The Desert Fox And The British Commando

[Gaccha]

Field Marshall Rommel has been put in charge of the defence of the coast of Northern France against the inevitable allied invasion. A commando mapping out the French coast defences is captured and brought to him for interrogation.

Listen to this BBC re-dramatisation of the actual event which is recorded in the German Army archives. Please post your Thai version on here.

D_Day_Rommel_and_Commando.mp3

Be aware that there is in the scene:

Narrator

Rommel

Commando (played by an actor)

The actual commando commenting on his thoughts of the time

Rommel's subordinate (but he says only one word)

And if you are not sure, here is the English script that I typed out (I believe the Thai script simply has long pauses of silence where Rommel speaks German):

Narrator: Rommel often makes a point of personally interrogating captured officers. Not only to extract information but better to judge the calibre of the men he is fighting.

R: These are gangster commandos.

We have orders to [pause- German]… execute saboteurs

C: If you think I am a saboteur then why did you invite me here?

R: [German] So this is an invitation?

C: Yes, and an honour.

R: So, you are ‘commando’?

C:The best soldiers in the World.

C-old: [Then we had this extraordinary conversation which is recorded in the archives of the German High Command word by word. ]

R: How is my friend? Montgomery.

C:Fine, I believe. I only know what I read in the paper.

R: So when is it coming? The invasion.

C: I have no idea. Nobody tells me anything. But if it were up to me I would probably go for the shortest crossing.

R: Hm hm hm hm .

C-old:

C:May I ask a question?

[There I was sitting talking to the top dog general in Germany]

R: Of course.

C:Do you think soldiers are the right people to occupy a country once it has been conquered?

R: Yes, I do.

Of course, we are trained to fight but we are also nah… [German]

General 2: Adaptable

R: I believe a good soldier has a sense of duty, a sense of responsibility… do you agree?

C:I think a good soldier is an honourable soldier.

C-old: [And I said to myself as long as he is enjoying it, I think that might save my neck. ]

R: (Yahult?) It is a pity that Germans and British are not fighting together.

C: Against who?

R: The Russians of course.

C:I thought there are too many differences between us for us to be able to be allies.

R: No. What differences?

C:The treatment of the Jews for example.

[long pause]

R: Now you are talking about politics. It has nothing to do with us.

[commando marched away by guards] Halt. Don’t worry, you’ll not be harmed. You have my word as a fellow soldier.

[German-- ‘They’re coming’]

Ok, chok dee.

[anchan42]

The language is a bit off because of the translation. Everybody sound a bit off.

Narrator: Rommel often makes a point of personally interrogating captured officers. Not only to extract information but better to judge the calibre of the men he is fighting.

รอมเมลมักสอบสวนเจ้าหน้าที่ที่ถูกจับได้เป็นการส่วนตัว ไม่เพียงเพื่อดึงข้อมีแต่เพื่อคะเนสติปัญญาของคู่ต่อสู้ได้ดีขึ้น

R: These are gangster commandos.

We have orders to [pause- German]… execute saboteurs

เราได้รับคำสั่งให้ อ่า....สังหารผู้ก่อวินาศกรรม เข้าใจมั้ย

C: If you think I am a saboteur then why did you invite me here?

ถ้าคิดว่าผมก่อวินาศกรรม คุณเชิญผมมาทำไม

R: [German] So this is an invitation?

นี่เป็นการเชิญอย่างนั้นเรอะ

C: Yes, and an honour.

ใช่ และเป็นเกียรติ

R: So, you are ‘commando’?

คุณเป็นคอมมานโด

C:The best soldiers in the World.

ทหารที่เก่งที่สุดในโลก

C-old: [Then we had this extraordinary conversation which is recorded in the archives of the German High Command word by word. ]

เราสนทนากันในเรื่องที่ไม่ธรรมดาซึ่งถูกบันทึกไว้ในเอกสารสำคัญของเยอรมันนีคำต่อคำ

R: How is my friend? Montgomery.

มอดทะกอมานี่ เพื่อนผมสบายดีมั้ย

C:Fine, I believe. I only know what I read in the paper.

ผมเชื่อว่าสบายดี ผมทราบแค่ที่อ่านในหนังสือพิมพ์เท่านั้น

R: So when is it coming? The invasion.

เมื่อไหร่จะมี เอ่อ....การโจมตี

C: I have no idea. Nobody tells me anything. But if it were up to me I would probably go for the shortest crossing.

