Reminder To Americans About Foreign Bank Account Reporting

[Jingthing]

To the people who say they are looking for big fish, sure they are, but like all laws all kinds of people get swept up in it.

[maxman71]

The FBAR asks WHEN you opened the accounts? That is news to me. Did that start this year? I haven't filed for 2009 tax year yet but last year it didn't ask that.

I stand corrected; the FBAR form from 2008 does not require reporting the date the account(s) were opened.

However, if they were to check with your bank, the IRS could find this out anyway; the US and Thailand have a tax treaty in place.

Apologies for any confusion.

[maxman71]

I didn't file a US tax return for 16 years as I thought that it wasn't required as I was living and paying taxes in other countries, had no assets or dependents in the US and etc...I then ran into another US expat who knew the score and he said 'oh, dear...you could be in a lot of trouble...'

on further investigation from a tax accountant in BKK I found that filing retro-actively for 6 previous tax years will satisfy any IRS curiosity in this regard without any penalties...however, this was 7 years ago and with all the recent legislation I'm not sure what the story presently is...

Tutiswarrior--

Not sure you're getting the correct info. If you were required to file during any of those past years and you owed money, you would be subject to penalties, interest and possibly fines from what I understand and believe.

Depending on the amount of your taxable income, you may not have been required to file anything.

But, the US does require you include all your income worldwide in making that determination. Doesn't matter if you hold assets in the US or not.

Please, don't go by what you are hearing from word of mouth, or even what I am saying. I am not a CPA, tax attorney, a current or past IRS agent or anything like that. But I have read up a lot on this.

What I strongly urge you to do is get in contact with a competent US tax professional and review your situation with them. I am just providing information and not at all advising people what to do in their specific situation. Us Yanks need to stick together and share information. We're "not in Kansas anymore Toto..."

[Jingthing]

Not everyone is required to file taxes, especially low income people under the filing threshold. Personally I don't owe taxes but I have to file because of my equities sales; it LOOKS like I might owe them based on the gross amounts of the sales. So I need to report the actual profit amounts. It is easy enough to find the filing threshold on the IRS site. I bet many English teachers in Thailand don't need to file, etc. However, even if you don't need to file, you may still need to file FBAR depending on the amount in foreign accounts.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Jingthing

[maxman71]

To the people who say they are looking for big fish, sure they are, but like all laws all kinds of people get swept up in it.

Very true. Sooner or later, they will start checking out people with accounts in non-tax haven countries. At least that's my take on it.

Better to come clean as soon as you can, rather than wait for them to find you.

[mellow1]

I keep enough for the visa requirements, and haven't thought about it in the past. Our bank account is a joint account with my (Thai) wife,

I did not know that was possible....I always thought the account to satisfy visa's had to be in the expats name alone.

I would think if a joint account is in fact allowed you have no worries

After last years Visa renewal I was told By Thai Immigration that this year, when renewing My visa I would need an account in my name only. I will of course comply with this, but maybe it has something to do with the disclosure laws. As I said previously, I am not into evading taxes, or breaking any other laws for that matter. I'm a US citizen, and never would I want to change that status. This is all due to a lack of interest in such matters, and my fault of course. But a 10,000 dollar fine would really put the hurt on us, for quite some time.

[Tanaka]

Is this a joke? If not, it is beyond being pathetic, evenfor the US.

quote: "- The US Congress very recently passed a bill that required foreign banks to collect and report to the IRS US citizen ID on all their accounts."unquote.

And how does the Congress imply they do this? They do not have jurisdiction over foreign banks. And any interest I might receive here in a Thai bank is also taxed here. So no tax in the US.

[tutsiwarrior]

I didn't file a US tax return for 16 years as I thought that it wasn't required as I was living and paying taxes in other countries, had no assets or dependents in the US and etc...I then ran into another US expat who knew the score and he said 'oh, dear...you could be in a lot of trouble...'

on further investigation from a tax accountant in BKK I found that filing retro-actively for 6 previous tax years will satisfy any IRS curiosity in this regard without any penalties...however, this was 7 years ago and with all the recent legislation I'm not sure what the story presently is...

