Thailand: A Simple Guide To Anarchy And Chaos

[321niti123]

Never put a politician in charge of military, because they always they put good of themselves before the good of the country

Not in a developed, civilsed country.

I think you will find that Winston Churchill (plus others) would take exception to your comment.

Those people benefitted by what is good of the country.

[chadintheusa]

Swift elections should be held. To avoid vote buying it should be illigal to cash out more than 50000 per day from the bank. A 30 year jailtime should be imposed for vote buying. During preparation to the elections politicians should not be allowed to travel to avoid they bring money out to the provinces. Voters should sign an affidavit that they have not received any money for voting, transportation etc. Voters receiving money for their votes should be punished with 10 years in jail.

This would hopefully give a fair election and maybe a result both sides could accept after the election. If Thailand just continues as usual with massive vote buying nobody trusts the elections and it will end with the military taking over the government.

Your proposal would not work. It would simply cripple the banking system. The people who want to buy votes will simply transfer money to wives, minor wives, children, distant relatives, maids, employees, and other lackeys and have them withdraw it. Why should the average voter who sells his vote face more jail time than the politicians do for buying votes? Who do you propose would enforce these new laws? The police don't seem to be able to do anything at the moment, and it just gives them a simple way of disappearing anyone they have a grudge against. In a country with dishonest police, dishonest politicians, and an electorate willing to sell their votes for peanuts a fair election is a fairy tale. Calling an election at this moment in time rewards violence, anarchy and corruption. Whatever the outcome might be it will be challenged by the losing side, who now know that if you kill enough people you get to vote again.

[BKjohn]

It seems this forum has been taken over by the red shirts and I wish you a lot of fun writing propaganda

[ChiangMaiFun]

Taken with a greater cultural overview - this is paradigm shift happening NOW - countries go through it in different ways. The point is that, at the very basic, grass roots there is a call for CHANGE... a change from the 'old' ways of being ruled by an elitist group who make all the money and have all the power. It is true that most of the 'foot soldiers' will not realize they are a part of this shift - but they are.

I believe that a large part of this is in anticipation of a future 'event' - one that no one wants but, sadly, will come - out of that could be a huge divide whilst the elitist yellows further see the increased unpopularity of that events outcome (I can say no more). Thailand is achanging... see how the elites cling and claw onto their power and bank balances - the majority of Thais will, eventually, wake up and when that day comes it is over...

[animatic]

Just a quick notice before everyone gets their teeth into this, given the highly inflammatory nature of some posts and posters in the News forum, we are instituting a zero tolerance policy with regards to posting inflammatory comments, comments advocating violence, trollish comments, and flames. You will receive an automatic posting rights suspension for this behavior in the News forum. Bear that in mind when posting.

quite right!

well done

Ditto

[Sir_Sanuk]

Err.. it's written by Thanong. Large pinch of salt required.

[BKjohn]

Your proposal would not work. It would simply cripple the banking system. The people who want to buy votes will simply transfer money to wives, minor wives, children, distant relatives, maids, employees, and other lackeys and have them withdraw it. Why should the average voter who sells his vote face more jail time than the politicians do for buying votes? Who do you propose would enforce these new laws? The police don't seem to be able to do anything at the moment, and it just gives them a simple way of disappearing anyone they have a grudge against. In a country with dishonest police, dishonest politicians, and an electorate willing to sell their votes for peanuts a fair election is a fairy tale. Calling an election at this moment in time rewards violence, anarchy and corruption. Whatever the outcome might be it will be challenged by the losing side, who now know that if you kill enough people you get to vote again.

The first sensible statement here

Abhisit was/ is working on reforming the country, but the red shirts / Thaksin will not let him since it would be against their interest. You can not have a real democracy - I don't know of any really except may be Switzerland comes close - or anything close while vote buying is the standard campaign tool.

As I said in many prior posts, those who are rioting in Bangkok right now are the same people who have sold their votes in the past and what it really comes down to is money. They want Thaksin back because he gives them money and he promised them more money when he gets back into power - everything else is brainwash

[animatic]

Swift elections should be held. To avoid vote buying it should be illigal to cash out more than 50000 per day from the bank. A 30 year jailtime should be imposed for vote buying. During preparation to the elections politicians should not be allowed to travel to avoid they bring money out to the provinces. Voters should sign an affidavit that they have not received any money for voting, transportation etc. Voters receiving money for their votes should be punished with 10 years in jail.

