Thailand: A Class Struggle?

[way2muchcoffee]

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

I previously asked you if you had done a search for the budget prior to making malicious allegations. You evaded the question. Instead you decided to cast further aspersions. I have now posted a link to the budget (scroll up as it is a few posts back). I found this budget in just a few minutes, so obviously you made no attempt whatsoever to find it. You state that 'the government has no credibility in its rhetoric'. Perhaps you should reflect on your statements and consider your own rhetoric and credibility.

Edited May 3, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[yesdavy]

While economics is certainly a part of class distinction in society, it is not the only thing. Do you suppose that it is the people doing the most exaggerated wais, the most ducking past, and the most groveling that have demanded that the more privileged allow them to go through the motions of acknowledging their fate at the bottom of the ladder?

[jcbangkok]

Didn't the Democrats also give money directly to people just a few months back to "help the economy"

2,000 Baht each. What for? To buy vote legally?

To help stimulate the economy as part of a stimulus package that certainly was working great up until the reds saw things going much better for Thailand and decided to do all in their power to destroy the progress.

[Sisaketmike]

The Abhisit government has also tried to lower costs and the level of debt among the poor by providing 15 years of free education for all...

15 years free education. Surely that means free university for everyone? Or is it assuming that children start going to school aged 3 (+15 years) finishing high school at 18?

...and a 500 baht [$17] monthly allowance for elderly people.

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

Free education is something very good for a country like Thailand.

I guess you haven't been in a small village in the Isan, 500 baht/month is better than karabaokee.

[difos57]

The Abhisit government has also tried to lower costs and the level of debt among the poor by providing 15 years of free education for all...

15 years free education. Surely that means free university for everyone? Or is it assuming that children start going to school aged 3 (+15 years) finishing high school at 18?

...and a 500 baht [$17] monthly allowance for elderly people.

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

What country are you from? Are you a joke? A lot of old people in the rural live on less than that.

500 Baht a day is better than nothing, which is what they had before. This ia a step in the right direction and you condemn it.

What is your answer? Dismantle the government and bring the corruption back.

[jdinasia]

monkfish ---- I was making fun of the facile approach that most people take to politics ----- that Isaan is Red etc ...

While many parts of rural isaan ARE red, it is not accurate to think that Isaan can be judged that easily. A recent poll (polls in Thailand by nature tend to show whatever the bias of the person that writes them want you to see) suggest that Isaan is split approximately 50/50 for or against immediate house dissolution.

This would indicate that people claiming 15 million voters in Isaan are in favor of immediate house dissolution are either deliberately lieing OR just don't have a clue. Reember, Abhisit offered a referrendum on immediate house dissolution but that was refused by the Red shirt leadership. Why? Abhisit seems to believe that the majority of voters in Thailand would vote against immediate dissolution of parliament.

[jdinasia]

The Abhisit government has also tried to lower costs and the level of debt among the poor by providing 15 years of free education for all...

15 years free education. Surely that means free university for everyone? Or is it assuming that children start going to school aged 3 (+15 years) finishing high school at 18?

...and a 500 baht [$17] monthly allowance for elderly people.

How can you live from 500 Baht per month? That doesn't even pay for a crappy apartment. Is this a joke?

What country are you from? Are you a joke? A lot of old people in the rural live on less than that.

500 Baht a day is better than nothing, which is what they had before. This ia a step in the right direction and you condemn it.

What is your answer? Dismantle the government and bring the corruption back.

I think you need to re-read what was written, difos.

The talking point was social security payments of 500 baht per MONTH. The red apologist was treating this as if it was nothing (it IS low!) but that a social welfare program is being created is a HUGE improvement over nothing. People need to remember that social welfare programs cost the taxpayers money and that you can't increase the tax burden of the average tax payer too much without causing a whole new batch of problems.

[difos57]

we have to focus on the Budget because obviously nobody want it on the table....probably too much lies and manglings behind...