Tutiswarrior--

Not sure you're getting the correct info. If you were required to file during any of those past years and you owed money, you would be subject to penalties, interest and possibly fines from what I understand and believe.

Depending on the amount of your taxable income, you may not have been required to file anything.

But, the US does require you include all your income worldwide in making that determination. Doesn't matter if you hold assets in the US or not.

Please, don't go by what you are hearing from word of mouth, or even what I am saying. I am not a CPA, tax attorney, a current or past IRS agent or anything like that. But I have read up a lot on this.

What I strongly urge you to do is get in contact with a competent US tax professional and review your situation with them. I am just providing information and not at all advising people what to do in their specific situation. Us Yanks need to stick together and share information. We're "not in Kansas anymore Toto..."

I estimated my income for the previous 6 years as I worked for foreign companies that did not report my income to the IRS...with the exclusion I was under the limit; I worked in the UK for a number of years where university qualified engineers make about the same as rubbish collectors...I can not back up my income declaration with bank documentation if the IRS wanted to get nasty; who holds bank statements from 15 years ago?

ain't no use'n gettin' worried at this point...they ain't gonna get no money if they try to bust me 'cause I ain't got none...but they can always attempt to make my life miserable like not renewing my passport, etc...anyone notice that your social security number (AKA tax ID number) is now required for routine applications like extra passport pages?

there are indeed dark times ahead as the US treasury dept has got to find money to pay for stupid wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and ludicrous efforts to buttress monopoly capitalism at home...I try to mind my own business as an expatriate american but this will soon not be possible whatever yer income happens to be...

Kansas? who said anything about Kansas? I grew up near LA...an' I don't like dogs neither; they bite, have rabies an' fleas and are generally unpleasant creatures...and yeah...we gotta stick together as no struggle is ever won by individuals...

ever onward to victory...venceremos...

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

IMHO things are going to get much worse before they get better, The reporting requirement for banks does not really kick in until January 2013. At that time, or much sooner the foreign bankers are going to look at the amount of paperwork required to satisfy big brother. I think the majority of them will say easy solution is not to handle accounts for US citizens.

Then you will not be able to get a foreign bank account. It is already starting.

[flying]

I think the majority of them will say easy solution is not to handle accounts for US citizens.

Then you will not be able to get a foreign bank account. It is already starting.

If True

That will make things a bit tough for Expats to satisfy the visa requirement of having xxx baht in a seasoned Thai Bank account.

[craigt3365]

Is this a joke? If not, it is beyond being pathetic, evenfor the US.

quote: "- The US Congress very recently passed a bill that required foreign banks to collect and report to the IRS US citizen ID on all their accounts."unquote.

And how does the Congress imply they do this? They do not have jurisdiction over foreign banks. And any interest I might receive here in a Thai bank is also taxed here. So no tax in the US.

They don't have jurisdiction, but they can request info from the bank on your accounts. And if you earned interest, that is unearned income and you need to pay taxes on it. Sucks....

All my income in unearned...dividends and interest.

[maxman71]

Is this a joke? If not, it is beyond being pathetic, evenfor the US.

quote: "- The US Congress very recently passed a bill that required foreign banks to collect and report to the IRS US citizen ID on all their accounts."unquote.

And how does the Congress imply they do this? They do not have jurisdiction over foreign banks. And any interest I might receive here in a Thai bank is also taxed here. So no tax in the US.

You are correct; there is no guarantee that foreign banks will comply. But then there can be consequences for foreign banks that refuse to provide such information. Like refusing to take on US citizen accounts. That would block us from using Thai banks. Thailand and the US have a tax treaty that allows each country to pull records of their own citizens for purposes of enforcing tax code.