This would hopefully give a fair election and maybe a result both sides could accept after the election. If Thailand just continues as usual with massive vote buying nobody trusts the elections and it will end with the military taking over the government.

How do you suggest buying a house or land, since those are cash transactions,

if you can only get 50,000 per day from your account?

5,000,000baht house and land. It would take you 100 days to withdraw the money....

[lannarebirth]

Abhisit/Government have already lost control of this country. The army and the police do nothing to stop the protests - for the simple reason they support the "reds" don't they. Anyone can see that.

The chief of the army already suggested that Abhisit dissolve the house. That was to allow him an opportunity to save face. Beacuse the next military coup is about to happen instead. I give it three days at the most.

A very simplistic view of the situation. I think that the Government have been very restrained with these loonies and have been reluctant to take a heavy hand because they are hoping to avoid or minimize casualties. Unfortunately for them, the red shirts have taken advantage of this and upped the ante to escalate the confrontation which as sure as night follows day, WILL come.

The sad part about it is that many rank and file red shirts who are rallying on the mistaken belief that this is all about democracy will be merely cannon fodder thanks to Thaksin and the red shirt leaders to further their political goals. The red shirts have been let get away with too much for too long so in their mind, they can do anything with impunity which of course will not be.

A sad sad day for Thailand.

I'm sorry but this is very simplistic thinking - we are at the cusp of a cultural revolution - Thaksin is just a small part of it - some parts we cannot discuss (but the OP alludes to)- some we can. Abhisit HAS to call an election - with dates. Even his Army masters have said there has to be a dissolution - he should stop clinging onto power and let the people decide.

Why do you continue to assume "the people" have anything to do with this? At first I could pass this off as naivete or ignorance as you've been here such a short time. I now believe you wear your blinders willingly. Get this straight. This has nothing to do with "the people". This is a battle between provincial godfathers and the central government.

Edited April 23, 2010 by lannarebirth

[chantorn]

The poor view the coup against Thaksin of 2006, and the later disbanding of his party, as revenge by the traditional elites who wanted the old ways back, and who would get what they wanted by force since they could no longer get it through the ballot box. It is a view that is not entirely wrong.

In late 2008, anti-Thaksin mobs wearing yellow shirts and led by prominent business figures occupied Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi International Airport with impunity, seeking to annul the result of a general election in which pro-Thaksin forces gained power, despite Thaksin's exile overseas. Yellow is the color of Thai royalty, and the Palace was believed to be sympathetic to the mobs.

Now Thaksin loyalists — the red shirts — are doing much the same, demanding change through mob behavior. They believe that they, too, are entitled to act with impunity.

Quite a good piece by the Japanese

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20100423a2.html

[givenall]

Never put a politician in charge of military, because they always they put good of themselves before the good of the country

Not in a developed, civilsed country.

I think you will find that Winston Churchill (plus others) would take exception to your comment.

How about George Bush

[eastlight]

He is probably not for off the mark on any point.

Chockdee Thailand

And the Baht is still strong - just amazing.

[ThailandLovr]

Wondering if the cleanup crew will be bringing coffee and donuts?

[bangkoklight]

What you are writing here is nothing but red propaganda.

Yes, and then BKjohn?

I'm not a supporter of the Yellows and their masters (the elite who control an oppressive regime in the name of **** and country), so I wouldn't be writing about how nice their yellow T-shirts look in the sun, would I?

What kind of a post is that BKjohn? You can do better than that.

[anotherpeter]

When I read people talking about dissolution in 4 months, Thaksin, negotiation etc.. they simply do not get it do they, they just do not understand Thailand.

This is about a COUP, and preventing the military re-shuffle that will lead to a COUP before any election ever gets a chance to happen.

The only way to stop it is to get the House dissolved now.

Which is why even Annupong has said "Dissolve the House now".

The PRO COUP group are all set to promote their clan to all lead positions and will then lead a COUP and take away all democracy. This is why you see Army, Police, Reds and everyone else all in the middle and all trying to apply pressure to get the House dissolved BEFORE the reshuffle.

If the reshuffle is done then democracy in Thailand is dead and buried.

Be aware of the real facts and do not fall into the abyss of believing the propaganda.

Can you please point me to where Anupong said "Dissolve the House NOW"?

[danc]

Taken with a greater cultural overview - this is paradigm shift happening NOW - countries go through it in different ways. The point is that, at the very basic, grass roots there is a call for CHANGE... a change from the 'old' ways of being ruled by an elitist group who make all the money and have all the power. It is true that most of the 'foot soldiers' will not realize they are a part of this shift - but they are.

