Top Army, Navy Units Readied For Red-Shirts Dispersal

[lannarebirth]

Even if Abhisit promised general elections in 6 months how much can he be trusted ?

a- He change his mind all the time . First army no live ammo , then have live ammo but only shoot in the air , then now we know for a fact some shot live bullets at innocent reds rank and file

b- He is not even in control himself . He reports to the army . he owes his job to them

Abhisit has made no promises on either the dissolution of the government or for a timeframe when new elections might be held, beyond those regularly scheduled for end of 2011 that is. He has made offers to radically cut the term of his government and move new elections well forward. All these concilliatory offers have been rejected outright. They are no longer on the table. The only thing curtailing his running out his full term is that his coalition partners are making vague rumblings about 6 months till new elections. Who knows what that means and who knows if they will feel the same way next week or next month. The Red Shirts should have taken the deal offered. Now they look pretty stupid and bloodthirsty and their motives for being so are easy to question.

[steveromagnino]

http://twitter.com/tulsathit

Thaksin has issued a statement declaring his allegiance to the monarchy and denouncing the stickers' makers (via nation news)

9 minutes ago via TweetDeck

Ah yes, the famous allegiance. 'some loyalty' i think is the word you are looking for.

This is EXACTLY as described by his former spokesman slash see muang (and Geriatric, you and I both know exactly what he meant when he said that, I agree this is an old school mindset that a fair few of them have of that era, so hardly specific to Thaksin, but there is not a question contextually See muang means gay in Thaksin's former statement).

2 min 30 he says it himself - hearsay of course but at no point has Thaksin ever denied what he said.

He has tried a bunch of different things for PR including different stances on this and many other subjects - some have worked, most have not. Like i said earlier in the thread, if he listened to wiser people telling him what to do and didn't think for himself, he would never have ended up in this position in the first place.

The reason why Chavalit and Somchai are appealing for royal intervention is another way to take out another brick; if it is positive then they have an ally; no comment and they claim privvy council interference in their rallies; negative and they have a serious shot at changing their strategy to go all out in a way they have only hinted at so far. They know....there will be no reply especially for a guy McCargo talks about in some depth as having suffered from the system that they claim exists as an extra constitutional power. Somchai is Thaksin's lakky brother in law whose family profited hugely from the TRT years....anything that moron has to say can be instantly dismissed as biased just as anything Chavalit ever says can usually be assumed to be either personal PR or deranged.

That's like expecting to read former house speaker Dr Arthit Urairat (the guy who did actually introduce universal healthcare to Thailand AFAIR) praising Thaksin for being a great humanatarian in today's BKK Post after Thaksin and Noppadol alledgedly personally shafted him to get hold of Phaya Thai hospital - you need to know the background to realise what is grandstanding and what is actually constructive.

Also, when you invoke the Chavalit rule (anything that can possibly go wrong for the country is most likely to occur when big jiew is involved) you realise that is it a total waste of time to ask for royal intervention using these two stooges. Dr Weng would be a better person. Or basically anyone. Paid academics; NGOs, whoever.

Anyone but the wannabe leader of PT and the brother in Law of Thaksin who didn't have too many issues with turning the heat up on the yellow shirts.

As for this whole yellow pejorative meaning. It is a western concept, and as with other western concepts such as the so called yellow peril, yellow face etc it is not entirely relevant to the discourse here, where yellow was not so long ago worn THROUGHOUT Thailand as a way to show respect and is the color for Monday.

Just as Red now has a meaning, but in the past was also worn I think Sunday and has meanings and popularity among the chinese community.

Incidentally, well pre coup, I had the privilege of discussion with some of the TRT inner circle, right at the beginning of PAD just winding up (late 2005) and it was whispered that the fortune tellers had told Thaksin he would lose to yellow, that he could not beat yellow; which was why generally even though he had to wear yellow, he would wear a black jacket over the top to try to control the power.

Needless to say, perhaps if one of the advisors had pointed out the stupidity of changing a law to make selling his state granted monopolies from Chalerm and Chavalit to Singapore legal, then using family accounts to do so tax free in 1 day while selling effecitively 96% of the shares to a foreign party all within 1 month rather than telling him to wear a black jacket, we might actually have avoided this entire mess altogether.

