Red-Shirts Blamed For Gunfights, Bomb Attacks

[animatic]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

People dressed in black means nothing. Photo's can be "photoshopped".

Given how the media spin and propaganda works did you not expect some "plants" to be walking around with guns ready to photo'd so they can put the photo's into the media if things went wrong ?

Prior to the evenings deaths I was watching www.uddthailand.com and the Red Guards arrested a few men who were not red shirts, who were mingling with the crowds and who were said to be "government plants" to cause trouble.

Perhaps if the government had not blocked the signal more people could have seen the arrests of the "plants" in the crowds, but hey, why have free and fair media when you can abuse state controlled media to say whatever you want them to ?

Total <deleted>.

[animatic]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

Lies Lies Lies.

Nobody has "admitted" to this. If they did they would be in prison.

Sae Daeng merely commented that there might have been some but he does not know who they are.

So please, do not lie.

He is also not a core "red leader".

Right, that's why he is pictured with Thaksin as he makes a speech to the rally...

More <deleted>, and all can see it for the merde it is.

[LevelHead]

I have not posted for 36 hours, out of respect for the dead, as I said I would pause whilst the loss of life occurred.

There must be an immediate enquiry set up. Independent and not involving any Yellow shirts at all.

The government first said

No live ammo.

Then they changed the story to "some had live ammo but only shot in the air, none fired at protestors" (although how they know that given the darkness and lack of control is anyones guess)

Finally they said some had live ammo but only shot in the air OR used in when circumstances needed it.

The outright lie of "no live ammo" has now been buried under later denials of differing things.

It also appears the "rubber bullets" were lethal too.

An investigation must be set up t study these "local made" rubber bullets and the method in which they were fired. At what distance is a hit to the body potentially lethal. Reports are one protester with a rubber bullet that went into his lung. That is not "non lethal".

A proper study needs to be set up, and if the rubber bullets are lethal or potentially lethal in the way as used and shown in the videos, then appropriate action must be taken against those who ordered their use.

Statements made early on must be compared to later ones and if stories are changing then people need to be disciplined.

Independent study must be made of the bullets and the guns used to fire them, and work out if they can be lethal and then at what range they are lethal. It must them be worked out from video's if people were using these at lethal distances. If they were there is no difference between rubber and live, they will both kill and the effect and intent of pulling the trigger is the same.

There was an enquiry into the tear gas canisters used in 2008. There was an enquiry into the bomb detectors recently.

There must be an enquiry into the "rubber bullets" now, who made them, what specification, what instructions for use, the guns used to fire them, velocity and to find out if they are in fact lethal, and if so at what distance and in what way.

If they are poor specification and in fact lethal in close range use, as they were being used, then people must be held accountable for them, and the decision to use them.

[saintofsilence]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

Lies Lies Lies.

Nobody has "admitted" to this. If they did they would be in prison.

Sae Daeng merely commented that there might have been some but he does not know who they are.

So please, do not lie.

He is also not a core "red leader".

What a load of crap you speak what is your problem ?

[moresomekl]

And yet again LevelHead suggests that only the Reds tell the truth when we know that People TV was showing doctored tapes repeatedly.

That the foreign press took pictures and presented facts (that are subject to discussion) showing the ones with the guns comingling with the reds doesn't seem to enter the red mindset that levelhead shows

Tell you what , there must be an enquiry and post mortem . AK47 and M16 rounds are different .

Let see

Meanwhile in the BP and the BBC i saw a report that two protesters were shot by soldiers .

[ChiangMaiThai]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

I wondered about that myself. Govt said okay, they will dissolve at end of year. Reds said no. Must be now. Seemed a bit odd. What happens after the charter is amended that would spell the end to Thaksin's hope of a comeback?

[LevelHead]

The government first said

No live ammo.

Then they changed the story to "some had live ammo but only shot in the air, none fired at protestors" (although how they know that given the darkness and lack of control is anyones guess)

Finally they said some had live ammo but only shot in the air OR used in when circumstances needed it.

The outright lie of "no live ammo" has now been buried under later denials of differing things.

Why does the story keep changing ? Changing of the story means you are telling lies ? Why the need to tell lies ?

If you have sent soldiers in with live ammo as part of their options, you can expect people to be killed. Abhisit and Suthep agreed to and authorized the use of force. They sent troops in with batons, shields, rubber bullets (themselves possibly lethal) and also LIVE AMMO.

The UDD have shown lots of live ammo on the stage, taken from government forces.