But Citicorp and BofA have branches in BKK. I would assume they would comply with this rule and that may solve the problem.

Other possibilities: The IRS may provide funds to certain foreign banks to hire a few people to dig out US citizen account holders' info and pass it on. That would soften the blow for foreign banks' compliance.

Or, with the strong current trend towards implementing global banking reforms, these reporting requirements may become part of such reforms, and if banks around the world want to play in the new global banking regime, they will have to comply. It's not just the US that is cracking down on tax collecting, other countries are doing the same thing.

[maxman71]

I didn't file a US tax return for 16 years as I thought that it wasn't required as I was living and paying taxes in other countries, had no assets or dependents in the US and etc...I then ran into another US expat who knew the score and he said 'oh, dear...you could be in a lot of trouble...'

on further investigation from a tax accountant in BKK I found that filing retro-actively for 6 previous tax years will satisfy any IRS curiosity in this regard without any penalties...however, this was 7 years ago and with all the recent legislation I'm not sure what the story presently is...

Tutiswarrior--

Not sure you're getting the correct info. If you were required to file during any of those past years and you owed money, you would be subject to penalties, interest and possibly fines from what I understand and believe.

Depending on the amount of your taxable income, you may not have been required to file anything.

But, the US does require you include all your income worldwide in making that determination. Doesn't matter if you hold assets in the US or not.

Please, don't go by what you are hearing from word of mouth, or even what I am saying. I am not a CPA, tax attorney, a current or past IRS agent or anything like that. But I have read up a lot on this.

What I strongly urge you to do is get in contact with a competent US tax professional and review your situation with them. I am just providing information and not at all advising people what to do in their specific situation. Us Yanks need to stick together and share information. We're "not in Kansas anymore Toto..."

I estimated my income for the previous 6 years as I worked for foreign companies that did not report my income to the IRS...with the exclusion I was under the limit; I worked in the UK for a number of years where university qualified engineers make about the same as rubbish collectors...I can not back up my income declaration with bank documentation if the IRS wanted to get nasty; who holds bank statements from 15 years ago?

ain't no use'n gettin' worried at this point...they ain't gonna get no money if they try to bust me 'cause I ain't got none...but they can always attempt to make my life miserable like not renewing my passport, etc...anyone notice that your social security number (AKA tax ID number) is now required for routine applications like extra passport pages?

there are indeed dark times ahead as the US treasury dept has got to find money to pay for stupid wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and ludicrous efforts to buttress monopoly capitalism at home...I try to mind my own business as an expatriate american but this will soon not be possible whatever yer income happens to be...

Kansas? who said anything about Kansas? I grew up near LA...an' I don't like dogs neither; they bite, have rabies an' fleas and are generally unpleasant creatures...and yeah...we gotta stick together as no struggle is ever won by individuals...

ever onward to victory...venceremos...

It may very be that anything going back more than so many years is off the radar. There are certain statute of limitations that apply to how far the IRS can go back. For more standard items, like being able to support deductions, I *think* it is 3 years from April 15 of the year you are supposed to file the return for the previous tax year, or 3 years from the date you actually filed the return, whichever is later. But if the unreported income amounts to 25% or more of your reported gross income, there is no limit; they can go back as far as they want.

Also, the expat deduction only applies to Fed Income tax, not for FICA (i.e. social security, medicare, etc. payroll taxes). You would get a credit for whatever similar taxes you paid in the foreign country, I seem to recall that there are forms that need to be filed to claim this tax credit; I think it is called a "Normalization Agreement" or something like that. I've never tried to claim tax credits for FICA taxes; the hassle wasn't worth it to me.

But in Thailand, for example, payroll taxes for similar items in the US are far lower in Thailand than the US, so I believe you would have to pay the difference to the US. Don't know about the UK. I don't always fall under the expat exclusion for my Fed income taxes, but I've always had to pay the FICA taxes on all my net global income.