ผมไม่ทราบไม่มีใครบอกอะไรผมเลย แต่ถ้าขึ้นที่ผม ผมจาใช้เส้นทางข้ามที่สั้นที่สุด

R: Hm hm hm hm .

C-old:

ผมตะหนักว่ามันเป็นสถานการณ์ที่ที่ประหลาดเอามากมาก

C:May I ask a question?

ขอถามอะไรหน่อยได้มั้ย

[There I was sitting talking to the top dog general in Germany]

ผมนั่งคุยกับนายพลระดับสูงของเยอรมันนี

R: Of course.

ได้ซี

C:Do you think soldiers are the right people to occupy a country once it has been conquered?

คุณคิดว่าทหารมีสิทธครอบครองประเทศหนึ่งที่ถูกพิชิตได้หรือไม่

R: Yes, I do.

ใช้แล้ว

Of course, we are trained to fight but we are also nah… [German]

แน่นอนเราถูกฝึกมาให้สู้แต่เราก็ เอ่อ.........

General 2: Adaptable

ปรับตัวได้

R: I believe a good soldier has a sense of duty, a sense of responsibility… do you agree?

ผมเชื่อว่าทหารที่ดีมีความสำนึกในหน้าที่ และความรับผิดชอบ เห็นด้ วยมั้ย

C:I think a good soldier is an honourable soldier.

ผมคิดว่าทหารที่ดีคือทหารที่มีเกียรติ

C-old: [And I said to myself as long as he is enjoying it, I think that might save my neck. ]

ผมบอกกับตัวเองว่าตราบใดที่เค้าชอบคอผมอาจไม่หลุดจากบ่า

R: (Yahult?) It is a pity that Germans and British are not fighting together.

น่าเสียดายที่เยอรมันนีและอังกฤษไม่สู้ร่วมกัน

C: Against who?

สู้ใคร

R: The Russians of course.

ก็รัสเซืยนะซี

C:I thought there are too many differences between us for us to be able to be allies.

เฮอะ ผมคิดว่ามีความแตกต่างเป็นจำนวนมากระหว่างเราในการเป็นพันธมิตร

R: No. What differences?

ไม่น้า แตกต่างยังไงอะ ฮึ

C:The treatment of the Jews for example.

การปฏิบัติต่อชาวยิวเป็นต้น

[long pause]

R: Now you are talking about politics. It has nothing to do with us.

คุณกะลังพูดเกี่ยวกับการเมืองมันไม่เกี่ยวกับเรา

[commando marched away by guards] Halt. Don’t worry, you’ll not be harmed. You have my word as a fellow soldier.

เดี๋ยว ไม่ต้องห่วงคุณจะไม่ได้รับอันตราย ผมให้คำสัญญาในฐานะทหารด้วยกัน

[German-- ‘They’re coming’]

มันกะลังจะเกิดขึ้นมันจะเกิดขึ้น

[Gaccha]

That's fantastic. I'll stick it on YouTube when I have a spare few hours.

I would congratulate you on your Thai skills, but I think you're a native Thai speaker so that might sound a bit silly...

As for the rest of us: this is now a great learning tool for intermediate learners...

[Gaccha]

Throughout the listening I am startled how hard it is to hear the words, despite the narrator and voiceovers being very clear. The way the consonants are dropped or blurred is astonishing in its level.

Here is a short phrase that most will understand on paper but is a shock to my ear when recorded and repeated. I have recorded it repeated around 20 times in the MP3 file below. Enjoy.

ถ้าคิดว่าผมการ...

"If (you) think that I..."

ta_kit_wa.mp3

(nb. "การ"is the beginning of the word "การก่อวินาศกรรม", act of sabotage)

Proof if proof is needed that it just isn't enough to have subtitles, you have to have a transliteration.

[anchan42]

Throughout the listening I am startled how hard it is to hear the words, despite the narrator and voiceovers being very clear. The way the consonants are dropped or blurred is astonishing in its level.

Here is a short phrase that most will understand on paper but is a shock to my ear when recorded and repeated. I have recorded it repeated around 20 times in the MP3 file below. Enjoy.

ถ้าคิดว่าผมการ...

"If (you) think that I..."

ta_kit_wa.mp3

(nb. "การ"is the beginning of the word "การก่อวินาศกรรม", act of sabotage)

Proof if proof is needed that it just isn't enough to have subtitles, you have to have a transliteration.

