Thai Anti-Riot Squad Cut Up By Soldiers In Black

[anotherpeter]

I don't think the soldiers on the ground were firing live rounds somebody was firing live rounds from the buildings ( I think army) if you watch this video then you will agree this guy wasn't hit by rubber bullet.

Neither were the other protesters killed who were shot.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

The UDD would (and have) gained very much by the death of these protestors.

And a comment from a red leader on Sunday

"We will carry on with appropriate measures so our (red shirts') losses will be worthwhile," Nattawut said.

What could the government have ever gained from these deaths?

[snorkelador]

I'll tell who I believe stands to gain is Gneral Anupong, Prem Tinsulanonda and General Prayath.

They stand to gain by taking power away from elected politicians such as Abhisit and Thaksin and putting it in there own hands.

Well, I personally find that to be quite a bit bigger stretch, than the theory that those Ronin warriors took out some reds.

If the army really wanted to take power, they could have just done it. No need to get their own asses whooped in public repeatedly.

Also, who has been trying to incite violence for over a month pushing harder and harder? Who has been asking to take one million glass bottles to BKK, in order to fill them up and make the elite disappear from this world? There was an emergency decree out and that means there is a crack down coming! In my opinion the only option left for the Thaksin and his lackeys was blood. Last year Songkran blew up in their face and they learned their lesson. The blood throwing and voodoo rites did not bring the needed results, so they needed a big clash.

I would not be surprised though, if some soldiers would have used live ammo to retaliate after grenades and live rounds were landing amongst them. That would be almost expected I think. However, if the soldiers had gone in unprovoked and fired live ammunition in order to try and disperse the protesters, that would not only have been completely stupid, there would have been hundreds dead!

Anyway, it looks like the red leaders cannot deny any longer that the armed forces were attacked with grenades, rifles and other not so peaceful means. Seems to me there is a bit of backpedaling going on, when you compare to some earlier statements.

[humfurry]

Agree its quite clear the red guards were armed I believe these are red guards in the photo's I don't deny this but look at this video http:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src

And tell me who are the red guards shooting at in the window?

If the third hand is the black clad men mingling among the reds then who is in the window?

I don't know. A black clad man that was previously mingling with the crowds? A third force? A military sniper? A paid instigator? A redshirt guard? A psychotic killer out for kicks? PAD? A former soldier? It could be anyone, and we'll probably never know.

I didn't see anyone in the window, but it appears in the video that people did as they were using lasers to locate the window.

Who was shooting at the window?

According to the redshirt leaders they are a peaceful and unarmed gathering.

Lasers were also used to locate the Commanding Officer of the operation for an assassination. It proves nothing, obviously as anyone can pick these lasers up anywhere for a couple hundred baht.

Your right it doesn't prove anything, and I don't believe the reds for one second saying they were unarmed of course they were armed. But what I don't buy is that red guards were blowing the heads off red protesters.

BBC correspondent Vaudine England

"That idea - of a mysterious "third hand" - usually accuses a wayward major general of provoking violence through unexplained grenade tossings or shootings.

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said he had issued orders for soldiers to be equipped only with shields, batons and tear gas.

"They were unarmed, so some of them were killed," he said.

This conflicts with reports from a BBC correspondent on the scene who saw soldiers carrying and shooting high velocity guns. "

full article here

Well at about 45 seconds into that video you can see what looks just like a green laser sight pointing on the building on the right.

[noel2499rk]

I'll tell who I believe stands to gain is Gneral Anupong, Prem Tinsulanonda and General Prayath.

They stand to gain by taking power away from elected politicians such as Abhisit and Thaksin and putting it in there own hands.

Well, I personally find that to be quite a bit bigger stretch, than the theory that those Ronin warriors took out some reds.

If the army really wanted to take power, they could have just done it. No need to get their own asses whooped in public repeatedly.

Also, who has been trying to incite violence for over a month pushing harder and harder? Who has been asking to take one million glass bottles to BKK, in order to fill them up and make the elite disappear from this world? There was an emergency decree out and that means there is a crack down coming! In my opinion the only option left for the Thaksin and his lackeys was blood. Last year Songkran blew up in their face and they learned their lesson. The blood throwing and voodoo rites did not bring the needed results, so they needed a big clash.

I would not be surprised though, if some soldiers would have used live ammo to retaliate after grenades and live rounds were landing amongst them. That would be almost expected I think. However, if the soldiers had gone in unprovoked and fired live ammunition in order to try and disperse the protesters, that would not only have been completely stupid, there would have been hundreds dead!

