Changing Condominium Management Companies

[Delight]

The Developer contracted to manage the building for the 1st 3 years. At the end of that contract is a vote required(by the Co-Owners) to change to a new provider-given that this will change the manager?

[scorecard]

I make several points:

- You can do very little without the consent of the co-owners, however some things can be done by the consent of the majority of the elected committee. This is all spelled out in clear detail in the English language version of the appropriate regulations. The book can be purchased, inexpensive, at many bookshops and at 'Land & House' offices. It's worth getting a copy.

- It's unwise to do anything outside of the regulations. There is a government office which does random audits of the committee / juristic person actions and documents. Our condo committee do everything strictly to the regulations. We have been 'audited' several times. Every time they gave us a scolding about very very tiny errors on documents.

- Before appointing a new 'management company' can I suggest you look at the following points:

-

• Do you really need it, can the committee and the juristic person plus a manager (employed by a decision of the committe) handle the situation? In fact 12 months ago we sacked the outside management company. The monthly fee for the management company plus the salary of the manager they appointed was about 70.000Baht a month. The management company provided no value whatever, were unprofessional in their work, when they conducted (moderated) six monthly / yearly owners meetings their work was seriously and regularly challenged by the owners and they did nothing to improve their act whatever. Plus the manager they appointed was totally incapable and allowed the lobby staff / the office staff / the security / the technical services into an on the job party and we're still trying to sort that out.
  

Edited April 18, 2010 by scorecard

[hhgz]

Just to be sure you understand, there is a difference between a "condo management company", and a "condo manager" (a person).

[scorecard]

Just to be sure you understand, there is a difference between a "condo management company", and a "condo manager" (a person).

Thanks, yes I do realize this point.

[123ace]

The self management option is only going to work if you have a retired local or retired farang prepared to take on this responsibilty. It seems fine in concept, but just wait until times become testing and the situation will rapidly change.

Also a strong willed local or farang may not be what all the co-owners want. The oppotunity for corruption and self interet in decisiosns made at manager level is consdierable, and without an independent committee (from the manager and likely the Juristic Person) this is further complicated.

Look at it like a three legged chair. Take away one leg and evantually it fails.

To the OP - consider an EGM, this needs 15 days notice, 20% of co-owners are required to request an EGM and attendance by 25% of co-owners, with the majority voting in favor. If you are not happy with the management company and others agree with you, simply change it.

[Delight]

I make several points:

- You can do very little without the consent of the co-owners, however some things can be done by the consent of the majority of the elected committee. This is all spelled out in clear detail in the English language version of the appropriate regulations. The book can be purchased, inexpensive, at many bookshops and at 'Land & House' offices. It's worth getting a copy.

- It's unwise to do anything outside of the regulations. There is a government office which does random audits of the committee / juristic person actions and documents. Our condo committee do everything strictly to the regulations. We have been 'audited' several times. Every time they gave us a scolding about very very tiny errors on documents.

- Before appointing a new 'management company' can I suggest you look at the following points:

-

• Do you really need it, can the committee and the juristic person plus a manager (employed by a decision of the committe) handle the situation? In fact 12 months ago we sacked the outside management company. The monthly fee for the management company plus the salary of the manager they appointed was about 70.000Baht a month. The management company provided no value whatever, were unprofessional in their work, when they conducted (moderated) six monthly / yearly owners meetings their work was seriously and regularly challenged by the owners and they did nothing to improve their act whatever. Plus the manager they appointed was totally incapable and allowed the lobby staff / the office staff / the security / the technical services into an on the job party and we're still trying to sort that out.
  

Thank u very much for your several points. However ,do you have an answer to my question?

Edited April 19, 2010 by Delight

[123ace]

The management company can be changed at any time. The developer can only control this if they still own a large proportion or majority of units.

Don't be intimidated by the developer, who may be acting as committee, Juristic person and property managers. This happens.

Has an AGM been held? Is there a committee of Co-owners? is the chairman the developer? are you on the committee?

[Delight]

The management company can be changed at any time. The developer can only control this if they still own a large proportion or majority of units.

Don't be intimidated by the developer, who may be acting as committee, Juristic person and property managers. This happens.

Has an AGM been held? Is there a committee of Co-owners? is the chairman the developer? are you on the committee?