Yep, the US is in a heckuva mess alright, and it just rubs salt in the wounds that we have a Treasury Sec who oversees the IRS, who failed to report something like 150K from a 1099 he received while contracting with the World Bank (or was it the IMF?) before he worked for the gov't. Great example for the rest of us.

The Kansas quip was just to emphasize that things are not the same as they were just a few years ago; it's a whole new ballgame.

[tutsiwarrior]

re: foreign banks and US citizen account holders I've just made an inquiry regarding an off shore account with HSBC in Jersey...couldn't do it online as a message came back saying that there was an error...I called the number on the website and they said that because I am a US citizen there is extra paper work to fill out and would I kindly ring back the next working day to discuss?

I presently have euro and USD deposit savings accounts with HSBC in the UK but there is no ATM card and no internet banking offered, gotta do everything by phone...they don't report to anyone in the US...also got a current acct with a UK bank (HSBC affiliate) and they do not report either...however, in both cases it just might be a matter of time before reporting requirements change...also have a Kasikorn account in Thailand and thus far no reporting requirements there either...

Edited May 3, 2010 by tutsiwarrior

[maxman71]

re: foreign banks and US citizen account holders I've just made an inquiry regarding an off shore account with HSBC in Jersey...couldn't do it online as a message came back saying that there was an error...I called the number on the website and they said that because I am a US citizen there is extra paper work to fill out and would I kindly ring back the next working day to discuss?

I presently have euro and USD deposit savings accounts with HSBC in the UK but there is no ATM card and no internet banking offered, gotta do everything by phone...they don't report to anyone in the US...also got a current acct with a UK bank (HSBC affiliate) and they do not report either...however, in both cases it just might be a matter of time before reporting requirements change...also have a Kasikorn account in Thailand and thus far no reporting requirements there either...

Thanks for the info. I am looking into setting up an account with Suncorp Bank in Sydney; they're paying over 6.5% (annualized return) on a 5 month CD type deposit account. Suncorp allows foreign citizens not living in Aussie to open accounts; some Aussie banks don't.

With the Aussie/US tax treaty (of which I have read the applicable parts), the Aussie gov't will take 10% of the interest. Then I should get a tax credit for that against my US taxes on the interest paid.

I will be reporting all this this interest on my US returns; just not worth the risk. While I also report my Thai accounts, the personal one pays ZERO interest and has been that way ever since I started it. The Thai co. pays minimal interest and gets reported on the Thai co returns, and also to the US gov't on the 5471's. Gotta get these accounts out of Krung Thai Bank...

[hhgz]

"Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of someone getting nailed for this?"

"Heard", as in sitting in a bar, and someone strolls by nonchalantly mentioning that his ex-business partner got nailed for this? Nope, I've never heard of it.

On the other hand, I've read about it. Researching a lawsuit, I perused the website for the US Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and found several court opinions relating to people not filing the form. Without boring you with a lot of detail, the government takes it very seriously. As with everything else in your adult life, you make a choice, and you should be prepared for the consequences.

[Carmine6]

"Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of someone getting nailed for this?"

"Heard", as in sitting in a bar, and someone strolls by nonchalantly mentioning that his ex-business partner got nailed for this? Nope, I've never heard of it.

On the other hand, I've read about it. Researching a lawsuit, I perused the website for the US Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and found several court opinions relating to people not filing the form. Without boring you with a lot of detail, the government takes it very seriously. As with everything else in your adult life, you make a choice, and you should be prepared for the consequences.

No need to look that hard. That whole UBS dust up last year was all about un-reported overseas accounts. This guy is just one of the 4,500 folks that UBS was forced to report on.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6074UH20100108

[Jingthing]

Bumping this thread for obvious reasons.

Time rapidly running out to comply with FBAR for 2009.

