Anger And Agony Remain As Red-Shirts Abandon Phan Fa

[bkkjames]

half the population?

there are maybe 25,000 protesters in Bangkok out of a country of 65 million?

hardly a representative proportion

also if ''they're over half the population'', where were they the last time a vote was taken?

they did not get anywhere near half the votes that were cast

There is also some 400 people representing the 65 millions in parliament. Or like in any country with general elections who they really serve is in question the moment they are elected...

The 25000 have their families, friends and villages in their support. To deny that simple fact like you do is proving a lack of understanding of the situation.

What I find interesting is the reds had a perfect opportunity to rally the masses this songkran with so many days off for so many.

Could have trucked all of Issan into town but chose not too.

Begs the question, days off with family and friends having fun or fighting for democracy? It appears 500 baht doesn't go as far these days.

[animatic]

""If they want to clear us out of [Rajprasong intersection] too then we'll bring the whole country to ruin - end of story," said a woman, anger in her eyes.

"I don't know who [the men in black] are but I thank them for without them, many red shirts would have been killed," she said."

Seems that she has no doubts whatsoever.

If she doesn't know who they are, how does she know they didn't kill red shirts? At least muslims promise their martyrs 72 virgins, what to the red shirts expect to get to die for a rich old fool.

...matyrs (are) promised 72 virgins.....wow!

where do we farangs sign up....

those in thailand are getting too expensive and hard to find...especially virgins!.

Muslim suicide bombers in Britain are set to begin a three-day strike on Monday in a dispute over the number of virgins they are entitled to in the afterlife.

Emergency talks with Al Qaeda management have so far failed to produce an agreement.

The unrest began last Tuesday when Al Qaeda announced that the number of virgins a suicide bomber would receive after his death will be cut by 25% next January from 72 to only 60. The rationale for the cut was the increase in recent years of the number of suicide bombings and a subsequent shortage of virgins in the afterlife.

The suicide bombers' union, the British Organization of Occupational Martyrs (or B.O.O.M.) responded with a statement that this was unacceptable to its members and immediately balloted for strike action. General Secretary Abdullah Amir told the press, "Our members are literally working themselves to death in the cause of Jihad. We don't ask for much in return but to be treated like this by management is a kick in the teeth."

Mr. Amir accepted the limited availability of virgins but pointed out that the cutbacks were expected to be borne entirely by the workforce and not by management. "Last Christmas Abu Hamza alone was awarded an annual bonus of 250,000 virgins," complains Amir. "And you can be sure they'll all be pretty ones too. How can Al Qaeda afford that for members of the management but not 72 for the people who do the real work?"

Speaking from the shed in the West Midlands in which he currently resides, Al Qaeda chief executive Osama bin Laden explained, "We sympathize with our workers' concerns but Al Qaeda is simply not in a position to meet their demands. They are simply not accepting the realities of modern-day jihad, in a competitive marketplace. Thanks to Western depravity, there is now a chronic shortage of virgins in the afterlife. It's a straight choice between reducing expenditure and laying people off. I don't like cutting wages but I'd hate to have to tell 3,000 of my staff that they won't be able to blow themselves up." He defended management bonuses by claiming these were necessary to attract good, fanatical clerics. "How am I supposed to attract the best people if I can't compete with the private sector?" asked Mr. Bin-Laden.

Talks broke down this morning after management's last-ditch proposal of a virgin-sharing scheme was rejected outright after a failure to agree on orifice allocation quotas. One virgin, who refused to be named, was quoted as saying "I'll be b****red if I'm agreeing to anything like that........it's too much to swallow".

Unless some sort of agreement is reached over the weekend, suicide bombers will down explosives at midday on Monday. Most branches are supporting the strike. Only the North London branch, which has a different union, is likely to continue working. However, some members of that branch will only be using waist-down explosives in order to express solidarity with their striking brethren.

Spokespersons in the North East of England, Swindon, North Kent and the entire Australian continent stated that this would not affect their operations as "There are no virgins in their areas anyway".

Virgins are WAY over rated.

Except as sacrifices to the volcano gods.

[Jingthing]

I am a portion of the red activists are sincere in their protest actions (and not only there for the money). That still does not give them the right to dictate governmental change through violence and intimidation for only their way, ignoring the rest of the country. Elections were already scheduled. In a democracy, you wait for elections. That's it.