Anyway, it looks like the red leaders cannot deny any longer that the armed forces were attacked with grenades, rifles and other not so peaceful means. Seems to me there is a bit of backpedaling going on, when you compare to some earlier statements.

Sorry quick question who are the ronin warriors, I've seen this mentioned a few times but I don't really know who they are. Are these the terrorists Abhisit refered to as the third hand?

Personally I don't buy into this third hand idea, there were two armed factions on the streets saturday night shooting at each other so as a consequence lots of people got shot.

Why people come up with this idea of reds shooting reds or of a mysterious third hand I don't know.

[noel2499rk]

I don't think the soldiers on the ground were firing live rounds somebody was firing live rounds from the buildings ( I think army) if you watch this video then you will agree this guy wasn't hit by rubber bullet.

Neither were the other protesters killed who were shot.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

The UDD would (and have) gained very much by the death of these protestors.

And a comment from a red leader on Sunday

"We will carry on with appropriate measures so our (red shirts') losses will be worthwhile," Nattawut said.

What could the government have ever gained from these deaths?

The same thing all governments have to gain from an perilous security situation, and that is to use it to curtail democratic freedom.

[snorkelador]

I'll tell who I believe stands to gain is Gneral Anupong, Prem Tinsulanonda and General Prayath.

They stand to gain by taking power away from elected politicians such as Abhisit and Thaksin and putting it in there own hands.

Well, I personally find that to be quite a bit bigger stretch, than the theory that those Ronin warriors took out some reds.

If the army really wanted to take power, they could have just done it. No need to get their own asses whooped in public repeatedly.

Also, who has been trying to incite violence for over a month pushing harder and harder? Who has been asking to take one million glass bottles to BKK, in order to fill them up and make the elite disappear from this world? There was an emergency decree out and that means there is a crack down coming! In my opinion the only option left for the Thaksin and his lackeys was blood. Last year Songkran blew up in their face and they learned their lesson. The blood throwing and voodoo rites did not bring the needed results, so they needed a big clash.

I would not be surprised though, if some soldiers would have used live ammo to retaliate after grenades and live rounds were landing amongst them. That would be almost expected I think. However, if the soldiers had gone in unprovoked and fired live ammunition in order to try and disperse the protesters, that would not only have been completely stupid, there would have been hundreds dead!

Anyway, it looks like the red leaders cannot deny any longer that the armed forces were attacked with grenades, rifles and other not so peaceful means. Seems to me there is a bit of backpedaling going on, when you compare to some earlier statements.

Sorry quick question who are the ronin warriors, I've seen this mentioned a few times but I don't really know who they are. Are these the terrorists Abhisit refered to as the third hand?

Personally I don't buy into this third hand idea, there were two armed factions on the streets saturday night shooting at each other so as a consequence lots of people got shot.

Why people come up with this idea of reds shooting reds or of a mysterious third hand I don't know.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/12/29...on_30119360.php

[way2muchcoffee]

Sorry quick question who are the ronin warriors, I've seen this mentioned a few times but I don't really know who they are. Are these the terrorists Abhisit refered to as the third hand?

Personally I don't buy into this third hand idea, there were two armed factions on the streets saturday night shooting at each other so as a consequence lots of people got shot.

Why people come up with this idea of reds shooting reds or of a mysterious third hand I don't know.

Perhaps it's all the video and photographic evidence that leads people to this conclusion.

[snorkelador]

I'll tell who I believe stands to gain is Gneral Anupong, Prem Tinsulanonda and General Prayath.

They stand to gain by taking power away from elected politicians such as Abhisit and Thaksin and putting it in there own hands.

Well, I personally find that to be quite a bit bigger stretch, than the theory that those Ronin warriors took out some reds.

If the army really wanted to take power, they could have just done it. No need to get their own asses whooped in public repeatedly.

Also, who has been trying to incite violence for over a month pushing harder and harder? Who has been asking to take one million glass bottles to BKK, in order to fill them up and make the elite disappear from this world? There was an emergency decree out and that means there is a crack down coming! In my opinion the only option left for the Thaksin and his lackeys was blood. Last year Songkran blew up in their face and they learned their lesson. The blood throwing and voodoo rites did not bring the needed results, so they needed a big clash.

