....sound familiar?

The result of the incident was that the Provisional IRA had recruits lining up within days...and many many more people (including many British soldiers and police) died over the years that followed..close to four thousand I believe.

If and when the full truth is known about what happened in Bankok last night, we may well find something similar has happened here...we can only hope the long terms implications will be different.

[MellowYellow]

]What are they supposed to do? Stand there and be shot, stabbed with bamboo sticks, or burned by Molotov cocktails?

Wait. What?

So the scenes of the last week of red protestors handing bottle of water to soldiers and giving them medical attention and shaking their hands.....That all came to an abrupt end last night when they out of nowhere just went after the solders with improvised weapons whilst the soldiers were milling about smoking and joking?

Do you think that might be a bit disingenuous?

Do you think the soldiers might, just maybe, have been doing something a little more aggressive and a little more focused on the protesters?

It's easy to preach non-violence from the safety of a keyboard.

You really want to play silly ITG games?

Would you be more manly, if you had been on scene?

Would I have been more manly if i have seen and participated in violence?

[MILT]

Watch this. There is another video he has taken from the protest site.

Gives an odd insight into how organised and apparently compassionate the protests/protesters are.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thaifaq#p/a/u/1/AATZQeLIUCY

Someone shot first.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thaifaq#p/a/u/0/ztF6hUryt88

Considering the calm situation and proximity of the groups before hand, I have my opinion.

Like I said this all similar to text book CIA policy. REF: "OVERTHROW" America's century of regime change from Hawaii to Iraq. Author Stephen Kinzer. It is a great read base on solid facts. Check it out

[plazot11]

If you are going to use "quotes" please name the source. I do not believe your quotes were from Red Shirt leaders. I think you are telling Porky's. The Nation and The Bangkok Post are guilty of total bias against anything that looks like a Red Shirt. They have withheld the truth and the news for weeks! I give you the best quote for these times:

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty

-Thomas Jefferson

The government said troops fired rubber bullets and tear gas whereas demonstrators fought back with guns, grenades and petrol bombs.

That says it for me, the reds have through their leaders who have incited violence for weeks, have only themselves to blame, they wanted a fight and pushed and pushed and now they want to push the blame elsewhere.

Let the ones who incited this violence have their day in court and lets hope that Thai people realise that they were being used as cannon fodder.

no, the red leaders were not about violence on the streets, but the general election.

The dead numbers (14 civilians including a foreign journalist killed by the soldiers and 4 soldiers) and 700 hospitalised wounded point to the soldiers using force and guns, and not merely dispersing crowds with rubber bullets and tear gas, which suppose to be harmless

Every second word that the red leaders spoke was about violence. "Bring empty bottles to Bangkok. You can fill them up with petrol here. We will burn Bangkok to the ground" ... ON DAY ONE!

[JacknDanny]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

Who are you?

Henry Kissinger?

You sound like a wannabe academic, looking for his 5 seconds of fame, who unfortunately hasnt a clue what he is talking about, and cannot differentiate between Catch 22 and Catch 33!1

[MellowYellow]

CIVIL WAR is nigh!!!

Wheels of New Revolution is turing.....

Thaksin to make comeback and save the people of Thailand!!!

Long Live Thaksin!!!

Where do these guys come from?

[vicco]

CIVIL WAR is nigh!!!

Wheels of New Revolution is turing.....

Thaksin to make comeback and save the people of Thailand!!!

Long Live Thaksin!!!

Where do these guys come from?

Norway? I seem to remember that's where the Trolls came from. The 3 Billygoats Gruff and all that good stuff...

[bangkokbanks]

When groups of people gather on the street it is very difficult not to get swept up in a kind of group mentality. People get caught up in a tide of emotion. In the end, protesters were fighting for each other and soldiers were reacting to seeing their friends shot at or injured by bombs.

Once the fighting starts, it's almost impossible for cooler heads to prevail. I just hope that today both sides will calm down and talk to each other reasonably. If the leaders can refrain from empty rhetoric designed to stir up emotions, peace and reason will have a chance to carry the day.

You said it, beautifully written.

[bangkokbanks]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

Who are you?

Henry Kissinger?