I believe that a large part of this is in anticipation of a future 'event' - one that no one wants but, sadly, will come - out of that could be a huge divide whilst the elitist yellows further see the increased unpopularity of that events outcome (I can say no more). Thailand is achanging... see how the elites cling and claw onto their power and bank balances - the majority of Thais will, eventually, wake up and when that day comes it is over...

Yes, the future event is the nub over and above the happenings, however horrible, on the ground. With that event will come huge self-analysis and change,as should be the case given that this is already 2010, not the 1600's or the 1930's. The dynamics of the status quo will change dramatically and this fills people, happy with that status quo, with fear. I don't know enough to say hand on heart that the army would recoup but this reshuffle does seem very important to all sides and one has to wonder why. Is it simply power brokers trying to get their guys in or is it, as levelhead says, something more? There has never in any country been a smooth transition out of a semi-feudal power structure, so one could argue that what we are seeing are the very beginnings of that transition, warts and all. As I have said before, the very structure of that semi-feudal society has enabled too many people to have a nose in the trough, so change is going to be very very messy. All of those people with a vested interest in getting their way so that their own status quo has to adapt as little as possible, are sure to fight their corner, if they think they can influence how the transition takes place.

Edited April 23, 2010 by danc

[BKjohn]

Why do you continue to assume "the people" have anything to do with this? At first I could pass thisoff as naivete or ignorance as you've been here such a short time. I now believe you where your blinders willingly. Get this straight. This has nothing to do with "the people". This is a battle between provincial godfathers and the central government.

Agree 100% - those provincial godfathers who are on Thaksins payroll and control their flock by passing a small percentage on to them.

When Abhisit came to power I made a statement – If he throws a billion baht into Isaan he will be ok – if not ………

Been here for 26 years and believe to know how things work. In my humble opinion, in Thailand everything is for sale incl. political loyalty – see vote buying

[kenai]

Your proposal would not work. It would simply cripple the banking system. The people who want to buy votes will simply transfer money to wives, minor wives, children, distant relatives, maids, employees, and other lackeys and have them withdraw it. Why should the average voter who sells his vote face more jail time than the politicians do for buying votes? Who do you propose would enforce these new laws? The police don't seem to be able to do anything at the moment, and it just gives them a simple way of disappearing anyone they have a grudge against. In a country with dishonest police, dishonest politicians, and an electorate willing to sell their votes for peanuts a fair election is a fairy tale. Calling an election at this moment in time rewards violence, anarchy and corruption. Whatever the outcome might be it will be challenged by the losing side, who now know that if you kill enough people you get to vote again.

The first sensible statement here

Abhisit was/ is working on reforming the country, but the red shirts / Thaksin will not let him since it would be against their interest. You can not have a real democracy - I don't know of any really except may be Switzerland comes close - or anything close while vote buying is the standard campaign tool.

As I said in many prior posts, those who are rioting in Bangkok right now are the same people who have sold their votes in the past and what it really comes down to is money. They want Thaksin back because he gives them money and he promised them more money when he gets back into power - everything else is brainwash

de·moc·ra·cy

1.

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2.

a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.

3.

a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4.

political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5.

the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Who are the people of thailand? Do they have equal rights and privileges?

70% of thai population reside outside of cities so if we are talking numbers it brings up an interesting point.

If I voted for a president based on getting a tax break, should I not be allowed to vote?

[lannarebirth]

Taken with a greater cultural overview - this is paradigm shift happening NOW - countries go through it in different ways. The point is that, at the very basic, grass roots there is a call for CHANGE... a change from the 'old' ways of being ruled by an elitist group who make all the money and have all the power. It is true that most of the 'foot soldiers' will not realize they are a part of this shift - but they are.

I believe that a large part of this is in anticipation of a future 'event' - one that no one wants but, sadly, will come - out of that could be a huge divide whilst the elitist yellows further see the increased unpopularity of that events outcome (I can say no more). Thailand is achanging... see how the elites cling and claw onto their power and bank balances - the majority of Thais will, eventually, wake up and when that day comes it is over...

Is this all just a "feeling" you have? Do you have any sense of how we arrived at this place?

[anotherpeter]

Taken with a greater cultural overview - this is paradigm shift happening NOW - countries go through it in different ways. The point is that, at the very basic, grass roots there is a call for CHANGE... a change from the 'old' ways of being ruled by an elitist group who make all the money and have all the power. It is true that most of the 'foot soldiers' will not realize they are a part of this shift - but they are.

