Did America Create Pattaya?

[iwad2010]

Yeah, and Ghandi created Nintendo DS Lite

[IanForbes]

The Americans might not have created Pattaya, but they certainly had a hand in creating the Philippines poor man's version of it... Angeles City... an hour's drive north of Manilla.

[Boksida]

I came here in 1971 and in those days Pattaya was mostly popiular with resident Expats - many individuals - and even some of the Companies here - had their own Bungalows on beaches like Wong Amart.

There were 2 hotels - Nipa Hut and another ................ I think the name was Pattaya Palace.

There was very little Nightlife as I recall, mainly restaurants like Dolf Riks and Barbos etc., and very few GI type visitors

I am not sure when the place really "took off" but I think it was the advent of "Tour Group" type tourism in the late '70's / early '80's .

Patrick

My recollections from 1970 onward are pretty much in agreement with Patrick's. I remember the Nipa Lodge but I thought the other hotel was the Orchid something. I am wondering if it was the low rise building that is now part of the Amari Orchid.

Several missionary organizations had rest houses in Jomtien and I think the YMCA had a place there. I never saw too many GIs at Pattaya but there were a huge number of civilian contractors based in Bangkok and they used to have sabbaticals from Patpong in Pattaya. I think this was the start of the girlie bars and then they really started to kick along when guys working in the Middle East discovered Thailand as a break centre. I would give the GIs a not guilty verdict.

[mark45y]

The Americans might not have created Pattaya, but they certainly had a hand in creating the Philippines poor man's version of it... Angeles City... an hour's drive north of Manilla.

Good answer but what was the question?

A. Try to think of something bad the Americans invented.

B. Americans are really all sex tourists.

C. Name the sin cities that America has created.

[bonobo]

I first visited Pattaya back in 1981. Had been working in Saudi for a year or so and heard from other expats about this 'interesting' location.

No real recollection of which nationalities were the main players at that time but was aware that a fair number were similarly on R&R from the Middle East, including a fair few arabs.

Perhaps part of the reason for the Pattaya upswing has it's 'roots' in the Middle East oil bonanza starting in the mid 70's.

I went to Pattaya in 1982 (stayed at the Porn Hotel as I got a kick out of the name.)  On that trip, there were some Aussies and a huge number of Arabs, mostly Saudis.  I talked to one of them, and he told me most of his friends came to Pattaya to drink and womanize as they could not do that back home.

[bonobo]

The Americans might not have created Pattaya, but they certainly had a hand in creating the Philippines poor man's version of it... Angeles City... an hour's drive north of Manilla.

Sorry Ian, but Angeles in 2 hours to the northwest (maybe one-and-a-half with the new highway) of Manila.    And while Clark Air Base certainly provided the customer base, the bars there were mostly Australian-owned.

Now, Angeles is but a shadow of what is was in its heyday and mostly patronzed by Brits and Aussies with a few US Vietnam vet hangers on.  Nothing even approaching the modern-day Pattaya.

[kopite]

The Americans might not have created Pattaya, but they certainly had a hand in creating the Philippines poor man's version of it... Angeles City... an hour's drive north of Manilla.

Good answer but what was the question?

A. Try to think of something bad the Americans invented.

Rocky 5

B. Americans are really all sex tourists.

i know

C. Name the sin cities that America has created.

Basin City

[Tywais]

I never met a GI who was at Pattaya in the 1960’s.

Guess we never met then. I was stationed at Utapao 1968-1969. I had a bungalow in Ban Chang and later co-shared a house in Pattaya. We were on swing shifts so usually had the house to myself. I regularly met US military such as Army who stated they were on R&R from Vietnam, however they could be formally on R&R to Thailand and ended up in Pattaya. Also Navy presence was obvious as there were roaming Navy shore patrol to keep some of the fights under control.

Pretty much all the bars/restaurants where hatch/bamboo style and I would eat regularly at them usually sitting outside next to the beach. I only recall one hotel at the time at the far end of the beach area, perhaps that was JUSMAG. At kilosip, most of the bars were built using leftover plywood and tin from Utapao base. Have some pictures I will try and dig up.

Yes, Utapao had its own beach and an outdoor movie theater and cheap food/beer but unless you really liked hanging out with other GIs exclusively then either outside the gate for the kilosip bars or to Pattaya on days off.