You sound like a wannabe academic, looking for his 5 seconds of fame, who unfortunately hasnt a clue what he is talking about, and cannot differentiate between Catch 22 and Catch 33!1

"No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution."

What do you mean by that; what is your solution? Sorry but what is a white shirt, who are they? What is catch 33? You are confusing some of us at a very serious time.

[grandpops]

IMHO many people here from yellow and red sides will have enjoyed seeing the police and army on the back foot.

Lets face it, even the most rabid PAD supporter will not suggest that massive corruption carried out nationwide by these entities has decreased with Thaksin's departure. Thaksins influence never made it to the South where I live and it is as totally corrupt as it was back in the mid 90's when I first moved here.

If the current Red leadership ride this populist wave right, keep Thaksin out (you see, I never was a fan of his) there might be a chance of change.

Remember, most Thais have to pay money to one/other/both to carry out trade, open and run businesses and even just drive legally through Bangkok. How many posts on here over the years about corruption and tea money issues on highways?

Might not be that dart, and after all, the darkest hour is just before dawn!

[unclejunta]

IMHO many people here from yellow and red sides will have enjoyed seeing the police and army on the back foot.

Lets face it, even the most rabid PAD supporter will not suggest that massive corruption carried out nationwide by these entities has decreased with Thaksin's departure. Thaksins influence never made it to the South where I live and it is as totally corrupt as it was back in the mid 90's when I first moved here.

If the current Red leadership ride this populist wave right, keep Thaksin out (you see, I never was a fan of his) there might be a chance of change.

Remember, most Thais have to pay money to one/other/both to carry out trade, open and run businesses and even just drive legally through Bangkok. How many posts on here over the years about corruption and tea money issues on highways?

Might not be that dart, and after all, the darkest hour is just before dawn!

Agree to all yiour points except one....Thaksin needs to comeback to lead the people of thailand. He is THE ONE. The savoiur of all Thais. Time for change is here, if we can achieve it without bloodshed is the best

[RandyWhite]

Too few with a modern education is one of the root causes of this conflict and there's no quick fix:

Modern education > modern government > modern country

Hence you can't blame buffaloes too much for taking Thaksin's green grass when they will take any edge they can get.

Bottom line: Reds are mainly good people with mainly bad leaders - especially Big Boss 'Tokay' Thaksin.

PS: How's the tummy trouble from overdoing the Russian caviar, Boss?

[maeowyai]

The soldiers who were used on this terrible day in Thailand's history are no more than poor kids who have probably been forced into the army having lost during the ballot process, most of the red shirted protesters are poor people who have been whipped into a frenzy by the so called red shirt leaders, who retire to their luxury hotels every night.

There are no winners after these tragic events, lets just hope and pray that everyone takes a step back and reflects on their actions, and works tirelessly together to find a solution that avoids any further unnecessary bloodshed, but I assume that the perceived loss of face actually means more than the lives of their fellow countrymen.

There is a Solution. I discussed it with Thai academics when I was in Thailand, as well as Red Movement members, some Yellow shirts and many White Shirts, as well as representative of the KPI.

They all LIKED my concepts. No lie, a few even came to tears at the beauty of the Solution.

They suggested I take it to Media, but that is not allowed. Catch 33 huh?

Intriguing... perhaps you could PM me?

[enz13]

always read posts from people like the above,you do nothing but fan flames that should have died out when thaskin went ,instead people are talking of giving in to the violent minority,complete breakdown of democracy is what you are calling for,because this is an attempted coup by someone who has a total disregard for the thai people,until his links with anything thai,this wont be resolved,im sure most of us here with business/personal interest wish it would have ended peacefully,but the truth is, it never was going to, the reds cause for democracy is as bogus as its leader.sad truth is that after this showing by the reds they wouldnt win an election thats why its turning violent,the democratic way would have been to focus on the elections and not on attempting a coup,i just hope the present government has the fortitude to finish this farce as quickly as possible ,and let the plans they have made for the future take hold,its time for the silent majority to have its say,as to the above its catch 22 ,gotta laugh at pidgin english

[splodger]

I come from northern ireland it took 32 years and 3200 dead maybe more than 150,000 injured and goodness knows how many billions it cost,keep up the good work red shirts!