As for moving the election forward, a negotiation is familiar to most of us. Red shirts we want 15 days. Abhisit - I am willing to consider shorter, but why. Weera how about 2 months. Abhisit - well I think we can manage 9 months due to changing constitution and getting budget through. ** Red shirts we want 15 days then. Abhisit shall we talk again? Red shirts F&^*K off, all talking off.

** at this point, this is where someone with a brain who actually showed up to negotiate says

Red shirts 9 months is too long and we can get a budget that the entire house agrees with plus select military people together surely, we want an election ASAP

Abhisit but we need to agree on how to change the constitution, and you PT guys who walked out last time but we want you to be part of it. It shouldn't be a joint single decision vote for PT and PT will change the constitution how they want, or vote for someone else and maybe it changes maybe it doesnt.

Red shirts - yeah yeah, ok we want a firm road map. 2 months and a referendum on whether to change or not with a firm direction pre referendum on what is going to change and who will decide and how without leadership from any single political group, but rather representatives of all parts of Thailand including non voters

Abhisit - ok ok ok. I just wanna take you guys to this new place called The Bank. OK, I think we can get that in 3 months. Budget and military selection process, how about we agree in advance a way to share the decision process on those, and we all agree in advance that we will be bound electorally by the current constitution so no cheating.

Weng -blah blah blah (20 min)

Weera - Ai Weng shut up please now. Ok ok, we see that is fair enough. Ok, so you agree referendum 2 months from today; house dissolution 1 month after that; election 1 month following; can we all agree on this timeline?

Abhisit - that's pretty quick, you cum too fast today, as Nong Noi said to Steve at the Buffalo Bar. How about we say referendum within the next 90 days, dissolution within 120 days, and election within 150 days

Jatuporn - Pee nong!

Weeera - <deleted> you two shut up so the real politicians with a brain not connected to their bowels and a bad dose of verbal Diarrhea cha cha cha can talk. that's still too slow. Referendum 60, dissolution 90 election 120

Abhisit - do I ever disappoint you? DONE

And there you have it.

Why is this never possible?

1. Red shirts don't care about the referendum they don't care about anything in the constitution other than lack of penalties for electoral fraud and also amnesty and a pardon for Thaksin. That's it. If it went through the steps above, they will never get either.

2. Jatuporn and his pals have no decision making power anyhow

3. By insisting on 15 days which is simply impossible, then they can say hand on heart, we tried to negotiate but the other side wouldn't. That's like you saying I sell you a condo for 15m baht and I offer 15 baht, and when you say no, I say what, you don't know how to negotiate?

Edited April 20, 2010 by steveromagnino

[Juzrelax]

Even if Abhisit promised general elections in 6 months how much can he be trusted ?

a- He change his mind all the time . First army no live ammo , then have live ammo but only shoot in the air , then now we know for a fact some shot live bullets at innocent reds rank and file

b- He is not even in control himself . He reports to the army . he owes his job to them

If you have a gun, and there's a group of people throwing chairs, cannisters & possibly shooting at you, what are you going to do?

Think about it mate.

[animatic]

There's a no colour rally on Silom apparently.

NO COLOUR = ANTI RED = PRO YELLOW. It's simple. They are also the messengers of the elite. These are the people creating further distractions.

Dunno I havent talked to them and was just mentioning it as a newsworthy comment. Im sure people can think for themselves before rallying or would certainly hope so. Oddly enough nearly every Thai person I know is neither red or yellow and in fact despises both groups. I dunno if they would support a no colour group either as it has never come up in conversation. Talking about Chonburi and Lower Northern Thailand here.

100% agree with Hammered.

Almost none will be picking sides on this.

But both sides will claim all those who don't pick either.

[Insight]

There's a no colour rally on Silom apparently.

NO COLOUR = ANTI RED = PRO YELLOW. It's simple. They are also the messengers of the elite. These are the people creating further distractions.

Not really. The clue is in the name.

[danc]

Well, if I'm going to apply for a job in Thailand I may aswell start at the top!

....I have 1 vote...can I get a 2nd?

On a serious note, in order to disperce protesters while minimizing injury how about shooting tear gas in via hellicopter?

Unless the red shirts have RPG's it might work.