I deduce from your first statement that a vote is required?

We have had our First meeting-elected a committee. I chair the committee.This has all happened recently. The committee details will be registered at the Land Registry Office,shortly.

The developer currently controls everything. The co-owners simply pay a annual service fee(for a very average service).

The contract with the developer terminates later this year.

I sense that the co-owners will feel that they are entitled to vote to decide on the continuation of the present arrangement or to use an alternative approach.

From what u imply this is a prerequisite for change

Thanks for your input

[123ace]

The committee can make this change of PM without a co-owner vote. But it requires a majoirty vote in favour by the committe, so an issue is how many votes on the committee does the developer have?

What percentage of the builing is unsold and who is the JPM?

You should get quotes from other PM providers first as they may not want to service the buidling anyway. Let me have an idea of how many units and I can tell you how much reputable firms would charge.

As I mentioned previously, I strongly advise against self managing as this is only a short term fix adopted by newbies.

Where is the bldg? You may not want to disclose what bldg it is, but if you can subtly indicate the bldg and the developer some of us can advise you more. The developer must have a reason for wanting to control the bldg and this needs taking in to account. I doubt it is to make a profit from mgt fees in reality.

[Delight]

The committee can make this change of PM without a co-owner vote. But it requires a majoirty vote in favour by the committe, so an issue is how many votes on the committee does the developer have?

What percentage of the builing is unsold and who is the JPM?

You should get quotes from other PM providers first as they may not want to service the buidling anyway. Let me have an idea of how many units and I can tell you how much reputable firms would charge.

As I mentioned previously, I strongly advise against self managing as this is only a short term fix adopted by newbies.

Where is the bldg? You may not want to disclose what bldg it is, but if you can subtly indicate the bldg and the developer some of us can advise you more. The developer must have a reason for wanting to control the bldg and this needs taking in to account. I doubt it is to make a profit from mgt fees in reality.

Thank u for your excellent response

The committee has 5 members 100% wish to change.

Non of the units are unsold. However there is a suspicion that may units were sold to farang via a Thai Company . These companies were supplied by the developer. The unsuspecting farang not realising that the majority of the Company voting rights remained with Thais that the developer controls.For this reason we wish to change without a Co Owner vote

37 units Cannot name the developer. We are in Pattaya . The building next door(which is now independant of the same developer) users a Management Company with success. Earlier attempts to manage using local Thais proved unsuccessful. We expect to pay about Baht 33K per month. for manager .JP and advisory services. The manager and JP to be jointly shared.The committee expects to oversee and measure all aspects of the Management companies work.

6 rooms to date(nearly 3 years) have not paid a single baht in service fees. These people are not keen to change.My question about the vote is motivated by the potential future response of these Non -Payers. They will look for any excuse not to pay .

As u say the developer will not make money-however our income is a contribution to his overheads.

So given the aforementioned ,would you suggest that we can change from developer(when his 3 year contract expires) to another provider without a Co-Owner vote?

[123ace]

The committee can make this change of PM without a co-owner vote. But it requires a majoirty vote in favour by the committe, so an issue is how many votes on the committee does the developer have?

What percentage of the builing is unsold and who is the JPM?

You should get quotes from other PM providers first as they may not want to service the buidling anyway. Let me have an idea of how many units and I can tell you how much reputable firms would charge.

As I mentioned previously, I strongly advise against self managing as this is only a short term fix adopted by newbies.

Where is the bldg? You may not want to disclose what bldg it is, but if you can subtly indicate the bldg and the developer some of us can advise you more. The developer must have a reason for wanting to control the bldg and this needs taking in to account. I doubt it is to make a profit from mgt fees in reality.

Thank u for your excellent response

The committee has 5 members 100% wish to change.

Non of the units are unsold. However there is a suspicion that may units were sold to farang via a Thai Company . These companies were supplied by the developer. The unsuspecting farang not realising that the majority of the Company voting rights remained with Thais that the developer controls.For this reason we wish to change without a Co Owner vote

37 units Cannot name the developer. We are in Pattaya . The building next door(which is now independant of the same developer) users a Management Company with success. Earlier attempts to manage using local Thais proved unsuccessful. We expect to pay about Baht 33K per month. for manager .JP and advisory services. The manager and JP to be jointly shared.The committee expects to oversee and measure all aspects of the Management companies work.