[retdson]

The problem started with the coup, continued with the PAD blockade of the airport and government house, and is now manifesting as the red shirt protests. And the problem is a lack of respect for, and enforcement of the law of the land. But you can't wholly blame the red shirts. They're simply following a very successful model shown to them by the people they oppose- namely using violence and/or massive disruption in contravention of the law to get their own way. It seems to be the Thai way of doing things - and it seems to work.

[Pattel]

I don't know who is right or wrong but it was always going to end in tears.

[Spee]

The question is how you can dismantle a clique (the ruling elite) claiming to protect and being in return protected without dismantling the protected themselves.

Brainwashing starts at school and continues each day at 8 AM and 6 PM and in all movie theaters. Difficult to build a democracy without freedom of thinking and freedom of speech.

While Thailand is not the US and vice versa, to me, these points are so important.

When the US was formed, there was a ruling elite. The colonial leadership was largely made up of land owners, business owners and wealthy individuals from the so-call upper crust of society. They knew that they had to sacrifice much of their autonomy, power and influence in order to establish a stable form of limited government that promoted fairness and general welfare. Yes, history shows there were mistakes along the way, but by and large, the exercise of establishing a stable but limited central government was a success and their sacrifices served to benefit not only the US but much of the civilized world. There are still lessons that can be learned from this history, in Thailand and many other places.

So too with the second point, as the US has evolved to the point to where public education has rapidly turned into captive audiences for indoctrination rather than education, to the degredation of the society at large. Again, there are lessons to be learned (for both societies).

For two completely different cultures on the opposite sides of the world, with completely different histories, to me, these two parallels are stark in their demonstration of what has been, what could be, and what will happen when straying from the fairest path.

People can continue to go on and say TIT, it's always been this way, etc., etc., etc. IMHO, this is a critical point in the country's history, not just because of current events, but for those inevitable events yet to come.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Spee

[gk10002000]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

Let's not forget that the Thai military overthrew the civilian government of Thaksin a few years ago, tore up the constitution, etc. Then the next PM was not like so he left.

If Thailand is unwilling to obey the rule of law and live by the constitution that is in place, then there is no law. The military is clever by somewhat staying behind the scenes and letting the PM take all the heat, when if fact the Military is in charge and has been since they overthrew Thaksin. I am not defending or supporting Thaksin, but he was the elected leader. If the Thais wanted him out, then there should have been some legal and rationale impeachement or disbarrment process.

[krakatoa]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

And if a pack of maniacs in red shirts had not massed and held Thailand to ransom there would have been no fight.

The whole fiasco was orchestrated, financed and manipulated by a megalomaniac otherwise it would have not happened.

The man should be exradited and tried for treason and put in front of a firing squad.

Edited April 12, 2010 by krakatoa

[Juzrelax]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

What do you expect them to do mate? The contry is being taken over by a violent mob wnich refuses to obey the law. No one wants bloodshead but you cannot expect the Govt & Army to sit on their hands forever. Numerous warnings were given.

[geriatrickid]

I support the position of the Nation in what is a call for dialog. Today is not the day to accuse anybody about the responsability of the events. Today, we have to support the efforts of cooling down the situation. Too many people are deaf and are not listening the arguments of the other side. So difficult... We have to take on ourselves to avoid flaming the positions.

Nobody want Thailand slip into anarchy and Civil war. I wish reason will prevail.

The Nation calls for dialogue now to protect its credibility. I believe many journalists are quite angry with the Nation and its bias and constant drumbeat for intervention. Abhisit was prepared to wait the Reds out and his strategy was beginning to pay off. The Reds were tired and numbers dropping. As I see it, minister Korn and the army acted in a manner contrary to the initial strategy set out by Abhisit. Let's face it, had minister Korn and others not threatened to undermine the PM, the waiting came could have continued. Now the Nation has blood on its hands. Yes, I said it. The Nation and its owner(s) are no dfferent than the Hearst newspapers that pushed for a Spanish American war with biased "news" reports and a barrage of opinion pieces. The Nation and a great many so called news analysts/journalists (hello TAN) will be held accountable by their peers in the world.