They tried teargas from a helicopter last time, one of the soldiers was shot in the leg.

Shoot back, at the people with the guns. I'm no military strategist, but if thay shoot you it seems the logical thing to do.

You are confusing this army with a professional army, you can not expect them to act professionally as they are on the whole conscripts that most of the time do not even want to be there. This led to the panic last time and the mass murder of protesters. If one shot is fired panic will set in and they will all start either firing or running. Far fetched? Not at all, they have been guilty of both in the past few weeks. This is all for show, Anupong has no intention of a blood bath, he has no intention of clearing the reds, his aim seems to be to just contain the reds.

This is all for show, Anupong has no intention of a blood bath, he has no intention of clearing the reds, his aim seems to be to just contain the reds.

I think I am in agreement here with you - but it is purely conjecture and I want to stress this! One of the problems about this forum is that the posters write so many things about what is happening on the ground as if they have the inside knowledge right from Thaksin to Anupong to the red leaders to Abhisit - we simply do not know and can only conjecture. But I digress...

What we might have here is a 'several pronged" peaceful attempt by Anupong to bring matters to a close, whether with Abhisit's approval or not and bearing in mind that Anupong thought this could be solved without further bloodshed. If the army are seen as heavily armed and with the official line well known that they are allowed to use those arms (to protect themselves) , it will deter many rank and file protestors from coming along to the protest site, as well as deterring those already there from themselves spreading out into that district. Similarly, if all the hotels, businesses, shops and even Patpong are all widely reported as being effectively closed, the "moral" pressure of fellow rank and file maybe losing their jobs comes into play and thereby sows yet more doubt in the rank and file at the protest, those thinking about going along to the site or those returning to the site. Throw in a bit of an anti-monarchy angle to cause the protestors to furthur question themselves and the end result, is the numbers at the protest site drop to just the hard-core. That hard-core really does lose support and legitimacy as a movement and then they might well look to literally negotiate out of protest site - a peaceful solution...

OK that is the theory, but this all goes t*ts up if the numbers do not seem to drop away...and therein lies the nub. The problem we again have here is what is reliable information on the numbers both at the site and the numbers being held up or turned away at various checkpoints - it stands equally that if there are still many looking to get through, then the theory is not working. Already today, there are wildly conflicting reports, the latest being that numbers are the same, if not more than on the 10th - from Richard B. on live updates. And here we have the final problem which almost takes me full circle. It is nigh on impossible or at the very least, very very difficult to get this information, as we are in the midst of huge propaganda and media war - one might almost say there all we have available in-country on such matters is actually disinformation!!!

I actually use the forum at the moment due to the excellent research done by some of the posters in digging up stuff from outside Thailand and by that I mean outside the one we don't mention, the Nation and those two chaps, Panithan and Sunsern. The red leaders are a whole different ball-game!

Edited April 20, 2010 by danc

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Excellent post, Danc!!

Edited April 20, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[bangkoklight]

The world is not all black and white... or in this case red and yellow.

I believe a vast majority of people are neither and just want this mess to end one way or another.

The vast majority of people where want it to end? The vast majority of people in Bangkok, right? And the vast majority of people in Bangkok are on which side? Would the Yellows go to protest in Chiang Mai or Isaan? No, they wouldn't and they wouldn't need to. Why not? Because the seat of government is here in Bangkok. Silly thinking by some people.

Do I read this as that vast majority of people do NOT want this to ever end? They want to be protesting forever? Good, fine with me. If they can afford it...

The vast majority of people in Bangkok want it to end because they are the repressors or the brainwashed servants of the repressors. Also, they don’t want to see the people they repress every time they go out. It scares them and brings the truth of their repressive actions home to them.

[ozzieman05]

I have noticed a large swing in sentiment here in the villages.

It seems that the redshirts V the Goverment was one thing but now it is the redshirts V the army and that is a different thing altogether.

Maybe it is the fact that huge numbers of ordinary Thai families here in Isaan have family members in the Armed Forces

Just my observations from the boondocks.

Thai wife after a phone call home to village tells me things are getting hot in the north

They are no longer being asked to help, but told what they must do or else

She also tells me a new force called the Orange shirts is building in numbers, for what ??????