This is a major Anti Corruption tool: transparency of the Budget.

LOL ...

ummmm you have anything else to talk about? The budget hasn't been written yet. The opposition party is strong enough to block budget ites. Well, rather, they WOULD be powerful enough if they actually did anything as an opposition party

Screaming about something that hasn't been written yet AND that will be overseen by a LARGE and vocal opposition is kinda stupid dontcha think?

Show us what are the proposals of the Government in the Budget they present in few days... Easy

In modern countries the Budget is presented to Everybody, the French Budget 2010 is in Wikipedia...The discussion of the budget is the Major politician act in a Country. Transparency is nowadays required by Populations: this transparency is the best Anti corruption tool.

Journalists are presenting the Budget and the discussions going with in most western Countries. preparation of the budget has to be transparent to the Nation.

Also it will show the consistency between the Rhetorics and the actions....

SHOW US THE BUDGET... EVERY MODERN AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES ARE TRANSPARENT ON THIS POINT.

Thailand has a budget. You didn't even take the time to research.

Abhisit is going towards a more democratic society, if you let him. This red mob has put Thailands' Democracy back several years now. Thaksin thought Abhisit would fail as a PM and he hasn't, so he has to do something to stop Abhisit's success.

By the way, let's look at the US. They have a budget?? How is it that they can pass a health care budget but the numbers don't add up. The health care budget doesn't work. Where is the transparency there?

[difos57]

I think you need to re-read what was written, difos.

The talking point was social security payments of 500 baht per MONTH. The red apologist was treating this as if it was nothing (it IS low!) but that a social welfare program is being created is a HUGE improvement over nothing. People need to remember that social welfare programs cost the taxpayers money and that you can't increase the tax burden of the average tax payer too much without causing a whole new batch of problems.

Yes, I agree with you.

Most of the elederly are taken care of by their families and hence live off of the land costing next to nothing, so 500Baht is a lot when they had nothing before. The biggest worry in the past has been medical needs. I believe that is not a problem now.

Bringing social welfare programs creates many more problems. And what makes Thailand great, (up until now), is Thailand. We don't want to change Thailand to the western world.

[Neurath]

While economics is certainly a part of class distinction in society, it is not the only thing. Do you suppose that it is the people doing the most exaggerated wais, the most ducking past, and the most groveling that have demanded that the more privileged allow them to go through the motions of acknowledging their fate at the bottom of the ladder?

There's a rumour going around that a part of the struggle is less over whether exaggerated wais take place, but to whom they are directed.

[Jerrytheyoung]

The full transparent and open discussion of the Budget is the Best Anti Corruption tool: important in a democracy: if you have nothing to fear, it should not be an issue to discuss openly the Budget. Put it on the table: I do not believe your rhetorics until it is followed by actions. Decisions of Politicians are converted in actions in the Budget....

you do not want to show the Budget...well, in this case, you want to hide something. As simple as this... No budget, No credibility of your rhetorics

I previously asked you if you had done a search for the budget prior to making malicious allegations. You evaded the question. Instead you decided to cast further aspersions. I have now posted a link to the budget (scroll up as it is a few posts back). I found this budget in just a few minutes, so obviously you made no attempt whatsoever to find it. You state that 'the government has no credibility in its rhetoric'. Perhaps you should reflect on your statements and consider your own rhetoric and credibility.

dear Wy2muchcoffee Sorry, I have gotten some connection difficulties....

What we need to discuss now is the Budget which is going to be under the parliament fire next week from 1st october 2010 to 30st September 2011 with the Abhisit orientations, so we can check if it is true... (Education, Wealthfare....)

The budget Bureau last Budget is that one approved one year ago

[jdinasia]

I think you need to re-read what was written, difos.

The talking point was social security payments of 500 baht per MONTH. The red apologist was treating this as if it was nothing (it IS low!) but that a social welfare program is being created is a HUGE improvement over nothing. People need to remember that social welfare programs cost the taxpayers money and that you can't increase the tax burden of the average tax payer too much without causing a whole new batch of problems.