Suddenly now its all Osama Bin Laden ilk and friends causing the trouble ??????? Pull the other one.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I have not posted for 36 hours, out of respect for the dead, as I said I would pause whilst the loss of life occurred.

There must be an immediate enquiry set up. Independent and not involving any Yellow shirts at all.

The government first said

No live ammo.

Then they changed the story to "some had live ammo but only shot in the air, none fired at protestors" (although how they know that given the darkness and lack of control is anyones guess)

Finally they said some had live ammo but only shot in the air OR used in when circumstances needed it.

The outright lie of "no live ammo" has now been buried under later denials of differing things.

It also appears the "rubber bullets" were lethal too.

An investigation must be set up t study these "local made" rubber bullets and the method in which they were fired. At what distance is a hit to the body potentially lethal. Reports are one protester with a rubber bullet that went into his lung. That is not "non lethal".

A proper study needs to be set up, and if the rubber bullets are lethal or potentially lethal in the way as used and shown in the videos, then appropriate action must be taken against those who ordered their use.

Statements made early on must be compared to later ones and if stories are changing then people need to be disciplined.

Independent study must be made of the bullets and the guns used to fire them, and work out if they can be lethal and then at what range they are lethal. It must them be worked out from video's if people were using these at lethal distances. If they were there is no difference between rubber and live, they will both kill and the effect and intent of pulling the trigger is the same.

There was an enquiry into the tear gas canisters used in 2008. There was an enquiry into the bomb detectors recently.

There must be an enquiry into the "rubber bullets" now, who made them, what specification, what instructions for use, the guns used to fire them, velocity and to find out if they are in fact lethal, and if so at what distance and in what way.

If they are poor specification and in fact lethal in close range use, as they were being used, then people must be held accountable for them, and the decision to use them.

No problem

Everything is the fault of the third Party: "the Terrorists".

So no need any investigation on "rubber bullets".

[moresomekl]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

I wondered about that myself. Govt said okay, they will dissolve at end of year. Reds said no. Must be now. Seemed a bit odd. What happens after the charter is amended that would spell the end to Thaksin's hope of a comeback?

Could it be because they dont believe that Abhisit would keep his word ?

[jdinasia]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

I wondered about that myself. Govt said okay, they will dissolve at end of year. Reds said no. Must be now. Seemed a bit odd. What happens after the charter is amended that would spell the end to Thaksin's hope of a comeback?

A charter REFERENDUM is sent to all the people of Thailand and can't be controlled by one pressure group. The Dems have stated openly that they would include all parties into the draft revision group. In the past PPP tried to change the charter unilaterally. In a national referendum the PTP would not be able to push through changes that would decriminalize things that have happened in the past (in other words they could lift the ban on TRT/PPP executives and whitewash Thaksin). Thaksin needs this to happen.

Most of us on here that appear to be anti-Red are actually very much just antiThaksin. I think the rural poor (all over the country! not just in the North or Isaan) have valid concerns that MUST be addressed. They are being addressed by the current government and that is another reason that Thaksin needs this government gone. The current government is putting in place sustainable programs such as free education for 15 years, uniforms etc ... and have added real funding to the health care program that is now free under them. (Remember the 30 baht scheme was not Thaksin's --- but the poor implementation was!)

[whatsupdoc]

I understood that at Thai TV it was mentioned that the autopsy revealed that most if not all casualties were because of bullets entering at the back (!) of the head.

Anyone can confirm this?

[LevelHead]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

I wondered about that myself. Govt said okay, they will dissolve at end of year. Reds said no. Must be now. Seemed a bit odd. What happens after the charter is amended that would spell the end to Thaksin's hope of a comeback?

What "win" ?

The Reds want Democracy now, and and end to the elites corrupt hold on power since the coup. They want an end to what is now a very basic lack of any "checks and balance".

If someone beats you up, takes your children and your money and leaves you with nothing how do you feel ?

If they give you back one child but keep the others and your money, do you accept that "win" ?

Given the lies being pumped out now, and the media propaganda, can you be sure that if they agree to elections now they will not change their mind later ?

They said "9 months is the earliest". Impossible quicker.

Now they say "well it can be quicker".

So they lied about 9 months !

Whoever said 9 months and lied, obviously now has blood on their hands for causing the events that followed.

[dhrobertson]

BBC just announced head of army calls for dissolution of government.

Who controls these people.

[moresomekl]

Oh yes on means to an end and apportioning blame...

The Reds have kidnapped CAT Telecom CEO Jirayuth Rungsrithong and taken him away.