She also was told monies from an unknown source has been bput in her families bank account and also hers as she owns land, for what reason Unknown

LOL

Thats funny

Thai wife had the same effect

Money in her Bank account

[animatic]

Yes the red protester world just got much smaller.

Since they KNOW they can be shot for going up against army lines...

that MIGHT be seen as a deterrent for rational minds.

Sort of like the nuclear mutually assured destruction kept atom bombs from being dropped for 60 years,

so this overwhelming force that no one wants used is NOW out there, and means leaders must finally consider

How hard is push and how hard is shove.

In general Push has HAD to get significantly lighter,

because Shove just became the 800lb gorilla in the corner.

[TAWP]

@ jcbangkok

No, I checked and it isn't there. The whole thing is filmed from behind a green mesh gate. I posted it and several others to Political Prisoners in Thailand when I found them, but they were deleted within a matter of hours.

Google (in Youtube) deleting movies have nothing to do with the government blocking something.

[neverdie]

"tender"

Coming from somebody who recently branded someone else 'childish'

[vicco]

One of the problems about this forum is that the posters write so many things about what is happening on the ground as if they have the inside knowledge right from Thaksin to Anupong to the red leaders to Abhisit - we simply do not know and can only conjecture.[/b] But I digress...

Don't digress....this is one of the truest statements I have seen on any thread here over the last five weeks...of course we don't know (they don't know) how could we? People just make stuff up to support their own view of the situation, and report it as factual...then the bandwagon starts up and it's all aboard...until the next piece of "intelligence" arrives.

I actually use the forum at the moment due to the excellent research done by some of the posters in digging up stuff from outside Thailand and by that I mean outside the one we don't mention, the Nation and those two chaps, Panithan and Sunsern. The red leaders are a whole different ball-game!

Yes there is a good deal of information from outside which just does not get air time here...and of course the government has seen fit to shut down everything except the sites that are specifically anti UDD. Freedom of speech---Soviet style. By doing so they have just created even more suspicion and even hatred from the rural population. I suspect a lot of tentative Red support has firmed up quite a bit as a result of this. People do not like to be muzzled, and they don't like to see others muzzled either. Bad move. There are a few of the UDD leaders who can do far more to discredit the movement than anything the government can say. I guess the government is worried about some of the others who come across in a very different light. Still a bad move.

[noahvail]

This has been an interesting thread. It has brought points from other threads, and made some new points as well.

Seems to me, after thinking about this for a while, that:

1) The Red Shirts say that the Yellow Shirts are brainwashed.

2) The Yellow Shirts say that the Red Shirts are brainwashed.

3) I'm not too sure, but it seems that both Red and Yellow think the White Shirts are brainwashed.

4) Purple Shirts? I don't recall seeing any evidence (a bit of vitriol perhaps), but probably both sides think they are brainwashed as well.

So it appears that the only ones who haven't been brainwashed are the Plaid Shirts.

I'll have to have a couple of shirts made up tomorrow.

The Yellow shirts have not been brainwashed. They have no brains to wash. They merely wash the shirts of the old money elite. The Reds have been brainwashed for decades by the elite and their Yellow messengers, but now they are standing up and fighting. If only the Yellows could do the same and think for themselves.

Vitriol, vitriol: "They [the Yellow Shirts] have no brains to wash."

Read that sentence by itself:

"They [the Yellow Shirts] have no brains to wash."

And again:

"They [the Yellow Shirts] have no brains to wash."

But I'm pleased to see that you're fairly neutral on this: "The Reds have been brainwashed for decades by the elite and their Yellow messengers,"

So the Yellow Shirts have no brains to wash, but still The Reds have been brainwashed for decades by the elite and their Yellow messengers "who have no brains".

Seems to me you're kind of taking both sides at the same time. And that's ok.

Because my post was intended to lighten things up a bit.

Irony, irony...

[RussellHantz]

"tender"

Coming from somebody who recently branded someone else 'childish'

Sorry neverdie, but after I read this 'tender' little gem of yours I couldn't help but have a chuckle.

You seem to be good at critising others, yet you fail to notice how tender and complicated some of the issues. Its a very complicated tangled web, the political game here in Thailand,

Cheers mate

[yoshiwara]

The vast majority of people in Bangkok want it to end because they are the repressors or the brainwashed servants of the repressors. Also, they don’t want to see the people they repress every time they go out. It scares them and brings the truth of their repressive actions home to them.