6 rooms to date(nearly 3 years) have not paid a single baht in service fees. These people are not keen to change.My question about the vote is motivated by the potential future response of these Non -Payers. They will look for any excuse not to pay .

As u say the developer will not make money-however our income is a contribution to his overheads.

So given the aforementioned ,would you suggest that we can change from developer(when his 3 year contract expires) to another provider without a Co-Owner vote?

I would change now to a new manager. There is no need to wait until the 3 years expires, unless you expect a nasty reaction by the developer.

The 33k per month sounds very low, and is for the indiviudual only (salary) by the sound of it. This will necessitate the committee effectively managing the building. I advise against combining the bldg mgr and the JPM as the same person, same company but different people is ok.

For the 6 rooms with unpaid dues, you can cut off their water and electricty supply and even bar access to building facilities. This is your only recourse in the short term.

It sounds like your mgt & service fees are too low, and the budget for mgt is falling too low. What is the CAM fee? these should be at least THB 5k per / unit, or THB 40 psm ++

[Delight]

The committee can make this change of PM without a co-owner vote. But it requires a majoirty vote in favour by the committe, so an issue is how many votes on the committee does the developer have?

What percentage of the builing is unsold and who is the JPM?

You should get quotes from other PM providers first as they may not want to service the buidling anyway. Let me have an idea of how many units and I can tell you how much reputable firms would charge.

As I mentioned previously, I strongly advise against self managing as this is only a short term fix adopted by newbies.

Where is the bldg? You may not want to disclose what bldg it is, but if you can subtly indicate the bldg and the developer some of us can advise you more. The developer must have a reason for wanting to control the bldg and this needs taking in to account. I doubt it is to make a profit from mgt fees in reality.

Thank u for your excellent response

The committee has 5 members 100% wish to change.

Non of the units are unsold. However there is a suspicion that may units were sold to farang via a Thai Company . These companies were supplied by the developer. The unsuspecting farang not realising that the majority of the Company voting rights remained with Thais that the developer controls.For this reason we wish to change without a Co Owner vote

37 units Cannot name the developer. We are in Pattaya . The building next door(which is now independant of the same developer) users a Management Company with success. Earlier attempts to manage using local Thais proved unsuccessful. We expect to pay about Baht 33K per month. for manager .JP and advisory services. The manager and JP to be jointly shared.The committee expects to oversee and measure all aspects of the Management companies work.

6 rooms to date(nearly 3 years) have not paid a single baht in service fees. These people are not keen to change.My question about the vote is motivated by the potential future response of these Non -Payers. They will look for any excuse not to pay .

As u say the developer will not make money-however our income is a contribution to his overheads.

So given the aforementioned ,would you suggest that we can change from developer(when his 3 year contract expires) to another provider without a Co-Owner vote?

I would change now to a new manager. There is no need to wait until the 3 years expires, unless you expect a nasty reaction by the developer.

The 33k per month sounds very low, and is for the indiviudual only (salary) by the sound of it. This will necessitate the committee effectively managing the building. I advise against combining the bldg mgr and the JPM as the same person, same company but different people is ok.

For the 6 rooms with unpaid dues, you can cut off their water and electricty supply and even bar access to building facilities. This is your only recourse in the short term.

It sounds like your mgt & service fees are too low, and the budget for mgt is falling too low. What is the CAM fee? these should be at least THB 5k per / unit, or THB 40 psm ++

Thanks again for your invaluable input

The fees are low becausse we combine with another sister building. Alone they would be nearer 60K /month. The manager and JP are different people. I am happy about the potential future,and given that fees have been paid to cover the 3 years,see no reason to sack the developer.

Just the issue of is a vote required or not.

CAM fees will be 40psm. A sinking fund will be required for future purposes.

The issue is not covered in the 2008 Act-just changing manager.

I sense that I am receiving good advise-yet no straight answer to my question.

[123ace]

The committee can make this change of PM without a co-owner vote. But it requires a majoirty vote in favour by the committe, so an issue is how many votes on the committee does the developer have?

What percentage of the builing is unsold and who is the JPM?