Acceptable means to an end?

Can you defend this?

I dont defend kidnaping of course its wrong .

But the red want their TV station back on air

and i think they are right .

If they go to THai Com they will be shot at .

So now what should they do ?

[TheOldWolf]

"Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdiphol, alias Seh Daeng and one of the hardcore members of the red shirts, emerged to brag about the government soldiers losing the battle on Rajdamnoen Avenue. He said many of their commanders had been nullified. Without the commanders, the government troops fell into disarray in the face of a relentless onslaught by the red shirts. Khattiya admitted that an unnamed group of fighters came over to assist the red shirts' "people's army".

He was right. Obviously, the red shirts fought against the government soldiers in a tit-for-tat way as they successfully fended off the government's attempt to disperse them from Phan Fa Bridge.

The government soldiers suffered heavy casualties. Col Romkhlao Thuvakam, deputy Army chief-of-staff from the Second Infantry Regiment in Prachin Buri, was killed by a gunshot to the head. Maj General Valit Rajanaphakdi, the chief of the Second Infantry Regiment, was seriously wounded. His legs were hit by an M79 grenade. Other key commanders also sustained wounds."

It´s from the Nation, but why would they lie. Can any red eyed even think that Seh Daeng was not involved on saturday

[dhrobertson]

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

I wondered about that myself. Govt said okay, they will dissolve at end of year. Reds said no. Must be now. Seemed a bit odd. What happens after the charter is amended that would spell the end to Thaksin's hope of a comeback?

What "win" ?

The Reds want Democracy now, and and end to the elites corrupt hold on power since the coup. They want an end to what is now a very basic lack of any "checks and balance".

If someone beats you up, takes your children and your money and leaves you with nothing how do you feel ?

If they give you back one child but keep the others and your money, do you accept that "win" ?

Given the lies being pumped out now, and the media propaganda, can you be sure that if they agree to elections now they will not change their mind later ?

They said "9 months is the earliest". Impossible quicker.

Now they say "well it can be quicker".

So they lied about 9 months !

Whoever said 9 months and lied, obviously now has blood on their hands for causing the events that followed.

What more democracy do they want? They already have the vote. Not my fault if they sell it!

Actually democracy doesn't work without equal access to education and information. This is the real problem.

Best solution would be a benevolent dictatorship for a generation.

[moresomekl]

BBC just announced head of army calls for dissolution of government.

Who controls these people.

These ppl , you mean the BBC ?

I dont know but i think our friends here

will tell you that the BBC is paid by Thaksin

[TheOldWolf]

Anapoung has lost his face time. He is the one that should resign first of all.

[chantorn]

I understood that at Thai TV it was mentioned that the autopsy revealed that most if not all casualties were because of bullets entering at the back (!) of the head.

Anyone can confirm this?

NO.

[LevelHead]

BBC just announced head of army calls for dissolution of government.

Who controls these people.

This would be the same man who, when the police used tear gas (purchased from China long ago) that killed a yellow or two when they were illegally and against the constitution stopping parliament for meeting (a far worse crime than most), called on the then PM Somchai to resign and who said if the Army ever killed anyone like that in crown control operations like the police did, he would resign.

Have not heard any request for Abhisit to resign, or any offering of resignations from anywhere else.

Wonder why ?

So many things are coming full circle now, this is the Buddhist way...................

[dhrobertson]

BBC just announced head of army calls for dissolution of government.

Who controls these people.

These ppl , you mean the BBC ?

I dont know but i think our friends here

will tell you that the BBC is paid by Thaksin

Sorry, should have been more specific...

I am astonished that the head of the army can speak out in this way.......

[termad]

Oh yes on means to an end and apportioning blame...

The Reds have kidnapped CAT Telecom CEO Jirayuth Rungsrithong and taken him away.

Acceptable means to an end?

Can you defend this?

Kidnapping? He's gone off as a pillion passenger with Arisaman driving for God's sake. He also was totally against the shutting down of the signal. You seem a little to eager in your posts to make/score points without checking the facts just like jdinasia.

How about Abhisit's means to an end? He now says "It wasn't me, it wasn't the Army we're completely innocent. In fact it was terrorists." Which terrorists? Al quaida, the IRA or maybe Ethiopian pirates.

The man's becoming a joke! Why is he hanging on to a position that he was never entitled to in the first place? Why does he not resign and call a general election with many International Observers?

Do you have an answer?

[TheOldWolf]

BBC just announced head of army calls for dissolution of government.

Who controls these people.

These ppl , you mean the BBC ?