I would not be surprised though, if some soldiers would have used live ammo to retaliate after grenades and live rounds were landing amongst them. That would be almost expected I think. However, if the soldiers had gone in unprovoked and fired live ammunition in order to try and disperse the protesters, that would not only have been completely stupid, there would have been hundreds dead!

Anyway, it looks like the red leaders cannot deny any longer that the armed forces were attacked with grenades, rifles and other not so peaceful means. Seems to me there is a bit of backpedaling going on, when you compare to some earlier statements.

Sorry quick question who are the ronin warriors, I've seen this mentioned a few times but I don't really know who they are. Are these the terrorists Abhisit refered to as the third hand?

Personally I don't buy into this third hand idea, there were two armed factions on the streets saturday night shooting at each other so as a consequence lots of people got shot.

Why people come up with this idea of reds shooting reds or of a mysterious third hand I don't know.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...p;keyword=ronin

They are a faction of the red shirts, quite different to the regular paid supporters. Hence Abhisit calls them terrorists, to distinguish between mislead regular Joe and those armed and dangerous instigators or enemies of the state.

[anotherpeter]

I don't think the soldiers on the ground were firing live rounds somebody was firing live rounds from the buildings ( I think army) if you watch this video then you will agree this guy wasn't hit by rubber bullet.

Neither were the other protesters killed who were shot.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

The UDD would (and have) gained very much by the death of these protestors.

And a comment from a red leader on Sunday

"We will carry on with appropriate measures so our (red shirts') losses will be worthwhile," Nattawut said.

What could the government have ever gained from these deaths?

The same thing all governments have to gain from an perilous security situation, and that is to use it to curtail democratic freedom.

That's just crap. Try again.

[noel2499rk]

Just to let you guys know there is a comment thread started on a british newspaper website where you will be free to say whatever is on your mind ( unlike here).

I'm not going to link to it because the editorial article alludes to things we shall not speak of. But it is a liberal leaning newspaper that started life in Manchester.

Previous threads on this newspaper have been very informative.

I'm off.

Edited April 13, 2010 by noel2499rk

[britmaveric]

^likely scenario and who benefits from death of the Col? The military itself might be cleaning house so to speak. Could be revenge for last years attacks that he lead? Or just dumb luck. Funny thing is we will probably never know.

[way2muchcoffee]

^likely scenario and who benefits from death of the Col? The military itself might be cleaning house so to speak. Could be revenge for last years attacks that he lead? Or just dumb luck. Funny thing is we will probably never know.

dam_n. I just hate a mystery without an ending.

[humfurry]

TV 3 just reported that someone tried to take out electrical pylons with explosives.

[Ricardo]

I'll tell who I believe stands to gain is Gneral Anupong, Prem Tinsulanonda and General Prayath.

They stand to gain by taking power away from elected politicians such as Abhisit and Thaksin and putting it in there own hands.

I don't see how the Anupong or Prayuth benefit here. They are both disgraced, similar to Abhisit. Do you think they wanted to turn on Abhisit, kill redshirts, and then make a deal with redshirts who very well may run the next government? Would the redshirts accept this? I don't follow the logic.

I don't think they want to make any deals with redshirts or anyone else for that matter they want power for themselves I would also include the NPP in this group with their idea for a 70 % appointed parliament.

They want to take power from the electorate and put it in the hands of the armath.

With respect, I think General Anupong could have his own little coup, any time he really wanted to take power. He doesn't have to be this devious. And General Prem is surely a very old man, hardly up for power-games on his own account, as you believe.

[chantorn]

Agree its quite clear the red guards were armed I believe these are red guards in the photo's I don't deny this but look at this video http:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src

And tell me who are the red guards shooting at in the window?

If the third hand is the black clad men mingling among the reds then who is in the window?

I don't know. A black clad man that was previously mingling with the crowds? A third force? A military sniper? A paid instigator? A redshirt guard? A psychotic killer out for kicks? PAD? A former soldier? It could be anyone, and we'll probably never know.

I didn't see anyone in the window, but it appears in the video that people did as they were using lasers to locate the window.

Who was shooting at the window?

According to the redshirt leaders they are a peaceful and unarmed gathering.

Lasers were also used to locate the Commanding Officer of the operation for an assassination. It proves nothing, obviously as anyone can pick these lasers up anywhere for a couple hundred baht.

Your right it doesn't prove anything, and I don't believe the reds for one second saying they were unarmed of course they were armed. But what I don't buy is that red guards were blowing the heads off red protesters.