Yes, I agree with you.

Most of the elederly are taken care of by their families and hence live off of the land costing next to nothing, so 500Baht is a lot when they had nothing before. The biggest worry in the past has been medical needs. I believe that is not a problem now.

Bringing social welfare programs creates many more problems. And what makes Thailand great, (up until now), is Thailand. We don't want to change Thailand to the western world.

Adequate medical care is STILL a problem. Thaksin did a bit of good during his tenure. He built some clinics and some roads etc...

He also did a great deal of damage. The 30 baht health scheme that many people claim is his was already being researched when he latched onto it. It is/was a good idea. The implementation was particularly bad. Hospitals all of a sudden were told not to charge people more than 30 baht but the government didnt fund the system adequately. Under Abhisit the 30 baht fee has disappeared and the funding has been increased. It isn't perfect but it IS getting better.

What WE want doesn't really matter (this is one of those times where what matters is what is fair AND affordable for Thailand). All thai people deserve to share somewhat in the wealth of their nation and social welfare programs will be part of the Thai political landscape going into the future. The issue is not IF it will happen but how much and how fast it will happen.

The progress being made under the Democrats in the way of debt-relief for farmers, universal health care, universal free education etc is a great beginning. The government can and should start working on infrastructure projects in rural Thailand is another good thing to do. (Using Thai workers --- it gives jobs AND develops the country!) The penalties for graft need to be increased so that people siphoning off public funds or not abiding by labor law end up in jail and ineligible for ANY further contracts with the government.

Hospitals, clinics, public utilities, roads, irrigation and other water projects etc will be good for everyone in Thailand.

There are tons of issues that Thailand has ... and they need to be discussed by everyone ... then prioritized .. then dealt with.

[way2muchcoffee]

dear Wy2muchcoffee Sorry, I have gotten some connection difficulties....

What we need to discuss now is the Budget which is going to be under the parliament fire next week from 1st october 2010 to 30st September 2011 with the Abhisit orientations, so we can check if it is true... (Education, Wealthfare....)

The budget Bureau last Budget is that one approved one year ago

Ok. I understand your drift now. Better transparency while the budget is being drafted with more public participation/debate/discussion in the drafting process. Makes sense to me. I don't know all that much about the process in Thailand honestly.

Edited May 3, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[jdinasia]

BTW Jerry ---- not every country including modern countries are "transparent" in thier budgets. In fact, I would hazard a guess that every country is NOT transparent in their budgets! Particularly when it comes to things they don't want other people (including their own citizens) to know.

[clockworkorange]

Thanks to the TV Politburo for bringing this jewel of insight to us, the readers. What really makes me think is why a senior Democrat Party MP would speak with such wisdom, with not a hint of an anti-Thaksin agenda.

Unbiased, inspirational and non-judgmental social commentary like this cuts right through all the politics, finally shedding light on all the root causes of these intractable problems that Thailand now faces.

[Jerrytheyoung]

BTW Jerry ---- not every country including modern countries are "transparent" in thier budgets. In fact, I would hazard a guess that every country is NOT transparent in their budgets! Particularly when it comes to things they don't want other people (including their own citizens) to know.

More and more difficult to fiddle, in case of France.... an ex FM has been sued, condamned for a pair of shoes for his mistress (Luxurious-around 1,500 Euros- Probably very beautiful lady!!!) paid from the Budget....Democracy obliges. However there are several discretionary lines handled by the PM or The President (Secret Services) but the global envelope is known.

Medias play a major role surveying all the abnormalities which may appear (from any sides). In France, the satiric newspaper "Le Canard Enchaine" is well known, permanently sued but nearly never condemned because its sources are excellent.

Nearly every week a scandal is unveiled.