You should get quotes from other PM providers first as they may not want to service the buidling anyway. Let me have an idea of how many units and I can tell you how much reputable firms would charge.

As I mentioned previously, I strongly advise against self managing as this is only a short term fix adopted by newbies.

Where is the bldg? You may not want to disclose what bldg it is, but if you can subtly indicate the bldg and the developer some of us can advise you more. The developer must have a reason for wanting to control the bldg and this needs taking in to account. I doubt it is to make a profit from mgt fees in reality.

Thank u for your excellent response

The committee has 5 members 100% wish to change.

Non of the units are unsold. However there is a suspicion that may units were sold to farang via a Thai Company . These companies were supplied by the developer. The unsuspecting farang not realising that the majority of the Company voting rights remained with Thais that the developer controls.For this reason we wish to change without a Co Owner vote

37 units Cannot name the developer. We are in Pattaya . The building next door(which is now independant of the same developer) users a Management Company with success. Earlier attempts to manage using local Thais proved unsuccessful. We expect to pay about Baht 33K per month. for manager .JP and advisory services. The manager and JP to be jointly shared.The committee expects to oversee and measure all aspects of the Management companies work.

6 rooms to date(nearly 3 years) have not paid a single baht in service fees. These people are not keen to change.My question about the vote is motivated by the potential future response of these Non -Payers. They will look for any excuse not to pay .

As u say the developer will not make money-however our income is a contribution to his overheads.

So given the aforementioned ,would you suggest that we can change from developer(when his 3 year contract expires) to another provider without a Co-Owner vote?

I would change now to a new manager. There is no need to wait until the 3 years expires, unless you expect a nasty reaction by the developer.

The 33k per month sounds very low, and is for the indiviudual only (salary) by the sound of it. This will necessitate the committee effectively managing the building. I advise against combining the bldg mgr and the JPM as the same person, same company but different people is ok.

For the 6 rooms with unpaid dues, you can cut off their water and electricty supply and even bar access to building facilities. This is your only recourse in the short term.

It sounds like your mgt & service fees are too low, and the budget for mgt is falling too low. What is the CAM fee? these should be at least THB 5k per / unit, or THB 40 psm ++

Thanks again for your invaluable input

The fees are low becausse we combine with another sister building. Alone they would be nearer 60K /month. The manager and JP are different people. I am happy about the potential future,and given that fees have been paid to cover the 3 years,see no reason to sack the developer.

Just the issue of is a vote required or not.

CAM fees will be 40psm. A sinking fund will be required for future purposes.

The issue is not covered in the 2008 Act-just changing manager.

I sense that I am receiving good advise-yet no straight answer to my question.

Based on my understanding the committee can make this decision and does not require the co-owners to vote. An important aspect is not to increase the cost for the service involved in this change, this should clear any objection from the incument mgt co or from co-owners that may not agree. Good Luck.

[justcruisin]

Thanks again for your invaluable input

The fees are low becausse we combine with another sister building. Alone they would be nearer 60K /month. The manager and JP are different people. I am happy about the potential future,and given that fees have been paid to cover the 3 years,see no reason to sack the developer.

Just the issue of is a vote required or not.

CAM fees will be 40psm. A sinking fund will be required for future purposes.

The issue is not covered in the 2008 Act-just changing manager.

I sense that I am receiving good advise-yet no straight answer to my question.

The straight answer is yes.You need 25% of co-owners to form a quorum at a meeting and a miniumum of 50% of the attendess to vote in favor of changing the management company/juristic person.

I am the chair of a committee and the developers term is nearly up ,the advice of the land office was that they require this when the Juristic is replaced.

They also require the reciepts from the Post Office for the meeting notice with all the co-owners names to prove the actual meeting was held.

I am in Chiang Mai so maybe better to inquire at your local land office as interpretation may vary between provinces.

Just another thing,the manager can only do one term of two years,thats why it is better to have a seperate JP and manager.

The voting power of co-owners is based on % of area held and not on 1 unit 1 vote.

Hope this has been of some help to you.

[123ace]

The appointment of property manager is a committee decision and does not require co-owner voting. I agree that if you are in doubt or the action is provocative then check with the relevant land department.

The vote process described above is for an EGM, which may not be necessary in this case.