It isn't easy. It can be very frustrating. Believe me, I know. Had to wait 8 long years to boot out the party of George W Bush.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Jingthing

[blackman]

though it was a 2000 baht fine for dropping litter in bangkok. there is allot of litter there

send the clean up bill to the Phua Thai party

they made the mess, they paid for the red protesters to be there

let them pay the bill to clean up after them

no, that would be too reasonable a request to even bother asking them

just let the taxpayer foot the bill, like they will have to pay for all the other shit the reds leave behind

[bkkjames]

though it was a 2000 baht fine for dropping litter in bangkok. there is allot of litter there

send the clean up bill to the Phua Thai party

they made the mess, they paid for the red protesters to be there

let them pay the bill to clean up after them

no, that would be too reasonable a request to even bother asking them

just let the taxpayer foot the bill, like they will have to pay for all the other shit the reds leave behind

Not just the cleanup the 46 billion baht should be handed out in the form of tax relief to every bangkok citizen to make up for the stress, loss of business, damage to property etc etc. No way the BMA and normal people who live in bangkok should have to carry this burden.

[animatic]

half the population?

there are maybe 25,000 protesters in Bangkok out of a country of 65 million?

hardly a representative proportion

also if ''they're over half the population'', where were they the last time a vote was taken?

they did not get anywhere near half the votes that were cast

There is also some 400 people representing the 65 millions in parliament. Or like in any country with general elections who they really serve is in question the moment they are elected...

The 25000 have their families, friends and villages in their support. To deny that simple fact like you do is proving a lack of understanding of the situation.

it must be just me then who thinks that a few red shirt bullies are trying to seize a country by intimidation?

if they had so much support and had control of parliament, maybe with the help of a few coalition groups and ultimately had enough votes and parliamentary seats then they would legitamately hold power wouldn't they?

oh sorry i am getting you boys mixed up with the current government....

LOL, now that is a clear eyed view of things LOL

[TAWP]

PS in your haste, you actually wrote something good that he did do. I was there before, during and after, and believe me, it was money well spent!

I think his point wasn't that Chiang Mai didn't improve from this upgrade, but that to fixate on a few regions/villages and ignore others [where the people did not vote for him] isn't very statesman like.

It's the behavior of a petty child.

[truthfulfox]

""If they want to clear us out of [Rajprasong intersection] too then we'll bring the whole country to ruin - end of story," said a woman, anger in her eyes.

"I don't know who [the men in black] are but I thank them for without them, many red shirts would have been killed," she said."

Seems that she has no doubts whatsoever.

If she doesn't know who they are, how does she know they didn't kill red shirts? At least muslims promise their martyrs 72 virgins, what to the red shirts expect to get to die for a rich old fool.

your comment is funny but true

[chadintheusa]

half the population?

there are maybe 25,000 protesters in Bangkok out of a country of 65 million?

hardly a representative proportion

also if ''they're over half the population'', where were they the last time a vote was taken?

they did not get anywhere near half the votes that were cast

There is also some 400 people representing the 65 millions in parliament. Or like in any country with general elections who they really serve is in question the moment they are elected...

The 25000 have their families, friends and villages in their support. To deny that simple fact like you do is proving a lack of understanding of the situation.

So by your logic if the Yellow's can gather 30,000 protesters then we should consider that a win for them. If the most number of protester is how we vote then put it in the constitution and that's how we'll decide the next election. Deal?

[fruittbatt]

With the red zone consolidated downtown what a perfect opportunity to cut off their khao by refusing entry to food and drink vendors, and shutting down food suppliers in the vicinity. I predict a mass exodus would occur within 3-4 hours

[elcent]

With the red zone consolidated downtown what a perfect opportunity to cut off their khao by refusing entry to food and drink vendors, and shutting down food suppliers in the vicinity. I predict a mass exodus would occur within 3-4 hours

No, this would be the most dangerous thing to do and if some try that, food supply to all of Bangkok could be stopped by using various means.

Please get real and don't resort to stupid arguments. Your Villa and Foodland, or any other department-stores could be shut down in no time.

[danc]

I am a portion of the red activists are sincere in their protest actions (and not only there for the money). That still does not give them the right to dictate governmental change through violence and intimidation for only their way, ignoring the rest of the country. Elections were already scheduled. In a democracy, you wait for elections. That's it.