In a very fantastic affair, a friend of mine has been involved in the rescuing of one of their journalists: escaping from Gabon, with the French and Gabonese Secret services chasing him: It was the story of Diamonds given to our President " Giscard d'Estaing". Great respect for some journalists taking risks for the Truth. In those times, the French African Budget was very opaque.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[kissdani]

The author is a Thai member of the parliament and deputy leader of the incumbent Democrat Party.

I loved this part of the article the most.

:D

[jdinasia]

Again Jerry ---- Thailand isn't France.

I would guess that every country hides discretionary funds in its budget and has income that it doesn't report. The issue you seem to have is your own unwillingness to concede that there is a powerful opposition to supervise and oppose budget items.

Graft is a huge issue in Thailand but it is important to remember that it is a huge issue everywhere including your home that for some reason you keep comparing to Thailand.

I have heard people complain about how centralized the government is in Thailand. One of the reasons that it remains so is graft and corruption. When everything is overseen by the central accounting office it is harder to hide major graft in the provinces. Provincial areas all seem to have political machines that control local politics and if they had more discretion in the budget items for the provinces they would have more opportunity to steal.

Which, of course, leads to political reform and having even stronger criminal penalties for graft.

[jdinasia]

The author is a Thai member of the parliament and deputy leader of the incumbent Democrat Party.

I loved this part of the article the most.

Strangely enough the Irawaddee is a fairly well respected publication and clearly identifies this as an opinion piece, yet the reds on this board don't talk about the points of the article. Instead, they lock onto something that is not important in an opinion piece.

The fact that the Reds and the political arm of their illegal and violent struggle don't have any agenda other than returning Thaksin's give-aways by returning Thaksin to Thailand.

Sustainable change requires strong leadership and true democracy (with the transparency that Jerry wants -- but when it is apparent that the red leadership commits crimes people cry about them being caught.)

[ChiangMaiFun]

The author is a Thai member of the parliament and deputy leader of the incumbent Democrat Party.

I loved this part of the article the most.

Strangely enough the Irawaddee is a fairly well respected publication and clearly identifies this as an opinion piece, yet the reds on this board don't talk about the points of the article. Instead, they lock onto something that is not important in an opinion piece.

The fact that the Reds and the political arm of their illegal and violent struggle don't have any agenda other than returning Thaksin's give-aways by returning Thaksin to Thailand.

Sustainable change requires strong leadership and true democracy (with the transparency that Jerry wants -- but when it is apparent that the red leadership commits crimes people cry about them being caught.)

The larger and more expansive point (that you consistently miss) is that there is a cultural shift happening – and will continue to unfold over time.

Thaksin is merely a piece in the paradigm shift – try to think ‘outside the box’ a little and stop the ‘Thaksin is Lucifer and Reds are Dead’ mantra.

[wayfarer108]

a catching title for the article - but with no social and political analysis within, because "it is a clever marketing slogan, but it is not a true reflection of the political struggle in Thailand, which is not so easily pigeon-holed".

instead there is glorification of abhisit.

one can suspect, that the irrawaddy, in order to be published and distributed in thailand, is associated with the thai establishment or even covertly financed by them - hence the article by the deputy leader of democrats

I know the Irrawaddy editors personally. They have little sympathy for the Red movement, and it has nothing to do with their wanting approval from the government.

Kraisak has been very active in human rights issues along the Myanmar-Thailand border, another reason they allowed him his say.

Edited May 3, 2010 by wayfarer108

[wayfarer108]

There is no way that this can be termed as a class war between the rich and the poor, especially with the presence of Thaksin, the rich red leaders, and the rich village leaders on the "poor" side.

IMO, it is simply a power struggle between Thaksin supporters and everyone else.

The Thaksin supporters have used the poor, in the same way that Thaksin used the poor.

Bingo ...

[eggomaniac]

There is no way that this can be termed as a class war between the rich and the poor, especially with the presence of Thaksin, the rich red leaders, and the rich village leaders on the "poor" side.