BBC correspondent Vaudine England

"That idea - of a mysterious "third hand" - usually accuses a wayward major general of provoking violence through unexplained grenade tossings or shootings.

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said he had issued orders for soldiers to be equipped only with shields, batons and tear gas.

"They were unarmed, so some of them were killed," he said.

This conflicts with reports from a BBC correspondent on the scene who saw soldiers carrying and shooting high velocity guns. "

full article here

There can only be 1 truth. Eith Suthep or BBC correspondent is lieing.

IMHO, I think Khao San Backpacker aka BBC correspondent is lieing. He has nothing to loose.

Suthep is a dupty PM, he has too much to loose if he lie.

[britmaveric]

^chantorn - you know govts do lie, it is their nature. Take credit when things go right and try to cover-up when things go wrong (CYA).

Edited April 13, 2010 by britmaveric

[chantorn]

http://fightorwaittogetkill.wordpress.com/

Also from the same source.

The man in black (army t-shirt inside) with the rifler has a very high and large Farang nose.

The 3 ASTV picture (monk/army boy) have a very flat Thai nose.

[tracymeaw]

And a max range over 3500 meters.. the perfect weapon to fire live rounds over peoples heads in an urban environment.. if you are taking orders from Abhisit that is. I also noticed in the French video that the army was using both M16's and TAR-21's to fire live rounds at the redshirts.

A range of 3500m (3.5km) from an M16A1?? NO WAY! As mentioned in my post above, an M16A1 has an effective range of 300+m. An A2 can go further with 400m.

Anyways, the way the soldiers are shooting seemed more like fire suppression than taking out individual targets. At least I wont shoot like this when I'm taking out targets individually.

I was thinking M16A2 and I said max range not effective.. which would be 500 for individual point targets and 800 for area targets. Page 4, TM9-1005-319-10... which I'm holding in my hand.

Nice text book specs. Try taking down an individual human target at 500m with iron sights at a skirmish enviroment with an A2. Whoever can do that gets my respect. What I mentioned was off-my-head specs, which is what the soldiers are drilled with. Effective range is all that matters; range whereby you can use yr rifle, not hoping for stray rounds to reach someone somewhere somehow.

Chill and cheers!

Yeah. books are for stupid people! No worries, if you read my post though you might have gotten my point. That it was stupid to give them clearance to fire live rounds over heads *with a weapon with MAX range over 3500 meters* in the city. But then again, it appears the Army snipers being up high in the buildings thought that that was an acceptable interpretation of `firing live rounds over heads` as well!

[Jerrytheyoung]

^chantorn - you know govts do lie, it is their nature. Take credit when things go right and try to cover-up when things go wrong (CYA).

She loves Mark, so Mark cannot lie....

[tracymeaw]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/u...ticle6942041.ab

This is the video from the dead japan cameraman. Is it only in my fantasy I see black men in the red crowd about 39-40 seconds inte the clip. Thdey show up in the left for 2 seconds.

Looks like 2 or 3 Army grabbing up their injured and seveal compacinate redshirts flagging down a rescue vehicle... but thats just me.

Here is an interesting vid of an eye witness to the Hiro Muramoto shooting. death.http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-431494

[chantorn]

^chantorn - you know govts do lie, it is their nature. Take credit when things go right and try to cover-up when things go wrong (CYA).

I was just being playful. I was just kidding In Thai we call it "Pla chot" which mean intentionally saying the reverse.

Who would trust the SOB Suthep.

However Mark is different. He is very creditable, to me at least. And handsome too. I know he won't last very long now, which is a pity. But rules are rules, and most likely Democrates will be dissolved soon.

Edited April 13, 2010 by chantorn

[way2muchcoffee]

The Nation has some interesting commentary on Saturday night's events. Granted, The Nation is well-known for having a pro-government bias, and Thanong gets it wrong quite often, but if true, these articles paint a very interesting and rather disturbing picture. These are serious allegations.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2010/04/13/entry-1

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...m-30127095.html

Also consider, but do not discuss, how Kasit's surprising statements figure into the whole situation.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Ministe...ll-t355955.html

Edited April 13, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[plazot11]

I have a suggestion. Revoke all bail on those previously charged. Give them, and the other leaders of the insurrection 3 days to present themselves. Then charge them with treason. I include Thaksin as a leader.

If they don't show up within 3 days, do one of 2 things.

1/ Issue orders for them to be shot on sight, and declare anybody in the vicinity and/or assisting them will be considered aiding and abetting and equally guilty.