It isn't easy. It can be very frustrating. Believe me, I know. Had to wait 8 long years to boot out the party of George W Bush.

It seems optimistic and even a bit naive to suggest that we yet are dealing with a democracy here in Thailand. We are indeed emerging into a society that is diverging from the status quo of the last hundred years and that society might well have some nascent democratic leanings, but to label it as democratic in the western sense shows little sensibility towards Thailand's current, unique set of problems. Indeed to suggest that one should wait 8 years to change leaders or the course of a government, as one did in the States, is both disingenuous and could even be read as patronizing.

The army couped in 2006 because they could not wait, the yellows occupied an international airport at the absolute height of the tourist season and now the reds occupy central BKK, all because they cannot wait. In the end, and by that one means a good few years the process of change through the ballot box will become part of the fabric of this society if the Thais decide that is what they want, but these very examples of civil unrest highlight how long and winding that road will be will be. To, out of the blue, apply "you should wait til polling day" mantras to today's crisis, when those involved on the protestors' side saw what happened over the last 4 years to those that took the law into their own hands through things like the airport occupation, is never going to wash. It smacks of double standards, a point that the western media picks up very clearly and puts over to their readership, free of the constraints of local interference and censorship.

It somehow leaves that horrible taste of a NGO when one suggests that this is how it done in the west, so that model can be blanket-applied elsewhere.

but What do I know?

[Puccini]

From "Bangkok Red-Shirt Rally - Live Thursday, THURSDAY APRIL 15"

The redshirt leader then presented Manop to members of the media, saying that the redshirt guard had seized weapons from soldiers and was taking them over to display on the Phan Fa stage - not the Khok Wua intersection or the Satri Witthaya School intersection as alleged.

If Manop had nothing to hide, why did he cover his face with that kind of mask in 35 degree heat when he went about with a rifle in his hands?

[britmaveric]

^If he was that concerned about concealment why wouldnt he use the mask?

[fruittbatt]

With the red zone consolidated downtown what a perfect opportunity to cut off their khao by refusing entry to food and drink vendors, and shutting down food suppliers in the vicinity. I predict a mass exodus would occur within 3-4 hours

No, this would be the most dangerous thing to do and if some try that, food supply to all of Bangkok could be stopped by using various means.

Please get real and don't resort to stupid arguments. Your Villa and Foodland, or any other department-stores could be shut down in no time.

Don't quite get the logic of your claims here...certainly I was being a little facetious, but if a cordon was placed around the Red Zone preventing entry of food supplies i think this would help put an end to the paralysis of the downtown hub by a bunch of paid thugs.

[Jingthing]

I am a portion of the red activists are sincere in their protest actions (and not only there for the money). That still does not give them the right to dictate governmental change through violence and intimidation for only their way, ignoring the rest of the country. Elections were already scheduled. In a democracy, you wait for elections. That's it.

It isn't easy. It can be very frustrating. Believe me, I know. Had to wait 8 long years to boot out the party of George W Bush.

It seems optimistic and even a bit naive to suggest that we yet are dealing with a democracy here in Thailand. We are indeed emerging into a society that is diverging from the status quo of the last hundred years and that society might well have some nascent democratic leanings, but to label it as democratic in the western sense shows little sensibility towards Thailand's current, unique set of problems. Indeed to suggest that one should wait 8 years to change leaders or the course of a government, as one did in the States, is both disingenuous and could even be read as patronizing.

The army couped in 2006 because they could not wait, the yellows occupied an international airport at the absolute height of the tourist season and now the reds occupy central BKK, all because they cannot wait. In the end, and by that one means a good few years the process of change through the ballot box will become part of the fabric of this society if the Thais decide that is what they want, but these very examples of civil unrest highlight how long and winding that road will be will be. To, out of the blue, apply "you should wait til polling day" mantras to today's crisis, when those involved on the protestors' side saw what happened over the last 4 years to those that took the law into their own hands through things like the airport occupation, is never going to wash. It smacks of double standards, a point that the western media picks up very clearly and puts over to their readership, free of the constraints of local interference and censorship.

It somehow leaves that horrible taste of a NGO when one suggests that this is how it done in the west, so that model can be blanket-applied elsewhere.

but What do I know?

Fair enough. Protest for change. But don't break the law, don't ruin the lives of the city you protest in, no terrorism or terrorists threats, and no violence. The reds have failed the test.