IMO, it is simply a power struggle between Thaksin supporters and everyone else.

The Thaksin supporters have used the poor, in the same way that Thaksin used the poor.

Bingo ...

Bingo, yes, the leaders on ALL sides are of the same ilk, and if you could spend time reading my Post #33, the rank and file, street level dupes on both sides, also, have similar aspirations to each other. Their leaders send them to the front lines from the comfort of their villas and private jets.

It SHOULD be a class struggle but it is gang land warfare!

[RickBradford]

A battle between two elites -- one that has power and one that wants power. Neither is interested in the poor.

[ChiangMaiFun]

A battle between two elites -- one that has power and one that wants power. Neither is interested in the poor.

Buddha is interested in the poor and I hope, somewhere, somehow, one man (or women) arises and actually practices the teachings they all, no doubt, go to the Wat to practice (or not practice more like). Money and power is no good to them when they die - it is an illusory thing - power and money is a 'responsibility' - Thailand desperately needs a ‘good man’ – are there none?

[scorecard]

a catching title for the article - but with no social and political analysis within, because "it is a clever marketing slogan, but it is not a true reflection of the political struggle in Thailand, which is not so easily pigeon-holed".

instead there is glorification of abhisit.

one can suspect, that the irrawaddy, in order to be published and distributed in thailand, is associated with the thai establishment or even covertly financed by them - hence the article by the deputy leader of democrats

Well londonthai, if PM Abhisit is entiled to some credit, then why should it not be made public. And on this site there is opportunity for all to comment freely both negatively and positive on the details.

You might like to also remeber that PM Abhsiist has conducted several sessions with the Thai media where he told them that they could ask him any questions about any subject and to make criticisms if they wished too. At these 'events' he listened, didn't interupt, then made clear and specific respsonses.

Thaksin on the other hand totally controlled the various arms of the state media and instructed them to report positively (glorigying himself and his vote buying buddies) and with no discussion. He also intimidated the private media, and quickly sued numerous people who dared to ask questions he didn't like (read, didn't make him look good).

You mention ".....in order to be published and distributed in thailand, is associated with the thai establishment or even covertly financed by them - hence the article by the deputy leader of democrats." Perhaps you might like to explain what unerlies this comment.

Perhaps your suggesting that the Abhiist government is/was censoring / controlling the press. Is this what your suggesting? If so, please share some specific details.

If your referring to taking the red shirts channel off the air, because they were spewing out continuous lies all linked to encouraging people to 'burn Bangkok' etc., playing doctored (scientifically proven) tapes over and over again is a little different. Perhaps you'd like to share your thoughts on this. Perhaps you beleive it's OK for political parties and activist groups to manipulate naive people (and i'm not suggesting that all the red shirts are naive).

I say again, thaksin in fact controlled and manipulated the media for his own agrandisment, and now that some time has passed and there is more open comment, many respected economists have severely criticized 'thaksinomics' as unsustainbale and in fact longer-term causing further hardships for many of the poor.

[4223rhodes]

I've spent the last few days at the Red Shirt protest and would not describe it as a class struggle at all. It was a very open atmosphere where rich mingled with the poor and middle class and I felt quite welcome to enjoy the spiritual atmosphere at dawn, the relaxed atmosphere in the heat of day and the festive music and speeches of the evening. I urge all those who are interested in Thai culture to enjoy this demonstration; it will not be there forever and it would be a shame to miss.

[lannarebirth]

I've spent the last few days at the Red Shirt protest and would not describe it as a class struggle at all. It was a very open atmosphere where rich mingled with the poor and middle class and I felt quite welcome to enjoy the spiritual atmosphere at dawn, the relaxed atmosphere in the heat of day and the festive music and speeches of the evening. I urge all those who are interested in Thai culture to enjoy this demonstration; it will not be there forever and it would be a shame to miss.

"They're selling postcards of the hanging

They're painting the passports brown

The beauty parlor is filled with sailors

The circus is in town"