[pkrv]

Obama did say he was going to "mine" expats (so to speak) & looks like he is holding true to his word. I don't mind so much, but I just don't like feeling some one is pointing a gun at my head in order to do so.

Would it not be a fair comment to ask why the US guys left in the first place - PKRV - a Brit as you guys say - and BTW I am planning on upping sticks too, IMO These are no longer nice places to live and we are looking for alternatives, Is Thailand that well? that is to be seen.

Edited June 16, 2010 by pkrv

[Jingthing]

I don't this is the thread for America bashing in the context of why we left. It's about FBAR, pretty limited.

[craigt3365]

Just a quick note. First, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I did file the proper forms. I use TurboTax and it found this for me by asking if I had any foreign accounts. It then told me what to do...very nice of them to do so.

I mailed the paper forms off and hopefully, all is well. I filed the rest electronically.

[lannarebirth]

Here they come:

Analysis: Asia next in line of fire for U.S. tax police

By Jason Rhodes, Kevin Lim and Joe Rauch

ZURICH/SINGAPORE/CHARLOTTE | Wed Jul 7, 2010 11:46am EDT

After forcing Switzerland's top bank UBS to its knees for helping U.S. residents dodge taxes, U.S. authorities are moving on other banks and countries used to hide clients' cash.

http://www.reuters.c...E6663JS20100707</H1>

Edited July 9, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Jingthing]

Well, Singapore does have a rep as the Switzerland of Asia. Thailand doesn't.

[deejah]

no time to read all the posts so far

but let me get this straight:

thailnd reports bank accounts and holdings to the usa of usa citizens with 10k or more but does not report income and earnings in thailand?

yes, no, maybe so, can not be sure either way, all of the above, none of the above?

Edited July 30, 2010 by deejah

[Jingthing]

no time to read all the posts so far

but let me get this straight:

thailnd reports bank accounts and holdings to the usa of usa citizens with 10k or more but does not report income and earnings in thailand?

yes, no, maybe so, can not be sure either way, all of the above, none of the above?

This thread isn't about that. This thread is about your legal requirement to report foreign bank accounts annually to the treasury department IF the combination of all your foreign bank accounts reaches 10K USD for even one second at any point during the year. (In other words, if you have two accounts, one maxed at 6K and the other maxed at 5K, you must report them BOTH).

Your question, I can't definitely answer but I think that is coming quite soon, or by 2013. The USA is demanding that foreign banks spy on US customers for them. I fear many or all will just not accept new US accounts or even close our accounts.

[AmericanInExile]

Your question, I can't definitely answer but I think that is coming quite soon, or by 2013. The USA is demanding that foreign banks spy on US customers for them. I fear many or all will just not accept new US accounts or even close our accounts.

It's already very difficult to open domestic financial accounts for Americans living overseas (with USA based banks and brokerages) if you don't have an actual physical address (house or condo/apt.). Post Office boxes and mail-box forwarding services don't count. Soon we'll be reduced to paying in gold to buy a beer in Pattaya.

As to filing that IRS form, just tell them where to shove it!

[cloudhopper]

As to filing that IRS form, just tell them where to shove it!

It's a treasury form and the fines are huge if you tell them that.

So no doubt this rule doesn't apply to you...

[AmericanInExile]

As to filing that IRS form, just tell them where to shove it!

It's a treasury form and the fines are huge if you tell them that.

So no doubt this rule doesn't apply to you...

Well as seeing that our current Treasury Secretary didn't file proper tax forms when he was working in the private sector and that he is also the titular head of the IRS (as it is a department of the Treasury), they have very little moral claim to demand that anyone else file any required forms.

[cloudhopper]

Well as seeing that our current Treasury Secretary didn't file proper tax forms when he was working in the private sector and that he is also the titular head of the IRS (as it is a department of the Treasury), they have very little moral claim to demand that anyone else file any required forms.

No argument with that AiE but the power they wield to tax, fine and imprison remains all too real.