Thai Government, Military Seen In Discord Over Protests

[TITI1971]

"Mr Jatuporn said he believes the Red Shirt death toll is not just 21, but that more corpses were hidden."

Who hide them in that case? His own people, the hospital? the army had enough job taking care of their on dead and wounded.

Don't you think the army and the govt have interest to keep the list of the killed red shirts "low"`?

Do they show news reports with video evidence of dead protestors at television or is the army/govt busy with repeating the clip of the grenade attack on the soldiers over and over again?

welcome to the Thai freedom of media... they are always following a leader but not abolutely a PM in charge in 2006 or 2007 or 2008 for example)

[christiaan]

Is there anybody here who realy knows what damage a grenade will do exploding in front of a crowd??? Having been a professional Marine I do. It would be terrible, especially thrown in a crowd.

When there would have been real fighting with the crowd, shooting with real guns directed to real people, a couple of grenades thrown, over a hundred people would have died or badly injured. It is just astonishing so little people died. It makes me think the violence was just at a very small scale, and the input of weapons not as significant as people try to tell.

Or....there are more victims as we know of now. But looking at the information I can get now I would say the violence still was at a small scale compared to the number of people involved.

[britmaveric]

Not sure they were actual grenades.... I have a feeling they were flash grenades M84 from the eyewitness reports. Course I am excluding the M79 rocket propelled grenades that have been being used as of late.

Edited April 12, 2010 by britmaveric

[Master of the court]

Thaksin may remain a motivating figure for the red shirts who are asking for a democratic vote.Its ok to say 'let the people vote'.BUT... who for? Thaksin/ Absihit?Both now accused of corruption. I would fear for Thaksin should he ever manage to return to Thailand, powers that be would secure his demise.Absihit?Lost all control over his Country and his military.so who or what is the option?

The Japanese reporter was shot in the chest !!!

[aussimike]

Not sure they were actual grenades.... I have a feeling they were flash grenades M84 from the eyewitness reports. Course I am excluding the M79 rocket propelled grenades that have been being used as of late.

the purpose of a hand grenade is to inflict max casualties within a killing range of approx 10 mts -- and if such hand grenades were used on saturday with such large numbers of soldiers or protesters in the kill zone of the blast we would be looking at up to 100's dead and injured - what is being described as grenades in the reports would appear to be perhaps flash bangs or minor explosive devices - and M79 rocket grenade has the abliity to destroy a Humvie or armoured vehicle --and takes of limbs of the humans in the immediate blast area - not just minor injuries - just imagine the carnage if that was the case --

2 other nagging questions also remain --- who where the boys in black who had infiltrated the reds and were seen with AK47 and a machine gun - why dressed in black and face covered - if they were genuine reds why go to the trouble of hiding - none of the other red did - were they planted factions put in place to create further mayhem - and also the head of the army is now saying that the only real solution to this conflict is to disolve the house and hold fresh elections -- well this might be the way to go - as if thats what he is saying we might just be looking at another coup if the PM does not disolve the house.

the army has no real desire to continue with this and have lost the heart to fight -

the PM's comment on tv yesterday were a joke -- they are going to seperate the good and bad reds and charge the bad ones - how the hel_l are they going to do this -- what a load of frog sh++ - sure hope the PM has strong fingers as he is really just hanging on to power by the tips of them - and the army is not going to follow what orders he may issue to end this -=- he should take the advice of the reds and army and go - but the bunch of Polies around him are clinging on to what power they have left -- he is after all just a puppet --the interior minister is the one i would be worried about

[rodcourt49]

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

I am not suggesting more fighting. I just said if the head of the army made such a fiasco as saturday, he must resign and military is not suppose to have any opinion about politics.

In a Western Democracy its called "separation of powers".

[OzMick]

The UDD leader accused the government of distorting information and insisted that no third party intervened to cause unrest.

There will be no more negotiation, reasserted Mr Jatuporn

first thing this guy has said that I believe. This was a set-up, waiting for the military to come in for crowd control before unleashing war. Of course they needed martyrs, that's why that guy's brains exploded towards the army. If they are not squeamish about killing soldiers in riot mode, why not a few isan sheep.