I dont know but i think our friends here

will tell you that the BBC is paid by Thaksin

Sorry, should have been more specific...

I am astonished that the head of the army can speak out in this way.......

anapoung lost his face big time, like I said before. He should resign, but instead of taking responsibility for he´s shortcomings he put the blame on the goverment. But with 100 generals on his side he believes his is untoucheble

[moresomekl]

Anapoung has lost his face time. He is the one that should resign first of all.

Genl Anupong at his level is a political figure ,and he keeps his option open , the Abhisit

ship is sinking so he goes with the tide . Perhaps the post of Defence Minister in

the next admin for him ?

Having said that he clearly dont want the thai army involved in the current mess ,

, that is to his credit

[LevelHead]

BBC just announced head of army calls for dissolution of government.

Who controls these people.

This would be the same man who, when the police used tear gas (purchased from China long ago) that killed a yellow or two when they were illegally and against the constitution stopping parliament for meeting (a far worse crime than most), called on the then PM Somchai to resign and who said if the Army ever killed anyone like that in crown control operations like the police did, he would resign.

Have not heard any request for Abhisit to resign, or any offering of resignations from anywhere else.

Wonder why ?

So many things are coming full circle now, this is the Buddhist way...................

Also do not forget coup leader Sondthi in 2006 who said he was not interested in politics.............. who now is of course in politics in 2010.

[TheOldWolf]

I am qoiut aware of that Anapoung will not resign and he is playing a politcal game. But as head of forces he is responsible for the failure. He and all other 100 generals ave not done their job. Same I like to say ablut the police.

[Ricardo]

...

How about Abhisit's means to an end? He now says "It wasn't me, it wasn't the Army we're completely innocent. In fact it was terrorists." Which terrorists? Al quaida, the IRA or maybe Ethiopian pirates.

...

You appear to have missed Sae Daeng's claim, to be leading a group of gunmen, whom he called "Ronin' ? We have also all seen (except perhaps yourself) the Youtube-clips, showing gunmen dressed in black & wearing balaclava-helmets, roaming freely amongst the Red-Shirt crowds, and firing in a forwards-direction or at buildings ?

It seems highly-unlikely that these were soldiers, given their freedom-to-move, amongst the 'peaceful' protesters.

Do you think these might possibly be the men, whom PM-Abhisit clearly distinguishes from ordinary Red-Shirt supporters, and whom he now calls terrorists?

[moresomekl]

I am qoiut aware of that Anapoung will not resign and he is playing a politcal game. But as head of forces he is responsible for the failure. He and all other 100 generals ave not done their job. Same I like to say ablut the police.

What do you want him to do ?

He got order from the governement to intervene , he make clear

he is reluctant and in fact the army dont move at first , then Abhisit give

him the riot act

Then he put another general in charge , his next replacement .

Has he many options ? What do you think ?

[termad]

Oh yes on means to an end and apportioning blame...

The Reds have kidnapped CAT Telecom CEO Jirayuth Rungsrithong and taken him away.

Acceptable means to an end?

Can you defend this?

Kidnapping? He's gone off as a pillion passenger with Arisaman driving for God's sake. He also was totally against the shutting down of the signal. You seem a little to eager in your posts to make/score points without checking the facts just like jdinasia.

How about Abhisit's means to an end? He now says "It wasn't me, it wasn't the Army we're completely innocent. In fact it was terrorists." Which terrorists? Al quaida, the IRA or maybe Ethiopian pirates.

The man's becoming a joke! Why is he hanging on to a position that he was never entitled to in the first place? Why does he not resign and call a general election with many International Observers?

Do you have an answer?

What is the point of an election when none of the parties have a manifesto, nobody knows who believes in what and the bovine Thais will just sell their votes to the highest bidder?

I totally agree with you. The ideal situation would be to set a date when all parties had to register followed by the date that they would publish their manifestos. Hopefully, everybody would agree to International Observers and press coverage and to holding debates in Provincial Halls. However, TIT.

As to selling votes I've never believed that it was possible to purchase the millions of votes it would take to win an election.

Edited April 12, 2010 by termad

[Ricardo]

Lies Lies Lies.

Nobody has "admitted" to this. If they did they would be in prison.

Sae Daeng merely commented that there might have been some but he does not know who they are.

So please, do not lie.

He is also not a core "red leader".

Funny, I clearly remember him declaring himself a red leader, about a month ago ? Perhaps you can refer me to where Thaksin, his close friend, denies that Sae Daeng is one of his lieutenants ?