Read the above message carefully and you will see that it has nothing to do with class politics.

It is a very clear reflection of the incitement undertaken by the red leadership under instructions from Thaksin to attack anybody opposed to Thaksin

And that includes the workers of Bangkok.

Mr Light has shed some light.

When Arisman said bring bottles to Bangkok to burn it down.

He wasn't joking.

The forum red apologists continuing to push the line that the reds are essentially peaceful are the funny ones.

[TAWP]

There's a no colour rally on Silom apparently.

NO COLOUR = ANTI RED = PRO YELLOW. It's simple. They are also the messengers of the elite. These are the people creating further distractions.

Quoted for proof of madness by the Red fans.

[clausewitz]

Or just dissolve parliament.

Which would solve exactly NOTHING... so any other bright ideas?

Umm Errr Have an Election

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

The reds have consistently said they will respect the results of teh elections. The thing is at the moment tehy feel robbed. Their choice was evicted in 2006 by a miliatry coup. This coup government then forced through a new constituition that absolved the coup leaders of any faault givingt them a lovely all encompassing amnesty. They stacked the election to win - the media favoured their choice- but , horrors, Samak won. So the Judiciary - in a clear judicial coup - deposed him based on his long standing cooking show. Then the highly biased judiciary disbanded the following government.

Here is what Human Rights Commision said:

THAILAND: Watershed moment for democracy and rule of law

November 26, 2008

A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission

THAILAND: Watershed moment for democracy and rule of law

Already, the criminal justice system of Thailand has been reduced to an utter joke, its agencies and personnel either unable or unwilling to intervene effectively to protect public property and people's lives, or even prosecute wrongdoers. That the security forces can carry out coups on the whimsy of generals and engage in battles over trifles with those of neighbouring countries but not responsibly protect the Government House or international airport is sheer farce. That government agencies have been forced to negotiate and cut their losses rather than insist that the law be enforced is dangerous folly. And that the senior judiciary, which through a succession of highly politicised judgments has played a major part in contributing to the current mess has nothing useful to contribute when lives are at stake and the country is in greatest need of intelligent guidance is altogether shameful. About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984.

Many people in the USA didn't like Bush, but imagine if the courts decided to outlaw the Republican party, and then again outlaw a new party based on remnants of the Republican party. Do you think Americans would just sit still or would they be protesting ?

All the reds want is a fair election - with as many outside observers, UN etc etc. as anyone wants- and they will not complain. If abhisit wins then they will respect that.

Edited April 20, 2010 by clausewitz

[yoshiwara]

All the reds want is a fair election - with as many outside observers, UN etc etc. as anyone wants- and they will not complain. If abhisit wins then they will respect that.

No they don't.

What they want is an election with a green light for electoral corruption and the return of Thaksin.

Even this is a fraud.

Elections are already scheduled.

What the reds really, really want is an election within the time-frame for Thaksin to put in his family cronies into the army reshuffle.

The red apologists never, ever acknowledge the time frame raison d'etre.

Never.

Ever.

And that includes you.

[siampolee]

I do find it strange that all the exponents of the peaceful innocence of Thaksin and his Red Shirt Brigades tactics and the poor souls possibly being on the receiving end of gratuitous violence by an armed force in response to attacks upon the law keepers ignore with a deafening silence the unwarranted attack and murder of innocents at Tak Bai who were murdered or rather exterminated on Thaksins orders.

Where were or where are these vociferous supporters of the Red Shirt Brigades peaceful demonstrations when comments are made on the true dogma of Thaksin which resulted in the massacre of innocents ?

Likewise where were they when the war on drugs campaign was being waged and more innocents were exterminated from pregnant mums and young kids who subsequently were proved to have no connection to the narcotics trade ?

The innocent couple who had won three million on the lottery yet were accused by others of amassing their fortune from the narcotics trade, yet again those victims were proved innocent.

Thaksin and the Red Shirt Brigade leaders are nothing but common violent self serving megalomaniac thugs lusting for power and money at any price, they are the true enemies of DEMO(NO)CRACY and the common man and woman in Thailand. Gullible people being milked dry of their future for a few thousand baht.