I think he said ถ้าคิดว่าผมก่อวินาศกรรม.

The section you have cut out is ถ้าคิดว่าผมก่อ. It is difficult to try to hear การ when he say ก่อ.

ถ้าคิดว่าผมการก่อวินาศกรรม is also gramatically incorrect. ถ้าคิดว่าผมก่อการวินาศกรรม sounds much better.

[Gaccha]

I am not going to let this drop so easily. I am convinced that Thai, just like English, as a tactic for quickening speech, completely distorts the original word pronunications.

Take a listen to this:

Evidence_of_slurring_Part_2.mp3

"ผมคิดว่าทหารที่ดีคือทหารที่มีเกียรติ"

"I think a good soldier is an honourable soldier."

The ผมคิดว่า is utterly slurred. It sounds like this: "ผคิว-า"

Now, the point I am making is quite striking if true. Most languages contract/abbreviate/drop words but very few actually slur. English does this. If you listen to an English speaker say "I am going to the train station" then the "--am going to the--" becomes just one great slur that if recorded and played back slowly has no sounds close to the original words. Of course, this slur is easily identificable and guessable by a native speaker of English. And just as native English speakers don't know they are doing it, so is the same with Thai (I am arguing).

Are there any linguists that can confirm/deny this?

If true, it also brings into question whether it is worth learning the words via flashcard audios of individual words.

[anchan42]

Just noticed there are just you and me on this thread.

I agree with you. I think the slur you are talking about is one aspect of phonology. They are rule-governed. Otherwise even native speakers would have difficulty guessing what actually being said. There are a lot of books discussing this on the English language but I think it is not well studied and well published for Thai language.

[uppalux]

May I join you?

I agree with you that slur and distort while phoning.

Like ก็ว่านะ (ko wa na (I think so) -- normal talking kind of "I think so" than the formal "ผมเห็นด้วยกับคุณเหมือนกัน")

Native speaker will pronounce this fast and almost in one syll (be like kwa na)

ิีิBut the problem come at this point to

As you're listener and still not used to a word . knew it , but never heard it in real speak and just don't catch it while on conversation.

but if you're a speaker , emphasizing a wrong part of word may lead to missunderstanding. (trying to say ก็ว่านะ but too serious to pronounce it properly and it come out like drawl (I don't know if I'm using a right word here , come out from a dict) ) will come out as ko~~~ wa na. this will sound a little "ironic" to a Thai native.

I think it's good to learning a real word pronounciation and have a real talk.

like , find some thai movie and watch with subtitle on. or find a English speaking native thai neighbor.

[RickBradford]

The slurring defeats me, too. I can pretty much understand Abhisit on TV, but not Noi when she gets angry in the Thai soapie 'Sky Dragon'.....

EDIT: In the first narration bit, doesn't he say 'ข้อมูล' for information, not 'ข้อมี'

Edited May 10, 2010 by RickBradford

[anchan42]

The slurring defeats me, too. I can pretty much understand Abhisit on TV, but not Noi when she gets angry in the Thai soapie 'Sky Dragon'.....

EDIT: In the first narration bit, doesn't he say 'ข้อมูล' for information, not 'ข้อมี'

Sorry for the typo. ข้อมูล is correct.

Back to ผมคิดว่า part. For me the ม and ด are definitely there. Unlike their counter part in English plosive in Thai at the end of a syllable are not released.

They might be difficult to pick up.

I think it is a matter of training you ears. The first time I heard people say “god dam_n it”. I thought they said “God damaged”.

A few of my friends have difficulty picking up O in “double O seven” in 007 movies but for me the O is loud and clear.

[Gaccha]

The slurring defeats me, too. I can pretty much understand Abhisit on TV, but not Noi when she gets angry in the Thai soapie 'Sky Dragon'.....

EDIT: In the first narration bit, doesn't he say 'ข้อมูล' for information, not 'ข้อมี'

Sorry for the typo. ข้อมูล is correct.

Back to ผมคิดว่า part. For me the ม and ด are definitely there. Unlike their counter part in English plosive in Thai at the end of a syllable are not released.

They might be difficult to pick up.

I think it is a matter of training you ears. The first time I heard people say "god dam_n it". I thought they said "God damaged".

A few of my friends have difficulty picking up O in "double O seven" in 007 movies but for me the O is loud and clear.

Crikey, that just raises the issue of variations within the population. It seems there are various 'speak styles' and one is, as above, like a slur to my untrained ear. Or perhaps... if we consider your 007 comment I might still be right.