[OzMick]

Not sure they were actual grenades.... I have a feeling they were flash grenades M84 from the eyewitness reports. Course I am excluding the M79 rocket propelled grenades that have been being used as of late.

the purpose of a hand grenade is to inflict max casualties within a killing range of approx 10 mts -- and if such hand grenades were used on saturday with such large numbers of soldiers or protesters in the kill zone of the blast we would be looking at up to 100's dead and injured - what is being described as grenades in the reports would appear to be perhaps flash bangs or minor explosive devices - and M79 rocket grenade has the abliity to destroy a Humvie or armoured vehicle --and takes of limbs of the humans in the immediate blast area - not just minor injuries - just imagine the carnage if that was the case --

2 other nagging questions also remain --- who where the boys in black who had infiltrated the reds and were seen with AK47 and a machine gun - why dressed in black and face covered - if they were genuine reds why go to the trouble of hiding - none of the other red did - were they planted factions put in place to create further mayhem - and also the head of the army is now saying that the only real solution to this conflict is to disolve the house and hold fresh elections -- well this might be the way to go - as if thats what he is saying we might just be looking at another coup if the PM does not disolve the house.

the army has no real desire to continue with this and have lost the heart to fight -

the PM's comment on tv yesterday were a joke -- they are going to seperate the good and bad reds and charge the bad ones - how the hel_l are they going to do this -- what a load of frog sh++ - sure hope the PM has strong fingers as he is really just hanging on to power by the tips of them - and the army is not going to follow what orders he may issue to end this -=- he should take the advice of the reds and army and go - but the bunch of Polies around him are clinging on to what power they have left -- he is after all just a puppet --the interior minister is the one i would be worried about

You've been watching too many movies. Hand grenades will kill UP TO 10m, not everything in 10m. The kill area is directional, radially out from the vertical axis, which usually is not vertical at the time, so a lot of the shrapnel goes into the ground or air, and none out the top or base, though I've seen base plugs a good 100m from the range. M-79 grenades are not rocket -propelled; they are fired from a shotgun-like launcher with a rifled barrel, and are inert until spun violently by the rifling effect, and are quite small, but very accurate in the right hands. They will not penetrate an APC, but a good/lucky shot might take off a track.

Most of the soldiers that I have seen on TV seem to be suffering shrapnel wounds from 79s.

What IMO would cause 100's of deaths is M-16s being fired into a crowd. It didn't happen.

Why did the black men cover their faces? Would you want to be identified? The isan sheep didn't know this was going to happen, they were there for a punch-up, not a war.

Edited April 13, 2010 by OzMick

[blackman]

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

There already are terrorist attacks almost daily. I suspect you mean terrorist attacks aimed at killing people instead of just instilling terror by random grenade launches at mostly unpopulated areas.

There was another terrorist attack withing the last hour:

M79 was fired at the residence of deputy director of TV Ch.5 but it missed the target and felt at a singer home.

Yes there are grenades which by the way never hurt anyone (except during the shooting Saturday) .

I dont think its from the red shirt

'Ronin warriors' fire M79 grenades at troops: Khattiya

Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol said that the so-called 'Ronin' warriors or underground warriors helped red-shirt protesters battle troops on Saturday.

He admitted that the "unknown force" or "Ronin warriors" fired M79 grenades at troops and one M79 grenade landed at the tent of the commander of the operation, causing the troops to have no commander.

"This caused the troops to have no commander and caused them to lose the battle," Khattiya said.

"The Army commander thought the red shirts were easy to be crushed but there are not," Khattiya said.

The Nation

i told you before that Thais cannot keep a secret, he has as good as admitted to the murder of Col. Romklao

Seh Daeng already has an arrest warrant issued for him

Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol, known as Seh Daeng, an army specialist who has been suspended from duty, is one of the 17 people wanted under arrest warrants approved by the Criminal Court, police said.

maybe they should add to this a reward of 10 million - dead or alive

[Jerrytheyoung]

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

There already are terrorist attacks almost daily. I suspect you mean terrorist attacks aimed at killing people instead of just instilling terror by random grenade launches at mostly unpopulated areas.

There was another terrorist attack withing the last hour:

M79 was fired at the residence of deputy director of TV Ch.5 but it missed the target and felt at a singer home.

Yes there are grenades which by the way never hurt anyone (except during the shooting Saturday) .

I dont think its from the red shirt

'Ronin warriors' fire M79 grenades at troops: Khattiya

Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol said that the so-called 'Ronin' warriors or underground warriors helped red-shirt protesters battle troops on Saturday.

He admitted that the "unknown force" or "Ronin warriors" fired M79 grenades at troops and one M79 grenade landed at the tent of the commander of the operation, causing the troops to have no commander.

"This caused the troops to have no commander and caused them to lose the battle," Khattiya said.

"The Army commander thought the red shirts were easy to be crushed but there are not," Khattiya said.

The Nation

i told you before that Thais cannot keep a secret, he has as good as admitted to the murder of Col. Romklao

Seh Daeng already has an arrest warrant issued for him

Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol, known as Seh Daeng, an army specialist who has been suspended from duty, is one of the 17 people wanted under arrest warrants approved by the Criminal Court, police said.

maybe they should add to this a reward of 10 million - dead or alive

This is just one part of the Seh Daeng declaration. He has explained that the Ronin fighters were trying to stop ARMY SNIPERS already shooting in the crowd, and in the action a Grenade has been throwed.