I believe that a large part of this is in anticipation of a future 'event' - one that no one wants but, sadly, will come - out of that could be a huge divide whilst the elitist yellows further see the increased unpopularity of that events outcome (I can say no more). Thailand is achanging... see how the elites cling and claw onto their power and bank balances - the majority of Thais will, eventually, wake up and when that day comes it is over...

The problem with the reds "Call for Change" is that they are calling for going back to the corruption with in the Thaksin governments.

As much as I agree that there is a need for change, going back to Thaksin is not the answer.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Abhisit/Government have already lost control of this country. The army and the police do nothing to stop the protests - for the simple reason they support the "reds" don't they. Anyone can see that.

The chief of the army already suggested that Abhisit dissolve the house. That was to allow him an opportunity to save face. Beacuse the next military coup is about to happen instead. I give it three days at the most.

A very simplistic view of the situation. I think that the Government have been very restrained with these loonies and have been reluctant to take a heavy hand because they are hoping to avoid or minimize casualties. Unfortunately for them, the red shirts have taken advantage of this and upped the ante to escalate the confrontation which as sure as night follows day, WILL come.

The sad part about it is that many rank and file red shirts who are rallying on the mistaken belief that this is all about democracy will be merely cannon fodder thanks to Thaksin and the red shirt leaders to further their political goals. The red shirts have been let get away with too much for too long so in their mind, they can do anything with impunity which of course will not be.

A sad sad day for Thailand.

I'm sorry but this is very simplistic thinking - we are at the cusp of a cultural revolution - Thaksin is just a small part of it - some parts we cannot discuss (but the OP alludes to)- some we can. Abhisit HAS to call an election - with dates. Even his Army masters have said there has to be a dissolution - he should stop clinging onto power and let the people decide.

Why do you continue to assume "the people" have anything to do with this? At first I could pass thisoff as naivete or ignorance as you've been here such a short time. I now believe you where your blinders willingly. Get this straight. This has nothing to do with "the people". This is a battle between provincial godfathers and the central government.

You don't need to be rude... it is my position that this part of a larger cultural shift and as such many are used as pawns in the great 'shift' and as such 'the people' have 'everything' to do with it - go study cultural shift (with respect).

[RandyWhite]

He is probably not for off the mark on any point.

Chockdee Thailand

He is, you know.

E.g. Point Six: Khun Anand stated that Chavalit and Somchai, as ex-PMs, should know better, so it seemed pretty weird to him - or words to that effect.

BTW: Red Shirt demonstrators do in fact fit the definition of terrorists as given in the Bangkok Post/ Business Section this week by the apparently misled-by-reds farang citing the internationally accepted criteria to show that Thaksin wasn't one. More weirdness.

Thus, logically Police Captain Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra is a 'sponsor of terrorism'. "Weird scenes inside the goldmine"

Final thought: "It never got weird enough for me." Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Edited April 23, 2010 by RandyWhite

[bangkoklight]

Now Thaksin loyalists — the red shirts — are doing much the same, demanding change through mob behaviour. They believe that they, too, are entitled to act with impunity.

Quite a good piece by the Japanese

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20100423a2.html

The Red shirts don't believe they are entitled to act with impunity. That's not why they are there - so that they can test this belief. They simply believe in a true democracy and the return of the People's Constitution. But they might wonder why there are double standards with regards to the police and army not making any attempt to clear the Yellows from Suvarnabhumi in 2008.

But it is a good read, yes.

Edited April 23, 2010 by bangkoklight

[lannarebirth]

A very simplistic view of the situation. I think that the Government have been very restrained with these loonies and have been reluctant to take a heavy hand because they are hoping to avoid or minimize casualties. Unfortunately for them, the red shirts have taken advantage of this and upped the ante to escalate the confrontation which as sure as night follows day, WILL come.

The sad part about it is that many rank and file red shirts who are rallying on the mistaken belief that this is all about democracy will be merely cannon fodder thanks to Thaksin and the red shirt leaders to further their political goals. The red shirts have been let get away with too much for too long so in their mind, they can do anything with impunity which of course will not be.

A sad sad day for Thailand.

I'm sorry but this is very simplistic thinking - we are at the cusp of a cultural revolution - Thaksin is just a small part of it - some parts we cannot discuss (but the OP alludes to)- some we can. Abhisit HAS to call an election - with dates. Even his Army masters have said there has to be a dissolution - he should stop clinging onto power and let the people decide.

