Open Letter To Red-Shirt Leader Dr Weng Tojirakarn

[scorecard]

Now with more people in Thailand who can think as straight as this person

Problem solved

Showed the wife his letter and she said in Thai, he should be in Paliement not the idiots we now have

Please aloow me to extent the comment further.

I have lived and worked in Thailand more than two decades as a professional consultant and lecturer. I can assure everyone that there are many very capable, sincere and honest Thais who would love to contribute to the development of a civil society and to building policies and laws etc which would create a more equitable Thailand, increased quality of life for all, better sharing of the wealth for all Thais, equal opportunity, and equal justice for all Thais.

The problem is the past (and not yet finished) is that the capable and sincere people never stepped forward to join the various political parties, simply because they didn't want to be associated with the large numbers of incapable and dishonest murky characters who have dominated Thai politics since 1932.

[321niti123]

Now with more people in Thailand who can think as straight as this person

Problem solved

Showed the wife his letter and she said in Thai, he should be in Paliement not the idiots we now have

Please spare the BS, as anyone with half a brain can see that this "letter" was just fabricated to try once again to sway opinions in favour of the terrorists.

It's very clear for most people to see that this movement is so singlemindedly meant to achieve one thing and that's to assist Taksin at the expense of thailand. Obviously there is a ton of money being exchanged to achieve this, but I'll betcha the people living in the streets won't see any of it at the end of the day.

no offense, but in my opinion your comment is very narrow minded. The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies, not all reds want thaksin back, I expect that a majority only support the reds because its the closest thing they have to what they want. Some reds know what thaksin has done but still think he is better than anyone else that has every been in power, even though he is corrupt, he still throws some of the crumbs to the poor which is the most they ever got from the government.

Finally through the words of my teachers "Truth and knowledge cannot be found through a single source but through a combination of all views and opinions"

[rixalex]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

[Jingthing]

The reds have reasonable policies? Such as? As reasonable as their terrorist tactics, are they? Would you trust a government run by these rebels?

[321niti123]

Now that Abhsit is a complete laughing stock,

Only amongst the reds and they have been programmed to think that no matter what the man does.

with Thailand on the brink of civil war,

Civil war is not going to happen, as much as the reds may push things in that direction. There are too many peace-loving Thais to let it get that far.

with the Dems facing their own bans from politics, where do you stand,

Where i stand is exactly where i stood regarding the PPP being disbanded. If they have done wrong and the Thai judiciary says so, they must be punished and must accept their punishment.

I'm more interested to know where the reds stand on this. They have continually mocked and questioned the ruling that went against them. I want to know how consistant they will be with their beliefs about courts and kangaroos.

I dont really want to bud in but here i see two extremes.

1st: Abhisit is not a laughing stock, he is doing the best he can however I agree that his work as of late has been very sloppy and has been the laugh of the world (i am ofcourse talking about the incident with arisman escaping, not being able to control the mob, and not making a decisive decision)

2nd: Thailand is on a brink of civil war no doubt. To Rixalex: it does not take even 25% of the population to start a civil war, look at the russian civil war or the chinese civil war, most people warent even involved, specific group fighting other specific group while the general public just stayed out of it. We do not know what will happen in the near future, we can only hope for the best-that is no civil war.

3rd: I have to agree with rixalex on this one. If the judges say its wrong then its wrong. I know the judiciary is known to be corrupt to a certain level but if we dont respect the judge then the only other option is anarchy and i dont ever want that to happen

[321niti123]

The reds have reasonable policies? Such as? As reasonable as their terrorist tactics, are they? Would you trust a government run by these rebels?

One...there is a double standard in thailand...whether that be against the reds or for the reds it is still double standard and should be dealt with.

two...there is a class difference in thailand, there is no doubt about that and we should try to reduce the difference between the rich and the poor.

the constitution is not perfect and should be ammended (after a general election-this is where i hate their leaders and i dont agree to converting back to the '97 one that caused all the problem, i dont know why they want the 97 back since the 07 one was democratically voted and agreed upon constitution)

those two are very noble policies and a lot of the supporters are supportive of the UDD because of this.