I would say the 'O' in double O is not there, at least it is pronounced so differently that is slurred out of existence, even though native speakers are convinced it is there. Record it and cut it from context. Then ask a native speaker what the sound is-- bet they can't.

A native speaker 'hears' gaps between words, even though there are definitely no gaps. I have noticed that for the first week or two listening to a new language it just sounds like an unintellgible slur of sounds with no gaps. But that sense is soon lost (in just two weeks) with a definite feeling of gaps between words arising.

Let's seize an analogy. A pitch tuner to the untrained musical ear just sounds like a noise. But musically trained people say they can hear a 'double' vibration sound. The gap of languages and the double vibration are, it seems to be, ephiphenomena of your brain conquering new issues.

Still, could be completely wrong...

[anchan42]

Crikey, that just raises the issue of variations within the population. It seems there are various 'speak styles' and one is, as above, like a slur to my untrained ear. Or perhaps... if we consider your 007 comment I might still be right.

I would say the 'O' in double O is not there, at least it is pronounced so differently that is slurred out of existence, even though native speakers are convinced it is there. Record it and cut it from context. Then ask a native speaker what the sound is-- bet they can't.

A native speaker 'hears' gaps between words, even though there are definitely no gaps. I have noticed that for the first week or two listening to a new language it just sounds like an unintellgible slur of sounds with no gaps. But that sense is soon lost (in just two weeks) with a definite feeling of gaps between words arising.

Let's seize an analogy. A pitch tuner to the untrained musical ear just sounds like a noise. But musically trained people say they can hear a 'double' vibration sound. The gap of languages and the double vibration are, it seems to be, ephiphenomena of your brain conquering new issues.

Still, could be completely wrong...

Tricky indeed.. If I tried to drop the ม and ด, It would sound like I was trying to mock Chinese people who could not pronounced Thai words properly. ม and ด is definitely physically there. They might assimilate with adjacent sounds and change somewhat. That I could not tell. Probably an disadvantage of native ears.

O in double O seven must also be there. Changed it might have but not gone completely otherwise the distinction between double seven and double O seven would be gone. That would create confusion.

Telling word/syllable boundary requires not only the knowledge of sounds in a language but also lexicon, grammar and collocation.

English is probably more difficult than Thai because (as far as I am aware of anyway) the consonant sounds are the same whether they are at the beginning or at the end. English native will have opposite opinion.

[Gaccha]

Here is what you have been waiting for: Intermediate/Advanced listening practice book-- Desert Fox and Commando

Features

the English language transcript

a Thai language transcript

(in two font styles)

a romanization of the Thai (sentence by sentence)

a breakdown of every single word

all tricky words translated

How to use

Do not read the English script first. Simply listen to each sentence 10 times or so, write down what you understand, then look at the Thai transcript. If still difficult look at romanization if tricky spelling, or English translation if tricky meaning.

Listen to them all in this way, should be extremely enjoyable (you will feel a thrill of success when you can listen to the whole transcript and understand everything).

It took hours to do it so download it just to make me feel better Cheers

The same style can be found in an earlier post by me of 'Ghandi and the reverend' and the "redshirt protests'. Because of the level of detail it is 20 pages long.

D_Day_Rommel_and_Commando_FINAL1.PDF

[RickBradford]

Simply listen to each sentence 10 times or so, write down what you understand, then look at the Thai transcript

Yes, this is the method which was known as 'dictée' (dictation) when I was learning French at school, and is a good, challenging way to learn.

(By the way, I downloaded it, but because I use Chrome, which opens PDFs directly in the browser, it doesn't add to the 'number of downloads' figure.)

[Gaccha]

Simply listen to each sentence 10 times or so, write down what you understand, then look at the Thai transcript

Yes, this is the method which was known as 'dictée' (dictation) when I was learning French at school, and is a good, challenging way to learn.

(By the way, I downloaded it, but because I use Chrome, which opens PDFs directly in the browser, it doesn't add to the 'number of downloads' figure.)

That means two downloads so far

I really like this method. When I was learning Japanese I went through the Hollywood movie Apollo 13. Interestingly there is still one sentence in this movie that I cannot catch (by the way, if anyone has seen this movie on sale anywhere in Bangkok let me know as it is proving incredibly difficult to find...). I can now without a second's thought understand "orbital re-enty plan" in japanese, but unfortunately, not many people say that.