[mark45y]

I never met a GI who was at Pattaya in the 1960’s.

Guess we never met then. I was stationed at Utapao 1968-1969. I had a bungalow in Ban Chang and later co-shared a house in Pattaya. We were on swing shifts so usually had the house to myself. I regularly met US military such as Army who stated they were on R&R from Vietnam, however they could be formally on R&R to Thailand and ended up in Pattaya. Also Navy presence was obvious as there were roaming Navy shore patrol to keep some of the fights under control.

Pretty much all the bars/restaurants where hatch/bamboo style and I would eat regularly at them usually sitting outside next to the beach. I only recall one hotel at the time at the far end of the beach area, perhaps that was JUSMAG. At kilosip, most of the bars were built using leftover plywood and tin from Utapao base. Have some pictures I will try and dig up.

Yes, Utapao had its own beach and an outdoor movie theater and cheap food/beer but unless you really liked hanging out with other GIs exclusively then either outside the gate for the kilosip bars or to Pattaya on days off.

By GI I meant army, sorry. I assume you were in the Air Force? You didn’t mention Newland? Since you were living in Ban Chang did you go?

And if you don't mind me asking, since you lived there, how many working girls would you say were living and working in Pattaya in 1969? Hundreds, thousands?

Edited April 24, 2010 by mark45y

[Tywais]

I assume you were in the Air Force? You didn’t mention Newland? Since you were living in Ban Chang did you go?

Yes, Air Force and realized after posting you were probably referring to Army though as I said I ran into some in Pattaya - nearly had a tussle with one who thought my hair was too long and demanded to see my military ID. Newland, well I pretty much covered the territory from Sattihip to Rayong and everything in between. Rayong mainly for the movie house, Sattihip for variety in food. Mainly Kilosip for the drinks and company and close enough I could stagger safely back to base.

Some photos from someone else > Satihip/Newland

[mark45y]

I assume you were in the Air Force? You didn’t mention Newland? Since you were living in Ban Chang did you go?

Yes, Air Force and realized after posting you were probably referring to Army though as I said I ran into some in Pattaya - nearly had a tussle with one who thought my hair was too long and demanded to see my military ID. Newland, well I pretty much covered the territory from Sattihip to Rayong and everything in between. Rayong mainly for the movie house, Sattihip for variety in food. Mainly Kilosip for the drinks and company and close enough I could stagger safely back to base.

Some photos from someone else > Satihip/Newland

Sorry I added a question after you replied. Since you lived there how many working ladies would you say were in Pattaya in 1969? Hundreds? Thousands?

[Tywais]

Sorry I added a question after you replied. Since you lived there how many working ladies would you say were in Pattaya in 1969? Hundreds? Thousands?

The ones that are visible in bars catering to foreigners, not Thai brothels, I would be hard pressed to put the number more then 100-150. But then, I stayed on the beach road and ventured maybe one or two sois behind it but there were just not that many bars at the time.

[ferd54]

Glad to read some first-hand information about the old chestnut -- that says Pattaya's girlie go-go scene was a result of US servicemen on R&R.

The story I heard was the original go-go place was started by demobbed US servicemen. I think it was the Delta Queen or a very similar name, which was still there a couple of years ago right along the beach road.

[mark45y]

I agree it is nice to get information from someone who actually lived in Pattaya in 1969. But I don't think he said that the Pattaya go go scene was started by US servicemen on R&R.

Tywais, what do you think. Was the Pattaya go go scene started by US servicemen on R&R?

[Tywais]

Tywais, what do you think. Was the Pattaya go go scene started by US servicemen on R&R?

Of course this is my personal take on it. At that time there was no go-go scene or anything even closely resembling it. No bright flashing neon lights with girls sitting outside beckoning you in as it is now. It was much more laid back without the in-your-face approach. The girls wore more conservative clothes such as dresses or slacks - no topless dancing nor bikini outfits.

They were more like fixtures that you could sit and talk with or often dance with and they often danced among themselves. Don't remember the convention of ladies drinks being there at the time, though when I was in Saigon they had Saigon Tea which was the equivalent.