Even though i praise their policies, i cannot condone their actions (this is where you may have misunderstood me), I believe that only a fraction of the UDD support violence and the only news on the UDD (or any other subject for that matter) focuses on the violence because humans by nature like violence. I however, completely hate thaksin and the red leaders because they are using these policies as propaganda for the poor to fulfill their own selfish needs.

Ohh one more thing, i dont want thailand to be a republic, i believe that the king is a great role model and inspires all thais

Dont just look at one point of view, to be a intellectual person you have to look at all points of view and analyze each point (thats what IB taught me-kinda brainwashed and over my head with work, im procrastinating on hwk right now lol)

[jayjay0]

First off, I don't think this letter needs to be anchoring a new thread. There are already so many threads on T.Visa which focus on the ongoing protest.

Secondly, I think the writer, though a refined and thoughtful person, is pussy footing around the issue. In true Thai fashion, he doesn't get to the meat of the matter. The first half and the last part of the letter refer to his personal relationship with Weng. He also states the sobering issue that he was trepidatious about writing the letter for concerns of recriminations against him, his family and his property. That's a concern in this imbroglio: anyone who speaks out against the Reds risks bodily harm, to himself, his family and his property. It's like speaking out against the mafia (in the US or Italy) or speaking out against anything Chinese in China.

With dire restrictions like that, it's no wonder there aren't more people speaking out against the Reds shirts. No one wants threats from rowdies with automatic weapons and bombs who have proven they're eager to use them.

I strongly disagree with you on the letter anchoring a new thread. It is about time we get a honest opinion free of peoples fear of Thaksin and peoples devotion to Thaksin. No he did not go into the meat of the matter. That was not his intention in writing this. He merely stated his opinion based on his personal knowledge of the man.

I digress where you really showed your true colors was in calling them [rowdies with automatic weapons and bombs who have proven they're eager to use them.] If that were the case this would have been over long ago. Perhaps you would do well to read some of the threads you will notice there is lots speaking out against the red shirts. I personally would like to here some of them speak out against the red shirts reasoning. Not what People perceive them to be doing. Do not forget for one moment who bore the brunt of the damage done on April 10 It was the red shirts. Maybe it is time for you to put your yellow shirt on.

[jayjay0]

You're blind to the connection of this time with today's events, in addition to your lack of knowledge. I could elaborate further in for eample explaining how they got caught and arrested together in the 70's by the covert special ops operating under a certain Chavalit. All of these points have a direct relevance to the actual events but I suspect it's useless to go on since you prefer to use the same few statements for every thread dealing with the matter. I can accept your siding with the red shirts and your convictions in that regard, let's just leave it like that.

Btw: Veerasak would be the last to wave a yellow flag. That little statement said a whole lot more about you than Veerasak!

Umm, so your point is that these guys may have once shared the same politcal beliefs, which may not correspond to the beliefs they now hold some 40 years later. That's a real surprise. After all, life often does that to people - it changes us as we get older. Are you the same as you were 40 years ago? Probably not. What may have once been brothers in arms while they were idealistic youths, are now after all these years of going their separate ways very likely different in their aspirations and world view.

So how is this in any way relevant news, worthy of report in a national 'independent' newspaper, and not just another pice of the NATION propaganda, i.e. reporting one side as if there is no other side, and in doing so not letting adults make up their own mind?

clockwork what are you on about. This thread is not about the Nation and its failings. If you have some information let us know. After all they were arrested together less than 40 years ago . Yes people change but that does not mean no body can see the change. Put both the oars in the water and give us something other than your hatred for the Nation. Have you ever been to Thailand?

[nickupton]

Now why on earth would the NATION dredge up one of Weng's old teachers from years back and use him to call on the red shirts to back down, and not the government. Strange how the NATION would take a position like that, when it is normally so neutral.

Yes, lets have some quality, investigative reporting from a balanced source. Truth Today anyone?