OR

2/ issue bounty warrants of B1,000,000 per leader and B10,000,000 for Thaksin. make it clear that no questions will be asked if they are worse for wear, up to and including dead.

For anybody who has ever doubted the motivation of Red Shirts, gf's family firmly believe a payment of B100,000 will be received by every family that contributed to Thaksins re-instatement. If the motivation is money, use it against them.

OzMick You are no dickum aussie you are a fraud. Your aptness to render such myopic presupposition interpolations is clear evidence you are nothing but someones pawn being used to incite murder and the assinations of political figures which is deemed a terrorist action. OzMick a terrorist inciter

[tracymeaw]

From an International news reporting agency a direct quote that their correspondents saw "army soldiers carrying and shooting high velocity rifles".

An M16, standard army issue, is a high velocity rifle at 2800 feet/second so they're correct in that every soldier were carrying high velocity rifles.

And a max range over 3500 meters.. the perfect weapon to fire live rounds over peoples heads in an urban environment.. if you are taking orders from Abhisit that is. I also noticed in the French video that the army was using both M16's and TAR-21's to fire live rounds at the redshirts.

What evidence do you have from the video that the soldiers were firing "live rounds"?

On the otherhand, rubber bullets must be fired at the protesters to have an effect,

so I assume they were rubber bullets (but I have no evidence)

there are several vids that discuss the live rounds.. already proven to be true. Help yourself: http://www.ireport.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=420484

Also, this vid shows a very lucky resdhirt at 2:22.. enjoy.

[TheOldWolf]

Why should Suthep lie? He knows that the whole world knows that the army was armed, but had order only to use rubber bullets or shot in the air. I am not a fan of his, but I think he is wrong quoted or there been a missunderstanding.

[mrparanoid]

And the gun is clearly a M16/M4 or derivative, not a sniper-rifle etc. (Due to the CQB distances this assault rifle will do just fine for the purpose of causing damage and confusion or take out non-vital opponents.)

The second guy is most likely carrying an L85. Cannot see if it is an A1 or A2.

Looks more like a SAR-21 to me. And the other one is a M16 or a M4A1. All weapons are Thai army weapons. Both these guys have 2-3 weapons each. Looks to me like these are just red shirt guards or "black warriors" as Seh Daeng calls them carrying weapons that soldiers have dropped. I don't see any suppressor or handguns or radios or bag full of grenades as another poster (not tawp) suggests..

[Sunderland]

http://fightorwaittogetkill.wordpress.com/

Also from the same source.

The man in black (army t-shirt inside) with the rifler has a very high and large Farang nose.

The 3 ASTV picture (monk/army boy) have a very flat Thai nose.

A farang nose? Haha. Care to define a farang nose?

He looks more like someone of Middle Eastern origin to me.

[mrparanoid]

From an International news reporting agency a direct quote that their correspondents saw "army soldiers carrying and shooting high velocity rifles".

An M16, standard army issue, is a high velocity rifle at 2800 feet/second so they're correct in that every soldier were carrying high velocity rifles.

And a max range over 3500 meters.. the perfect weapon to fire live rounds over peoples heads in an urban environment.. if you are taking orders from Abhisit that is. I also noticed in the French video that the army was using both M16's and TAR-21's to fire live rounds at the redshirts.

Certainly looks like a TAR-21, but I don't think the Thai Army has stared using them yet. I think they still use the SAR-21..

[whiterussian]

I wonder where fugitives go in Thailand?

I imagine them in some remote hill tribe village setting.

Scary people out there.

[TheOldWolf]

And the gun is clearly a M16/M4 or derivative, not a sniper-rifle etc. (Due to the CQB distances this assault rifle will do just fine for the purpose of causing damage and confusion or take out non-vital opponents.)

The second guy is most likely carrying an L85. Cannot see if it is an A1 or A2.

Looks more like a SAR-21 to me. And the other one is a M16 or a M4A1. All weapons are Thai army weapons. Both these guys have 2-3 weapons each. Looks to me like these are just red shirt guards or "black warriors" as Seh Daeng calls them carrying weapons that soldiers have dropped. I don't see any suppressor or handguns or radios or bag full of grenades as another poster (not tawp) suggests..

"The terrorists the government claimed [were there] are soldiers who do not accept the current administration, causing conflict within the army," Mr Natthawut said.

"They used the opportunity on Saturday to create unrest."

He did not identify them, or offer to help with their arrest."

This is from another English newspaper in BKK

Seh Daeng?