[blackman]

did anyone see the report of the soldiers being ambushed on NBT channel 5 last night?

very harrowing stuff, the presenters were in tears

if you saw it you will understand why

[VegasVic]

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

I am quite familiar with this event but something needs to be clarified: The army held a full investigations and it was clearly established that only 3 or 4 soldiers reacted by firing at people who in some cases were trying to run away and get to safety. One soldier was found to have fired more than 20 rounds. These were not inexperienced kids....they were the Para's...one of the best trained fighting units on the planet....but not for police actions!! There was plenty of evidence that they had in fact been fired on first....but that was not deemed to be an excuse for the actions of the few who fired on anything that moved and killed (as you say) 13 people many of who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. What is important here is that this incident was the result of a very few individuals who overstepped the mark and exceeded orders by a wide margin. The whole atmosphere was highly charged....many soldiers and police had been killed and injured by the IRA previously. The overall mood of the Para's would not have been exactly pacifist. There was no shortage of ruthlessness and brutality on both sides.

We can look back now with some objectivity at all the stuff that went on....but at the time, it was one side always accusing the other....sound familiar?

The result of the incident was that the Provisional IRA had recruits lining up within days...and many many more people (including many British soldiers and police) died over the years that followed..close to four thousand I believe.

If and when the full truth is known about what happened in Bankok last night, we may well find something similar has happened here...we can only hope the long terms implications will be different.

What happened in the bogside of Derry that day was nothing short of a bloody massacre, to try in any way to rationalize the action by the brittish soldiers upon the peaceful marchers is an obscenity of the highest order With that said, you are correct that young Catholic men (and not a few women) were lined up the next morning and for weeks following in Derry and Belfast by the hundreds to join the IRA! As I pointed out earlier today on two different threads here, should Abhissit pursue his present aggessive tack and not agree to elections ASAP it is possible that the army and the governemental police forces might carry the day and beat back the red shirts, however the next time the red shirts organize a protest in Bangkok there will not be 80,000 there will be 1 or 2 million I think that Abhisit is smart enough to realize that the worm has turned for the red shirts and it is time to relinquish power and have open elections

[VegasVic]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

What do you expect them to do mate? The contry is being taken over by a violent mob wnich refuses to obey the law. No one wants bloodshead but you cannot expect the Govt & Army to sit on their hands forever. Numerous warnings were given.

Juz, Are you refering to the yellow shirts who took siege of the airport in this post of yours

[Juzrelax]

The saddest thing is everyone had predicted this and there were so many opportunities to prevent it. In the end, either the curse was too strong or the dark wills of some of those involved to see it happen simply overwhelmed efforts to stop it from happening

Who holds the leash on the military?

Those that released the dogs of war are ultimately responsible.

Those protesters who engaged in the violence are also responsible.

But, if the army doesn't enter the fight, there is not a fight.

What do you expect them to do mate? The contry is being taken over by a violent mob wnich refuses to obey the law. No one wants bloodshead but you cannot expect the Govt & Army to sit on their hands forever. Numerous warnings were given.

Juz, Are you refering to the yellow shirts who took siege of the airport in this post of yours

My opinion of things was exactly the same when that happened. The then Govt should have has some balls about them and not let an angry mob take over the airport. I'm no political expert but you can't run a country on mob rule. I've had numerous discussions with the missus about this (Thai - Suphanburi, pro Reds) and it's not about who's right or wrong, it's about the Govt making a stand and saying 'no more mob rule crap' elections in 9 months and thats the end of it.

[chadintheusa]

The extreme faction of red shirts is led by a former Major General who is familiar with military tactics. The reds of this faction mingled with the other protesters and used guns and grenades to target army commanders. This former officer is a traitor to the Thai military and should be ashamed of himself for targeting his fellow soldiers. Thai army personnel are Thai citizens and many would come from the North. What good comes from killing them?

[Valentine]

The extreme faction of red shirts is led by a former Major General who is familiar with military tactics. The reds of this faction mingled with the other protesters and used guns and grenades to target army commanders. This former officer is a traitor to the Thai military and should be ashamed of himself for targeting his fellow soldiers. Thai army personnel are Thai citizens and many would come from the North. What good comes from killing them?

What I don't understand is why havn't the army put him in the stockade & charged him with treason.