[ThisIsMadness]

You're blind to the connection of this time with today's events, in addition to your lack of knowledge. I could elaborate further in for eample explaining how they got caught and arrested together in the 70's by the covert special ops operating under a certain Chavalit. All of these points have a direct relevance to the actual events but I suspect it's useless to go on since you prefer to use the same few statements for every thread dealing with the matter. I can accept your siding with the red shirts and your convictions in that regard, let's just leave it like that.

Btw: Veerasak would be the last to wave a yellow flag. That little statement said a whole lot more about you than Veerasak!

Umm, so your point is that these guys may have once shared the same politcal beliefs, which may not correspond to the beliefs they now hold some 40 years later. That's a real surprise. After all, life often does that to people - it changes us as we get older. Are you the same as you were 40 years ago? Probably not. What may have once been brothers in arms while they were idealistic youths, are now after all these years of going their separate ways very likely different in their aspirations and world view.

So how is this in any way relevant news, worthy of report in a national 'independent' newspaper, and not just another pice of the NATION propaganda, i.e. reporting one side as if there is no other side, and in doing so not letting adults make up their own mind?

clockwork what are you on about. This thread is not about the Nation and its failings. If you have some information let us know. After all they were arrested together less than 40 years ago . Yes people change but that does not mean no body can see the change. Put both the oars in the water and give us something other than your hatred for the Nation. Have you ever been to Thailand?

I think he applied for a mail boy job ,but was turned down no doubt

And i would also love to know about that Clockwork,have you ever been here apart from on your little hols

Your posts bile out views,i cant believe many people would hold if they actually had more than 10 mins life experience here.

[Flory]

It's kind of been said, but unfortunately, you can't go about reading something like this and just take it at face value. You've got to look underneath everything that's being said to read it at all intelligently. That's just the nature of editorials and "open letters." If it were a sincere appeal from one old friend to another, it would have been sent to Weng and Weng only. Since it's published for all to see, there are obviously other layers to look for.

[eggomaniac]

Now with more people in Thailand who can think as straight as this person

Problem solved

Showed the wife his letter and she said in Thai, he should be in Paliement not the idiots we now have

Please spare the BS, as anyone with half a brain can see that this "letter" was just fabricated to try once again to sway opinions in favour of the terrorists.

It's very clear for most people to see that this movement is so singlemindedly meant to achieve one thing and that's to assist Taksin at the expense of thailand. Obviously there is a ton of money being exchanged to achieve this, but I'll betcha the people living in the streets won't see any of it at the end of the day.

Troll right? The man used intelligence to explain the situation very clearly and courage to try to reason with the reds to use noble tactics.

Because of the idiot reds and idiot yellows he might have put himself and family in danger for speaking up, in the crossfire.

If the reds and yellows could even grasp the concept that 70% of Thais hate both groups, maybe they would give their heads a big shake. A win by EITHER side is a LOSS for Thailand!

Thailand needs a White Shirt movement to wash the reds AND the yellows out of the pig troughs of government. THAT is the cause and root of ALL the troubles, TWO warring gangs trying to get into the seats of corruption to fill their pockets.

Kill one crocodile, another pops up. THE SWAMP HAS TO DRAINED.

The Joseph Solution and The Joseph Plan could bring stability, peace, and ETHICAL prosperity to Thailand within weeks to months!

[scorecard]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

Agree, what policies? Would appeeciate if you could share some of their actual specific policies.

[yoshiwara]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

Agree, what policies? Would appeeciate if you could share some of their actual specific policies.

Economic policies there are none.

Not one.

Now why do the reds have no economic policies and why do the forum red apologists never ever reply to this question?

because if they dared, it would expose the class war shouting as the nonsense it is.

It would upset Thaksin's regional class allies for a start.

And second Thaksin has no economic policies because for him economic policy is what goes in his pocket plus Mother Theresa handouts.

Ask the question again.

What are the economic policies of the red leadership in Bangkok?

The answer is silence.