Perhaps a tiny seed was planted (no pun intended ) but my suspicion is that the go-go scene came to Bangkok first but much later and imported to Pattaya as it (Pattaya) become more popular. Even in Bangkok in '68, it was mainly night clubs, both high and low end, and fish bowl massage parlors. Again, the clubs were laid back, no pressure, conservative dress and approach but in Bangkok the lady drink convention was in place. I remember one club which was mainly one big dance floor with tables around it, low lighting and music and the girls dancing either alone or with a customer. If you saw a girl on the dance floor you would like to join you you just tell the waiter and he would shine his flashlight (yes the clubs was pretty dark) to get her attention to come over.

I was only 20 at the time and pretty shy and introverted but learned my way around pretty quickly. I don't remember any pressure at all to go shopping for shoes, purses, "gold" at the time - more like being on a date.

//edit - about Saigon Tea, I wonder if that was imported into Thailand by the Vietnam vets, which is referred to "lady drinks" here? A little off-topic, but this article shows a lot of similarities to the happenings in Thailand. Saigon Tea

[hawthorne]

Yes I think they did circa 1905. Pattay was the name of the queen of New Orleans. She was a ladyboy of the quarter. She was exliled after exposing herself at Carnival for some cheap beads.

Maybe this is all rumor...

[Pakboong]

I came here in 1971 and in those days Pattaya was mostly popiular with resident Expats - many individuals - and even some of the Companies here - had their own Bungalows on beaches like Wong Amart.

There were 2 hotels - Nipa Hut and another ................ I think the name was Pattaya Palace.

There was very little Nightlife as I recall, mainly restaurants like Dolf Riks and Barbos etc., and very few GI type visitors

I am not sure when the place really "took off" but I think it was the advent of "Tour Group" type tourism in the late '70's / early '80's .

Patrick

Actually, it was called Nipa Lodge. The Fantasy Club where the Crab Pot is now was the disco most popular and my favorite restaurant of the day was The Coral Reef. Top quaility sea food far better than what we find there today.

[ferd54]

....but my suspicion is that the go-go scene came to Bangkok first but much later and imported to Pattaya as it (Pattaya) become more popular.

That's pretty well documented. Patpong Road was home to many airlines in BKK, including Air America. US guys started a go-go place as shows such as Shindig! were popular in America at that time. One thing led to another -- and it being Thailand -- the outfits got skimpier and the shows more provocative.

I always thought the retired US vets and spooks had a had in its later migration to Pattaya, but could be once the model was set, Thais and other expats brought the show to Pattaya.

[Boksida]

I remember one club which was mainly one big dance floor with tables around it, low lighting and music and the girls dancing either alone or with a customer. If you saw a girl on the dance floor you would like to join you you just tell the waiter and he would shine his flashlight (yes the clubs was pretty dark) to get her attention to come over.

That sounds like the Thai Heaven on New Petchburi Road - quite a place.

The first place I remember seeing go-go in a bar in Thailand was at the Grand Prix on Patpong run by Rick Menard. That was probably 1970.

[lonewolf99]

I am not an American, I am Scottish and I know the man who had the 3rd bar on what became Walking Street. He comes from Newcastle in England. This did not happen until the late 70's. So it follows that he would have had friends from the U.K. They would have come on holiday and thought exactly the same as thousands of other people who still come to Pattaya.....a beer bar ???...I could make money out this !!!!!

And so they did from many different countries. Not just America and not just military personnel from other countries.

I also know a Swiss gent who came in 1988 (a long time after the Vietnam war) and described Thrappaya Road over to Jomtien as a jungle track that led to a beach with no one on it. He swam nud_e and no one saw him or his girlfriend. He came to Pattaya as it was advertised in Bangkok by tour agencies as a beach resort.

Simple really. Nothing to do with JFK or LBJ or the good old US of A.......just people and a nice beach and tourism.

The nice beach has long gone and is now polluted to hel_l both in the water and on the land beside it.

Sadly just the way of the modern world.

[rono]

silly me thought god created pattaya

[yabaaaa]

silly me thought god created pattaya

Now you are being silly there is no God

[rono]

oh, that's why you use capital G

[IanForbes]

The Americans might not have created Pattaya, but they certainly had a hand in creating the Philippines poor man's version of it... Angeles City... an hour's drive north of Manilla.

Sorry Ian, but Angeles in 2 hours to the northwest (maybe one-and-a-half with the new highway) of Manila. And while Clark Air Base certainly provided the customer base, the bars there were mostly Australian-owned.