The mistake has been to put ARMY SNIPERS shooting in the Red crowd from Satri Wittaya School".

Please put the whole version, not only an extract.....

there was a third group of snipers "unidentified" Some other statements have also been circulating that the Army officers have been targeted by Laser beams from weaponry of the unknown snipers...

Seh Daeng was in a defensive operation...

[way2muchcoffee]

This is just one part of the Seh Daeng declaration. He has explained that the Ronin fighters were trying to stop ARMY SNIPERS already shooting in the crowd, and in the action a Grenade has been throwed.

The mistake has been to put ARMY SNIPERS shooting in the Red crowd from Satri Wittaya School".

Please put the whole version, not only an extract.....

there was a third group of snipers "unidentified" Some other statements have also been circulating that the Army officers have been targeted by Laser beams from weaponry of the unknown snipers...

Seh Daeng was in a defensive operation...

The only public evidence of Army snipers targeting redshirts was a quote by Seh Daeng in Matichon. While I have no doubt that Seh Deang has quite a bit of knowledge about events Saturday night, I would take anything he says to the media with a grain of salt. There is no evidence to substantiate the claim of Army snipers that were part of the operation to clear the streets. There is evidence of redshirts being hit by bullets.

There is plenty of video evidence and photographic stills of men in black carrying firearms mingling unmolested with the redshirts. There is also evidence of redshirts themselves carrying weapons. There is also evidence of soldiers being hit with grenades, bullets, and molotov cocktails.

And the big question: Who took out the Commanding Officer for the Army?

Moreover the director of the school in question has publicly denied this, not that it means too much in this time of mass propaganda.

Seh Daeng was careful to not admit that he was part of any operation. But he does seem to have a lot of information, which may or may not be true.

Edited April 13, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[thaiman]

This came from another board. What do you make of it? Is the army really that divided?

"Rumours Yellow will hold mass protests on the 18th to go head to head with the Reds, fight and allow the Yellow military side to hold a coup due to the violence that will happen.

If you are coming to Bangkok be warned, many in the military are Red, and they are prepared this time that if a coup is attempted by the Yellow backers they will fight against them, army on army, yellow on red, the long brewing civil war scenario."

[Old Man River]

If you want democracy and don't want military coups, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets? In my country (US) and most of yours, if demonstrations get out of hand the police step in and end it. Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

You suggesting the american revolution was a pack of criminal thugs? The British at the time did! These days, the US seems to celebrate this criminal band of brigands (backed by the French, who really were paid back big time in their revolution) some date in July.... was it the forth!

I wish some of you keyboard heros could actually learn something about Thai mentality and face in general.

Thais are pragmatic a will resolve this eventually and everybody will have fought on the winning side, apart from a few criminals (who will be decided by the winning team) who will be thrown under the bus.

I repeat, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets to settle this? Please, try not to go back too many hundreds of years to support your view. In the here and now (this millennium), is it the job of the military to settle civil disputes?

Okay I agree

But if they can not

who will

Or do you want the country to be set back 1000 years where survival of the strong is the law

Actually, I am with you. I know it is wrong, but the police are useless and Abhisit is lost. It is up to the Army and right now, they are more concerned with who killed Col. Romklao.

[Indo-Siam]

Not sure they were actual grenades.... I have a feeling they were flash grenades M84 from the eyewitness reports. Course I am excluding the M79 rocket propelled grenades that have been being used as of late.

The 40 mm round fired by an M79 grenade launcher (or by the M203 barrel attached to an M16 rifle) is not rocket propelled. It is basically a big bullet, propelled by gas. You can see photos at http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl06-e.htm

The second photo show the various types of rounds. Realize that the rounds in the photo include both the propellant cartridge that remains in the launcher, and the "warhead" - which is slightly larger than a golf ball.

The grenade explosion shown in the films would be about right for a 40 mm HE (high explosive) round - but there is no way to actually tell by looking at the film.

[britmaveric]

Army Commander wasn't killed by M79 attack - head/chest shots from a sniper. I wish the Nation would stop reporting rubbish.

[way2muchcoffee]

Army Commander wasn't killed by M79 attack - head/chest shots from a sniper. I wish the Nation would stop reporting rubbish.

Yes. The Nation is not a particularly trustworthy newspaper. Your source?

[Jerrytheyoung]

Army Commander wasn't killed by M79 attack - head/chest shots from a sniper. I wish the Nation would stop reporting rubbish.

Yes. The Nation is not a particularly trustworthy newspaper. Your source?

Should be a military leakage, is not it?