[lennon]

It's kind of been said, but unfortunately, you can't go about reading something like this and just take it at face value. You've got to look underneath everything that's being said to read it at all intelligently. That's just the nature of editorials and "open letters." If it were a sincere appeal from one old friend to another, it would have been sent to Weng and Weng only. Since it's published for all to see, there are obviously other layers to look for.

it is a bit like tom-yam-soup.? a bit of everything?

[gregb]

with the Dems facing their own bans from politics, where do you stand,

Where i stand is exactly where i stood regarding the PPP being disbanded. If they have done wrong and the Thai judiciary says so, they must be punished and must accept their punishment.

I'm more interested to know where the reds stand on this. They have continually mocked and questioned the ruling that went against them. I want to know how consistant they will be with their beliefs about courts and kangaroos.

Absolutely. I fully expect to see the reds standing up and screaming about double standards when the Democrats get dissolved the same way they did when it was the PPP on the hot seat. After all, the courts are terribly biased. I mean, the multi hour judgement they read out against Thaksin was clearly all simply made up. None of that could possibly have been true. Thaksin was clearly an innocent angel who did nothing wrong and should be allowed to continue raping and pillaging the country no matter how much damage he did.

Please. The current court is actually extraordinarily fair. Nothing like the court that existed in 2001 when Thaksin managed to bribe his way to a not guilty verdict by the slimest of margins and through extraordinarily questionable legal opinions. But I guess the reds would say the courts were fair back then.

Until people start respecting the rule of law, nothing else matters. And the current court does respect the rule of law. This annoys the red shirts no end, as they are more corrupt than anybody else and usually wind up on the wrong side of this precedent.

If the reds want real democracy, they should start by not paying the police on the side of the road for their traffic violations. All the sicknesses that led to this conflict originate from there and grow their way into bigger and nastier problems. As long as anyone in Thailand thinks this kind of behavior is acceptable, there can never be true democracy.

A new election will not cure what ills Thailand. Only a change in attitude that would slowly eliminate the patronage society over time. A change that the red paymasters are terrified to let happen. Funny that the Bangkok middle class, who are the most independent and critical of the patronage society, are also the ones who are most staunchly opposed to the red shirts. Makes you wonder who is really fighting for democracy in this battle, and who is fighting for continued tyranny.

The red shirts have lost all credibility. Just go home while you still have some face to save.

[ThisIsMadness]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

Cant wait for this one ,please lets hear it

He would be the first

[Koh_Falang]

If the reds want real democracy, they should start by not paying the police on the side of the road for their traffic violations. All the sicknesses that led to this conflict originate from there and grow their way into bigger and nastier problems. As long as anyone in Thailand thinks this kind of behavior is acceptable, there can never be true democracy.

Totally agree

This seems to be the underlying problem in Thailand where morals are not instilled and therefore anyone with a bit of money can do what the hel_l they like...

It may take a few generations to work these morals in... until then, i think the same sort of problems will continue or get worse....

[clockworkorange]

I'm more interested to know where the reds stand on this. They have continually mocked and questioned the ruling that went against them. I want to know how consistant they will be with their beliefs about courts and kangaroos.

There you go again! First you have nothing more to say to cover up for your ever changing values, then you start banging on about court cases again in the hope that you will shut up any opposing viewpoint in this forum. We all know what happens next - you challenge posters to question the wisdom of court judgments, which is against Thai law. Then, you report them to the mods for breaking the rules and get their posts deleted, leaving only your posts on the forum.

Fact is, even though there were court judgements that we are not going to discuss here, Thailand is a riot at the moment. Should the large proportion of the Thai population who seem to disgree with the court judgements be rounded up and thrown in jail? Or, should big brother try to help them to see the 'truth' by putting such people into re-education camps? History shows that repression always starts the same way, but with even the Nation castigating Abhisit for using the name of the monarchy yet again as a pretext to silence his opponents, tell me exactly what is is you believe in, because it certainly isn't a democratic society.

You do sound just like Abhisit - claiming ownership of the rule book, and accusing eveyone who is against him of being against the monarchy, just to try to shut people up who actually hold the monarchy is just as high esteem as he does. Are the two of you related?