[britmaveric]

Don't quite get the logic of your claims here...certainly I was being a little facetious, but if a cordon was placed around the Red Zone preventing entry of food supplies i think this would help put an end to the paralysis of the downtown hub by a bunch of paid thugs.

Plenty of food available in the malls mate?

[fruittbatt]

Don't quite get the logic of your claims here...certainly I was being a little facetious, but if a cordon was placed around the Red Zone preventing entry of food supplies i think this would help put an end to the paralysis of the downtown hub by a bunch of paid thugs.

Plenty of food available in the malls mate?

Malls closed, mate?

[chadintheusa]

With the red zone consolidated downtown what a perfect opportunity to cut off their khao by refusing entry to food and drink vendors, and shutting down food suppliers in the vicinity. I predict a mass exodus would occur within 3-4 hours

No, this would be the most dangerous thing to do and if some try that, food supply to all of Bangkok could be stopped by using various means.

Please get real and don't resort to stupid arguments. Your Villa and Foodland, or any other department-stores could be shut down in no time.

Don't quite get the logic of your claims here...certainly I was being a little facetious, but if a cordon was placed around the Red Zone preventing entry of food supplies i think this would help put an end to the paralysis of the downtown hub by a bunch of paid thugs.

At least they'd be contained and unable to harass and terrorize people who are outside the immediate area, which would be a small improvement.

[chadintheusa]

"Fugitive ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra is believed to be staying in a South Pacific country after visiting Saudi Arabia earlier this week."

Wonder if his latest trip gave him any ideas on how a democracy should be run. I guess we can always hope that he will end up on the island from Lost and be unable to leave it.

[anotherpeter]

Don't quite get the logic of your claims here...certainly I was being a little facetious, but if a cordon was placed around the Red Zone preventing entry of food supplies i think this would help put an end to the paralysis of the downtown hub by a bunch of paid thugs.

Plenty of food available in the malls mate?

Malls closed, mate?

They wouldn't be for long if the reds had their "peaceful and democratic" way.

[Slip]

From "Bangkok Red-Shirt Rally - Live Thursday, THURSDAY APRIL 15"

The redshirt leader then presented Manop to members of the media, saying that the redshirt guard had seized weapons from soldiers and was taking them over to display on the Phan Fa stage - not the Khok Wua intersection or the Satri Witthaya School intersection as alleged.

If Manop had nothing to hide, why did he cover his face with that kind of mask in 35 degree heat when he went about with a rifle in his hands?

However, if Manop had something to hide (which no doubt he did), why did he make SUCH a piss poor job of covering it?

[way2muchcoffee]

From "Bangkok Red-Shirt Rally - Live Thursday, THURSDAY APRIL 15"

The redshirt leader then presented Manop to members of the media, saying that the redshirt guard had seized weapons from soldiers and was taking them over to display on the Phan Fa stage - not the Khok Wua intersection or the Satri Witthaya School intersection as alleged.

If Manop had nothing to hide, why did he cover his face with that kind of mask in 35 degree heat when he went about with a rifle in his hands?

However, if Manop had something to hide (which no doubt he did), why did he make SUCH a piss poor job of covering it?

Because he was hot and trying to get some fresh air?

[danc]

I am a portion of the red activists are sincere in their protest actions (and not only there for the money). That still does not give them the right to dictate governmental change through violence and intimidation for only their way, ignoring the rest of the country. Elections were already scheduled. In a democracy, you wait for elections. That's it.

It isn't easy. It can be very frustrating. Believe me, I know. Had to wait 8 long years to boot out the party of George W Bush.

It seems optimistic and even a bit naive to suggest that we yet are dealing with a democracy here in Thailand. We are indeed emerging into a society that is diverging from the status quo of the last hundred years and that society might well have some nascent democratic leanings, but to label it as democratic in the western sense shows little sensibility towards Thailand's current, unique set of problems. Indeed to suggest that one should wait 8 years to change leaders or the course of a government, as one did in the States, is both disingenuous and could even be read as patronizing.