Why do you continue to assume "the people" have anything to do with this? At first I could pass thisoff as naivete or ignorance as you've been here such a short time. I now believe you where your blinders willingly. Get this straight. This has nothing to do with "the people". This is a battle between provincial godfathers and the central government.

You don't need to be rude... it is my position that this part of a larger cultural shift and as such many are used as pawns in the great 'shift' and as such 'the people' have 'everything' to do with it - go study cultural shift (with respect).

You're right , it's about a cultural shift, but it's a shift BACKWARDS to the days where the poor were beholden to their rural chao por. All law, economics, world view stemmend from the feudal families of the provinces. They hate given up that peasantry they fed on for so many years. They hate the fact thatbanks might make loans rather tha loan sharks. That the government establishes price supports for rice, rather than the owner of the local mill just telling you how it is. C'mon man, WAKE UP!

[BKjohn]

de·moc·ra·cy

1.

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2.

a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.

3.

a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4.

political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5.

the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Who are the people of thailand? Do they have equal rights and privileges?

70% of thai population reside outside of cities so if we are talking numbers it brings up an interesting point.

If I voted for a president based on getting a tax break, should I not be allowed to vote?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Democracy

1) politicians make a lot of promises they know they can't keep

2) politicians live the life of Riley on taxpayers expense

3) the politicians main interest is to be re-elected

4) In a democracy a politicians main asset is to be able to lie while appearing totally sincere

What you call privileges and the "elite" are hard working Thais who have made something of themselves and who were fat up with Thaksins blunt theft, using the country as his own PLC. Now they are going on the streets again to fight this Thaksin inspired mob. Thais are free to do as they want. This is a free country for the Thais. What you call underprivileged means really the poor who want more of the cake but are not willing to work for it or are simply not able.

here is some news for you, In Europe and in the USA there are and have always been poor people. You probably don't know that every 6th person in The US of A would go hungry if it wasn't for institutions like the salvation army and others that offer low priced or free food items to those.

In Europe pensioners freeze during the winter because they can not afford to have the heating on.

Communism does not work as the USSR has clearly shown. The poor only get poorer and famine is the result. Communism is the ultimate capitalism with an extremely small elite that has it all and lives in luxury and the majority of the population goes hungry.

The world is not perfect but we have to live here. Those rioters have no right to cause this anarchy and apparently they are not even aware of the real agenda of their leaders.

Edited April 23, 2010 by BKjohn

[dominique355]

...

Never put a politician in charge of military, because they always they put good of themselves before the good of the country

Put that the other way round: Never put a military in charge of politics, because they have no clue what democracy is, they have only learned to give orders and obey.

Democracy is about compromise, negotiating, talk, respect for a different opinion (which you don't share), all things unknown to the military.

Want proof for that? Thailand 2006 - 2007

I believe that the military should always be tightly controlled by the politicians. The toys they play with makes them believe they have the power and can do whatever they want and that's dangerous.

[anotherpeter]

Before elections are called, the constitution needs to be fixed. Otherwise we have the same problems as after the last election.

Everyone agrees it needs to be fixed.

The government has suggested a forum of ALL parties (including community groups) to decide what needs to be in the constitution, with the end result going on the be voted for by the people in a referendum.

Is that a good plan or a bad plan?

[BKjohn]

Before elections are called, the constitution needs to be fixed. Otherwise we have the same problems as after the last election.

Everyone agrees it needs to be fixed.

The government has suggested a forum of ALL parties (including community groups) to decide what needs to be in the constitution, with the end result going on the be voted for by the people in a referendum.

Is that a good plan or a bad plan?

It is a bad plan for the red supporters here and certainly for Thaksin - he wants a coup executed by the reds NOW

Edited April 23, 2010 by BKjohn

[anotherpeter]

please leave quotes around the post that you are quoting (start and end). I can't keep up with what are your comments, and what are others comments.

[jrtmedic]

The histoory of Thai politics is complex and multi-facited. To argue that the present chaos is about "democracy" is a nonsense----------------Its about securing the return to Thailand of a convicted criminal.---------I about securing million baht handouts to villages ---------------necessary now because disadvantaged ,starving rural poor need to replace their aging pick up trucks , motorcycles and mobile phones .!

To those of you that think the present government is illegal ----------------------Logic would sugggest that if that indeed is the case then the previous two governments were also illegal!!!

Let me remind you -----------The UK has an "unelected Prime Minister --------------does that make theUK government illegal?