[clockworkorange]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

Hmmmm, let me think .....

Well, there is this policy called democracy for starters, which you may not have heard of. It's a system, quite common around the free world, whereby people get the opportunity to elect their leaders, who are then allowed to govern them without intervention by the army. This same system would also give Abhisit the opportunity to come out of this mess as a hero. He could call an election, defeat the reds peacefully at the ballt box, making them lose face completely. Such a victory would propel him overnight from lame duck to statesman like status in Thailand and around the world. The reds asked for an election accusing him of being undemocratic, he held one, and beat them at their own game!

All Abhisit has to do is get elected to turn things around. Now, why might he be afraid to hold an election? Could it be that people won't vote for him, and that he is afraid to lose his job?

[clockworkorange]

clockwork what are you on about. This thread is not about the Nation and its failings. If you have some information let us know. After all they were arrested together less than 40 years ago . Yes people change but that does not mean no body can see the change. Put both the oars in the water and give us something other than your hatred for the Nation. Have you ever been to Thailand?

This thread is about a newspaper article, and I am questioning the credibility of the newspaper that calls itself 'independent'. I am wondering why it publishes the opinion of just one very distant associate of Weng, wnd not other more recent and relevant opinions.

And since you ask, I have been to Thailand, thanks. I'm Thai, actually, not that it makes any difference to whther or not the Nation is a reliable source of informaion.

[clockworkorange]

And i would also love to know about that Clockwork,have you ever been here apart from on your little hols

Your posts bile out views,i cant believe many people would hold if they actually had more than 10 mins life experience here.

Another case of:

'I don't have anything of substance to offer in the discussion, so I will claim to know Thailand better than you do, so there'.

[rixalex]

I'm more interested to know where the reds stand on this. They have continually mocked and questioned the ruling that went against them. I want to know how consistant they will be with their beliefs about courts and kangaroos.

There you go again! First you have nothing more to say to cover up for your ever changing values,

Where have my values changed? Be specific.

then you start banging on about court cases again in the hope that you will shut up any opposing viewpoint in this forum. We all know what happens next - you challenge posters to question the wisdom of court judgments, which is against Thai law. Then, you report them to the mods for breaking the rules and get their posts deleted, leaving only your posts on the forum.

This is not the first time you have thrown this completely baseless and untrue accusation at me. The rules of Thaivisa are available for everyone to see and we all have to follow them. If you have something to say that violates those rules that is your problem. Don't whinge to me about it because i simply don't care. Take your concerns to a moderator, i'm sure they'll be happy to hear from you.

[rixalex]

Fact is, even though there were court judgements that we are not going to discuss here, Thailand is a riot at the moment. Should the large proportion of the Thai population who seem to disgree with the court judgements be rounded up and thrown in jail? Or, should big brother try to help them to see the 'truth' by putting such people into re-education camps? History shows that repression always starts the same way, but with even the Nation castigating Abhisit for using the name of the monarchy yet again as a pretext to silence his opponents, tell me exactly what is is you believe in, because it certainly isn't a democratic society.

Rambling incoherent nonsense.

You do sound just like Abhisit - claiming ownership of the rule book, and accusing eveyone who is against him of being against the monarchy, just to try to shut people up who actually hold the monarchy is just as high esteem as he does. Are the two of you related?

Again more of the wild and tiresome accusations. Please quote where i have accused anyone of being against the Monarchy. You can't, because i haven't. You've completely lost the plot and it's obviously pointless trying to have a reasoned discussion with you.

[whybother]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

Hmmmm, let me think .....

Well, there is this policy called democracy for starters, which you may not have heard of. It's a system, quite common around the free world, whereby people get the opportunity to elect their leaders, who are then allowed to govern them without intervention by the army. This same system would also give Abhisit the opportunity to come out of this mess as a hero. He could call an election, defeat the reds peacefully at the ballt box, making them lose face completely. Such a victory would propel him overnight from lame duck to statesman like status in Thailand and around the world. The reds asked for an election accusing him of being undemocratic, he held one, and beat them at their own game!