The army couped in 2006 because they could not wait, the yellows occupied an international airport at the absolute height of the tourist season and now the reds occupy central BKK, all because they cannot wait. In the end, and by that one means a good few years the process of change through the ballot box will become part of the fabric of this society if the Thais decide that is what they want, but these very examples of civil unrest highlight how long and winding that road will be will be. To, out of the blue, apply "you should wait til polling day" mantras to today's crisis, when those involved on the protestors' side saw what happened over the last 4 years to those that took the law into their own hands through things like the airport occupation, is never going to wash. It smacks of double standards, a point that the western media picks up very clearly and puts over to their readership, free of the constraints of local interference and censorship.

It somehow leaves that horrible taste of a NGO when one suggests that this is how it done in the west, so that model can be blanket-applied elsewhere.

but What do I know?

Fair enough. Protest for change. But don't break the law, don't ruin the lives of the city you protest in, no terrorism or terrorists threats, and no violence. The reds have failed the test.

Indeed, the red have failed the test - they have overstepped the mark with their invective and behaviour but against whose standard does one judge them - against an army that puts to the streets in 2006, against a movement that put brought the country to its knees in 2008? This surely is the point, there are no laws, no standards, because here in Thailand everything is simply ignored if it suits, from drink driving to vote buying, everything - if the laws are such that they are meaningless, then they are precisely that - meaning of nothing.

[tigermonkey]

Don't quite get the logic of your claims here...certainly I was being a little facetious, but if a cordon was placed around the Red Zone preventing entry of food supplies i think this would help put an end to the paralysis of the downtown hub by a bunch of paid thugs.

Plenty of food available in the malls mate?

Malls closed, mate?

Yes, great idea ! No food or water for the red protestors -- and don't provide medical care either>

After about 2,000 die from the heat and starvation -- maybe the reds will all give up.

.. but it could take 5,000 deaths . I really don't know.

Sounds more like Burma every day.

That should really look good for Thailand, and its international image. ...and K. Abhisit can add it to his CV when he looks for a new job.

[Jingthing]

I think cordoning is a good idea. It is now an illegal protest. Have the food and water available at the border on leaving, where the illegal protesters can be fed, watered, fined/arrested, and/or sent home. And not allowed back in until the area is cleared. WHY NOT? Thailand is about to enter a civil war due to these insurgents who have been offered peace talks numerous talks now, and refuse. Otherwise, anarchy and inevitable war.

If some of them CHOOSE to deny themselves food and water voluntarily, that is their free will choice but nobody would be forcing them to do that as the food and water would be available for free a few minutes away. Why is this not humane? Nobody forced them to illegally occupy this key commercial site, did they?

Edited April 15, 2010 by Jingthing

[animatic]

I think cordoning is a good idea. It is now an illegal protest. Have the food and water available at the border on leaving, where the illegal protesters can be fed, watered, fined/arrested, and/or sent home. And not allowed back in until the area is cleared. WHY NOT? Thailand is about to enter a civil war due to these insurgents who have been offered peace talks numerous talks now, and refuse. Otherwise, anarchy and inevitable war.

If some of them CHOOSE to deny themselves food and water voluntarily, that is their free will choice but nobody would be forcing them to do that as the food and water would be available for free a few minutes away. Why is this not humane? Nobody forced them to illegally occupy this key commercial site, did they?

It may be the only viable choice left.

Let them do a HUNGER STRIKE as their other choice.

OK folks finish what you got slowly,

because no more is coming in till you leave.

[Neurath]

I think cordoning is a good idea. It is now an illegal protest. Have the food and water available at the border on leaving, where the illegal protesters can be fed, watered, fined/arrested, and/or sent home. And not allowed back in until the area is cleared. WHY NOT? Thailand is about to enter a civil war due to these insurgents who have been offered peace talks numerous talks now, and refuse. Otherwise, anarchy and inevitable war.

If some of them CHOOSE to deny themselves food and water to themselves voluntarily, that is their free will choice but nobody would be forcing them to do that as the food and water would be available for free a few minutes away. Why is this not humane? Nobody forced them to illegally occupy this key commercial site, did they?

Of all the things such actions might accomplish, averting a civil war or more civil disturbance ain't among them.

The legitimate aspirations that many of the red shirts have (I don't include here Jatuporn, Nattawut, Arisman et. al.) must be addressed and seen to be understood. As this situation arises out of a perceived crisis of legitimacy (going back 5 years) there is no way that force can solve it for the simple reason that application of force will be seen to have no legitimacy. This does not mean that threats, intimidation and outright violence on the part of the reds should be tolerated or go unpunished.

[Jingthing]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

[Neurath]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.