Abhisit is to be congratulated on the soft approach, sadly some 24 fatalities on his watch, however they pale into insignificance when compared to the reign of terror and the number of exterminations caused by the policies that Thaksin and his henchmen pursued on innocent people.

Indeed a very large body count number, well those we know about of course, how many people were exterminated that we didn't nor ever will know about ?

How can these blind fools posting in this forum be so overwhelmed by their own gullibility and so vociferous in their fanatical support for the Red Shirt Brigade and Thaksin ?

Empty vessels make the most sound !!

[clausewitz]

Likewise where were they when the war on drugs campaign was being waged and more innocents were exterminated from pregnant mums and young kids who subsequently were proved to have no connection to the narcotics trade ?

Sondhi, the leader of the yellow shirts was the main cheerleader of the crackdown on drugs. If you read his newspaper you will find much more open cheering for the police to kill drug dealers than anything Thaksin ever said.

Edited April 20, 2010 by clausewitz

[quiksilva]

All the reds want is a fair election - with as many outside observers, UN etc etc. as anyone wants- and they will not complain.

Really? Where has that been mentioned?

Mr "The UN is not my father" will permit that will he?

[Insight]

The concern about any further problems should be tonight. That's when it kicked off on the 10th, and the charmer Arisman is already hinting at causing problems.

Could be in for a rocky night.

[clausewitz]

All the reds want is a fair election - with as many outside observers, UN etc etc. as anyone wants- and they will not complain.

Really? Where has that been mentioned?

Mr "The UN is not my father" will permit that will he?

And would you find this an acceptable way to go forward? why not ask Abhist why he doesn't immediatly ask for this if he agrees to dissolve the house

[bkkjames]

All the reds want is a fair election - with as many outside observers, UN etc etc. as anyone wants- and they will not complain.

Really? Where has that been mentioned?

Mr "The UN is not my father" will permit that will he?

And would you find this an acceptable way to go forward? why not ask Abhist why he doesn't immediatly ask for this if he agrees to dissolve the house

The issue isn't rigging the election at the ballot box, it's before they get there. But you are smart enough to figure that one out I am sure.

[Neurath]

Likewise where were they when the war on drugs campaign was being waged and more innocents were exterminated from pregnant mums and young kids who subsequently were proved to have no connection to the narcotics trade ?

Sondhi, the leader of the yellow shirts was the main cheerleader of the crackdown on drugs. If you read his newspaper you will find much more open cheering for the police to kill drug dealers than anything Thaksin ever said.

He's been curiously quiet hasn't he? Who did try to off him?????? It was quite the operation.

[bkkjames]

From the Breaking News Update...

"THE NATION: Arisman has threatened that red "army" will carry out "special ops" tonite, seizing ambulances and military vehicles"

Interesting development.

[TheOldWolf]

All the reds want is a fair election - with as many outside observers, UN etc etc. as anyone wants- and they will not complain.

Really? Where has that been mentioned?

Mr "The UN is not my father" will permit that will he?

And would you find this an acceptable way to go forward? why not ask Abhist why he doesn't immediatly ask for this if he agrees to dissolve the house

There will be an election. PM said at the negotinations 9 month. Reds said no 15 days, end of talk. The certainly don´t know what it means to negotiate. PM was prepard for more talks, that´s means he maybe had more to offer. So maybe be it could have been 6 month, but even that is to long time, because Takki needs to but his cronies in position before the reshuffle.

[saintofsilence]

From the Breaking News Update...

"THE NATION: Arisman has threatened that red "army" will carry out "special ops" tonite, seizing ambulances and military vehicles"

Interesting development.

How pathetic is this guy taking ambulances off the road , thailand would be much better off if he is carted away in one.

It is so unbelievable how there are still people on this forum supporting these red pigs.

[hammered]

The stickers and one of the red publications have certainly set things off. I just heard it discussed quite openly at a fairly poor food place as I enjoyed a beer or two. Used to be quite sympathetic to the reds down there but now that has changed. Lots of talk about why a president isnt as good as a monarch and reds trying to go too far. Quite a few bad words about Chavalit too. Dunno who did the stickers although people seem to be linking them to the reds but whatevr was published in the red media paper was stupid mistake judging by reactions. Not sure what paper it was