Now, Angeles is but a shadow of what is was in its heyday and mostly patronzed by Brits and Aussies with a few US Vietnam vet hangers on. Nothing even approaching the modern-day Pattaya.

It's been a while since I was in Angeles city, bonobo. I had a lovely lady wrapped all around me on the ride from Angeles City to the airport at Manilla and it only SEEMED like half an hour before we got there. Had we been traveling the other way I might be married by now. She was the most stunningly beautiful woman I had ever been with. Her father was Castillian Spanish and her mother was Filipina. Estelle looked far more like her father... tall and slender with flashing brown eyes and fine features. But, she was on her way to Japan and I was on my way back home... and we never met again in person.

I agree that Angeles City is nowhere near as interesting as Pattaya. That is why I mentioned Angeles as being the poorman's version... sleazy bars loaded with old reprobates. And, Angeles City doesn't have a beach. You have to drive to Olongapo for that. The only thing that the Philippines has going for it over Thailand is that everyone speaks good English.

It's been a good read. Thanks for posting the topic, Mark.

[fdimike]

Maybe not created, but more like financed the the construction and provided the consumer base

At the risk of offending all the Vietnam veterans, there is a school of thought that holds that the use of Thailand as an R&R center, while meant to help, served only to create problems and eroded order and discipline within the military. If one looks at past experience of R&R centers in WWII, and the Korean War, although the discipline problems were there, the situation was managed and there was no breakdown of general discipline. The proof is in how foreign militaries treat the process now. One will never see the chronic wild excesses of the Vietnam era today. Always, always maintain discipline in the ranks and places like Pattaya only serve to corrupt and undermine the authority of the command structure.

I'm going to get bashaed for being a canary now.

Geriatrickid I don’t want to bash you. But I must point out Pattaya was not an R&R center. I’ll repeat that for those of you who didn’t see it the first time. Pattaya was not an R&R center.

America did not finance or construct anything in Pattaya. America did not finance anything in Pattaya. It had R&R centers and hotels and clubs in Bangkok but not in Pattaya. America was completely out of Thailand and Vietnam by 1975 and there wasn’t anything built in Pattaya in 1975 except a couple of hotels. Google some photos of Pattaya in 1975. Nothing but a dirt road and a few motorbikes.

Do you want to discuss how Sidney being an R&R center completely denigrated the morals of Australia and created a sex Disney world at Kings Cross?

Do you want to talk about Hawaii, the most popular R&R destination for American troops destroying the morals of Waikiki beach? No, of course not because it doesn’t fit into your urban folk legend that America created sex tourism in Thailand. It ain’t so. It ain’t true. It is a folk tale contradicted in writing, photos and by talking to anyone who was here at the time.

Places like Pattaya may or may not undermine the command structure. Historically that might be an interesting discussion but we will never know because Pattaya was never part of the American experience in Vietnam.

Mark I belive you are mistaken regarding Pattaya and its status as an R & R center. My first trip to Pattaya was in 1970/1 while I was stationed with the American Air Force in Udon Thani. Pattaya was well known to us at that time as a small beach resort. There were 3 hotels to the best of knowledge - Pattaya Palace (largest), Nipa Lodge & another which name escapes me. There was one road which ran along the beach along with a number of restaurants/bars. The main attraction was renting a boat for a day fishing trip to the nearby islands where they prepared what you caught. You could also snorkel/scuba as the water was crystal clear. As best I can recall para-sailing was also available.

The US military had already opened an R & R center at that time. They had beach bungalows for rent along with a small base exchange. Most of the people who came to Pattaya were foreigners living/working in Bangkok as well as some GI's from the "upcountry" military bases and Vietnam. Bang San (sp) just up the road from Pattaya was primarily a beach resort used by Thai people from Bangkok. I returned to Thailand in 1972 and was stationed at Don Muang for 6 months. Pattaya was well established at that time with a fourth hotel (Royal Cliff) under construction. The number of bars/restaurants had also increased. there was still only 1 beach road.

I returned to Thailand again in 1973 and was stationed at U-Tapao (UT as we called it) where I spent the next 2 years. Pattaya was well on its way to its current status by that time. The number of GI's visting the beach resort had swelled enough that it was difficult to get accomodations at the R & R center. Most restaurants/bars as I recall were located at the south end of the beach in the vicinity of the "big tree" located in the middle of the road. Pattaya still had only one road at that time. The water and the beach were beautiful and clean at that time. I spent many days of my off duty time in Pattaya at both the R & R center as well as the local hotels when there was nothing available at the R & R center.