All Abhisit has to do is get elected to turn things around. Now, why might he be afraid to hold an election? Could it be that people won't vote for him, and that he is afraid to lose his job?

You mean democracy ... where the people vote for MPs and those MPs vote for the PM, right?

Can you explain what part of that that the reds don't have?

Just because most of the elected MPs do not support the party that the reds support does not make it undemocratic.

Edited April 29, 2010 by whybother

[rixalex]

The reds have reasonable policies and justification for their policies,

Let's be hearing them then.

Hmmmm, let me think .....

Well, there is this policy called democracy for starters, which you may not have heard of. It's a system, quite common around the free world, whereby people get the opportunity to elect their leaders, who are then allowed to govern them without intervention by the army.

You believe governments should be allowed to govern without intervention by the army, yet you are quite happy if the intervention is coming from a violent minority group on the streets.

[Koh_Falang]

clockwork what are you on about. This thread is not about the Nation and its failings. If you have some information let us know. After all they were arrested together less than 40 years ago . Yes people change but that does not mean no body can see the change. Put both the oars in the water and give us something other than your hatred for the Nation. Have you ever been to Thailand?

This thread is about a newspaper article, and I am questioning the credibility of the newspaper that calls itself 'independent'. I am wondering why it publishes the opinion of just one very distant associate of Weng, wnd not other more recent and relevant opinions.

And since you ask, I have been to Thailand, thanks. I'm Thai, actually, not that it makes any difference to whther or not the Nation is a reliable source of informaion.

Sorry Clockwork... the posts before you were questioning the credibility of this particular report... No one cares about the credibility of the paper, we know its biased... big deal... this post isnt about the credibility of a paper... stay on track buddy...

So instead of ignoring my requests, why dont you back up your claim and show me where, within this article, there is "reporting one side as if there is no other side"

Im trying to stick with you on this buddy but so far you are making claims that you are yet to back up with logic and proof...

[way2muchcoffee]

Rixalex and Clockwork. We all get annoyed with other folks from time to time. A series of flames usually follows for a while, totally derailing the discussion at hand. Please stick to the topic if you wouldn't mind. You can trade insults all day using the PM function and not risk ruining a pretty good thread.

Edited April 29, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[ThisIsMadness]

clockwork what are you on about. This thread is not about the Nation and its failings. If you have some information let us know. After all they were arrested together less than 40 years ago . Yes people change but that does not mean no body can see the change. Put both the oars in the water and give us something other than your hatred for the Nation. Have you ever been to Thailand?

This thread is about a newspaper article, and I am questioning the credibility of the newspaper that calls itself 'independent'. I am wondering why it publishes the opinion of just one very distant associate of Weng, wnd not other more recent and relevant opinions.

And since you ask, I have been to Thailand, thanks. I'm Thai, actually, not that it makes any difference to whther or not the Nation is a reliable source of informaion.

Of course you are tiger !

A last and desperate attempt to justify your inflated ego and lack of substance in your arguments

Trot on mate

[asiawatcher]

First off, I don't think this letter needs to be anchoring a new thread. There are already so many threads on T.Visa which focus on the ongoing protest.

Secondly, I think the writer, though a refined and thoughtful person, is pussy footing around the issue. In true Thai fashion, he doesn't get to the meat of the matter. The first half and the last part of the letter refer to his personal relationship with Weng. He also states the sobering issue that he was trepidatious about writing the letter for concerns of recriminations against him, his family and his property. That's a concern in this imbroglio: anyone who speaks out against the Reds risks bodily harm, to himself, his family and his property. It's like speaking out against the mafia (in the US or Italy) or speaking out against anything Chinese in China.

With dire restrictions like that, it's no wonder there aren't more people speaking out against the Reds shirts. No one wants threats from rowdies with automatic weapons and bombs who have proven they're eager to use them.

It is a letter written by a Thai for his Thai fellows. Your reference to true Thai fashion seems frankly said useless in that relation. You would have to read between the lines to get the message.

That is why Brahmburgers didn't get it.