I left Thailand in June 1975 and I can assure you the American military was still there. We finally closed our bases in Thailand in June 1976.

[JSixpack]

silly me thought god created pattaya

No, because it wasn't God who made honky tonk angels.

[ferd54]

The story I heard was the original go-go place was started by demobbed US servicemen. I think it was the Delta Queen or a very similar name, which was still there a couple of years ago right along the beach road.

Sorry to quote myself, but thought I should correct the above after I had time to do a bit of checking. The bar is the Tahitian Queen, founded in 1978. Still there, but had a serious fire recently that closed it for the time being.

From another discussion group, which I am not permitted by VT to name, that seems to agree that the Germans were most responsible for Pattaya's development in the late '70s and early '80s.:

The "Germanics" used to be the biggest group in Pattaya from 1973 on, thanks "Neckermann-Reisen" , using the Lufthansa-daughter "Condor" flying in by the Boeing 747.

That's pretty much how I figured things went. I lived near to Düsseldorf Airport in the 80s and both Condor and LTU were firmly established in flying to places that most Brits hadn't heard of at the time. One of the surprising things I found during my first trip to Pattaya in the mid-80's was the number of good-quality, established German (and other European) restaurants in town. The Red Lion, opposite what was to become the FLB, actually stood out from everywhere else because it was a Brit-style pub serving Brit-style food. It was also empty most of the time.

[bonobo]

It's been a while since I was in Angeles city, bonobo. I had a lovely lady wrapped all around me on the ride from Angeles City to the airport at Manilla and it only SEEMED like half an hour before we got there.

 

It's been a good read. Thanks for posting the topic, Mark.

Ditto!

[mark45y]

I have certainly learned a lot reading this thread. I was in the army here and in Vietnam in 1969 and served two tours. I had never heard of Pattaya. Bangkok yes but never Pattaya. As you probably realize 69 and 70 were the two years of major fighting and causalities during the Vietnam war. 500,000 troops stationed in Vietnam in 1969 and 150 in 1974.

There were a number of different types of troops stationed in SEA during the 60’s and 70’s. My only real experience was with the army. Special forces, marines, rangers and those types took R&R in active volcanoes with Javanese women who ate crushed glass sandwiches and drank JP4 cocktails. Navy guys I assumed were too high class for R&R in the places that I hung out and the air force lived in relative luxury to most grunts so we assumed they had special R&R centers designed by Hilton and Marriott.

I realize the American military contributed a lot to the Thai economy up to 5% of national income in 1968.

In 1966 there were 652 nightclubs, bars and massage parlors in Thailand. 336 of those were in Bangkok and 126 in the five provinces housing Air Force bases in the northeast and 190 in other provinces in the central region housing other US airbases.

When the military started to pull out the bars declined from 652 in 66 to 499 in 1972.

In Bangkok they fell by 50% between 66 and 72.

The Checchi company of Washington DC who came to Thailand under the auspices of Pacific area travel association stated that tourism barely existed in Thailand before 1960.

In 1959 Bangkok had only 871 tourist hotel rooms.

In 1969 there were 469,800 foreign visitors to Thailand. 159,000 from the US, 70,300 were on R&R. From the UK 31,300 visitors (no R&R that I could fine).

Looking at a whole lot of economic data from the 1950’s to the 1970’s I guess it is fair to say that the US funded Thailand’s jump from a small time agricultural nation into what it is today.

It is certainly factual to conclude that the Vietnam war started Thailand’s modern tourist industry. I guess that means that US taxpayers funded Pattaya, Nana, Soi cowboy and the list goes on.

I got a lot of information from a study named “The Vietnam war and tourism in Bangkok’s development 1960 to 1970.”

[bonobo]

 

There were a number of different types of troops stationed in SEA during the 60's and 70's. My only real experience was with the army. Special forces, marines, rangers and those types took R&R in active volcanoes with Javanese women who ate crushed glass sandwiches and drank JP4 cocktails. Navy guys I assumed were too high class for R&R in the places that I hung out and the air force lived in relative luxury to most grunts so we assumed they had special R&R centers designed by Hilton and Marriott.

Those observations are probably pretty close to the truth!